Will Regen ever be reworked?

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Gimped out meaning actual mitigation provided. Playing like a blaster means hopping around the battlefield like a bunny on crack and/or leaning on the big buff T5 pools powers. I'm not putting words into your mouth. I'm doing nothing but taking what's being said by the pro-regen crowd and comparing it to other playstyles and builds.

 

Again, two completely different arguments getting crossed. One is: I like the set as is. This is an unarguable opinion. The other is: The set provides less mitigation than its counterparts. This is not an opinion.

Less toggle/auto mitigation. Yes, I agree.

 

Less mitigation? Jury is still out from the looks of it. You are the only one here claiming that click mitigation isn’t mitigation.

 

And no I don’t use any T5’s besides Cross Punch so you can drop that talking point.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

You are the only one here claiming that click mitigation isn’t mitigation.

 

Who's putting words in whose mouth? I called clicks hoops. I never stated that heals and regen clicks weren't mitigation.

[Erratic1]

18 minutes ago, Naraka said:

[EDIT] OMG, I just had flashbacks of leveling an /Elec Brute. Utter garbage... Until you finally get your heal with slots in it ...

 

One of my most powerful characters on Live was a DM/Elec Brute. Nigh unto unstoppable.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

Less mitigation? Jury is still out from the looks of it.

 

Excellent. Now you're getting somewhere. What test would you like to propose? We need something other than "it works for me because I enjoy taking my time, pulling, kiting," etc, etc.

[Erratic1]

34 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yes, the main reason people use MoG more than other T9’s is because MoG doesn’t have a crash. And because it’s on a reliable short recharge timer. Other sets build under the premise that using their T9 would be a bad idea, and Regen and Scrapper/Stalker Ice Armor build under the premise that using their T9 is a fantastic idea.

 

Well Bio does use its T9....

 

But I believe I already posted an image to this thread about Bio. 😄

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Who's putting words in whose mouth? I called clicks hoops. I never stated that heals and regen clicks weren't mitigation.

Oh ok, so your claim that Regen has the least mitigation was just completely erroneous and baseless. I thought perhaps there was some sort of logic behind it, like you’d taken the clicks out of the equation.

 

I’m starting to think you should continue actually playing your new regen.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

We need something other than "it works for me because I enjoy taking my time, pulling, kiting," etc, etc.

I never do this on melee.

 

I propose the first test be actually finishing your regen and playing it, to answer your question. Since we know that hasn’t happened yet.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Oh ok, so your claim that Regen has the least mitigation was just completely erroneous and baseless. I thought perhaps there was some sort of logic behind it, like you’d taken the clicks out of the equation.

 

I’m starting to think you should continue actually playing your new regen.

 

Ahh, insults. The last bastion of the wrong when caught being wrong.

 

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I never do this on melee.

 

I don't care. What's your test plan to prove that regen provides equitable mitigation to the other armor sets? Or do you really have absolutely nothing?

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Excellent. Now you're getting somewhere. What test would you like to propose? We need something other than "it works for me because I enjoy taking my time, pulling, kiting," etc, etc.

As a test why don't you and Arcane both run an SO only Scrapper through the Trapdoor test?

 

Let's say... MA/SR for Bill and MA/Regen for Arcane. First test on 0/x4, second on +1/x4, etc. Then post times AND deaths.

 

If that doesn't prove that Regen has less mitigation than other Scrapper powersets I don't know what will.

[arcane]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

I don't care. What's your test plan to prove that regen provides equitable mitigation to the other armor sets? Or do you really have absolutely nothing?

I don’t have a plan because I don’t spend my gaming time devising tests to prove a point on a forum. Laugh at the response all you want, but since you ARE something of a testing expert, perhaps you could give me a hand with that.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Let's say... MA/SR for Bill and MA/Regen for Arcane. First test on 0/x4, second on +1/x4, etc. Then post times AND deaths.

 

Works for me but it should be a group effort. Get all the secondaries into the mix.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

As a test why don't you and Arcane both run an SO only Scrapper through the Trapdoor test?

 

Let's say... MA/SR for Bill and MA/Regen for Arcane. First test on 0/x4, second on +1/x4, etc. Then post times AND deaths.

 

If that doesn't prove that Regen has less mitigation than other Scrapper powersets I don't know what will.

I’d consider making an SO alt build on my Ice/Regen brute when I feel like it. I don’t know what an SO build even looks like anymore, but it’s not like it’d be expensive..

 

I can’t make any new characters because I already told too many friends I promised to stop at 100 level 50’s.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Naraka]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

One of my most powerful characters on Live was a DM/Elec Brute. Nigh unto unstoppable.

 

I had a whole ordeal leveling a Sav/Elec Brute. He ran out of END, and his resistances mostly were just a countdown of how long he could last before he had to run or die. Having played out an Elec/Elec Brute and had a decent time with it, I thought the problem was Savage Melee...

 

It was actually Elec armors early performance and needing mitigation from your melee set. Expensive toggles, low utility, resistances spread out and a moderate heal that was a grind to get to. Even after getting the heal, it only makes a difference after you can get some slotting going. Everything still feels expensive until you get the AoE drain. Eventually you can make it work but it feels mostly incomplete until around lvl 30.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Works for me but it should be a group effort. Get all the secondaries into the mix.

Maybe a series of tests with MA/everything else, and then post results then?

 

I suggest MA specifically because it doesn't have much AoE or debuffs that might favor a particular powerset.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I can’t make any new characters because I already told too many friends I promised to stop at 100 level 50’s.

Make it on the test server, where it'll only be temporary no matter what you want.

 

Unless this is really just an excuse to not prove your point...

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Make it on the test server, where it'll only be temporary no matter what you want.

 

Unless this is really just an excuse to not prove your point...

No, I hadn’t thought about it. 
 

My only excuse if I decide not to would be that I never test anything and as sweet as proving a point sounds, we’re still talking about a colossal waste of time.

 

I’ll keep an eye out ok? But you people don’t own my god damn weekend.

 

EDIT: wait I lied, I have done pylon “tests” before

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Erratic1]

13 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

I had a whole ordeal leveling a Sav/Elec Brute. He ran out of END, and his resistances mostly were just a countdown of how long he could last before he had to run or die. Having played out an Elec/Elec Brute and had a decent time with it, I thought the problem was Savage Melee...

 

Savage Melee's inherent mechanics give you an endurance savings when you maintain stacks (admittedly minor over time when you factor in them also boosting recharge). I have reservations about ascribing endurance woes to that set. I did for up a Savage/EA scrapper (so even more +Recharge at work) and do not recall endurance being a horrible problem (say like on my Rad Melee/Shield scrapper).

 

 

13 minutes ago, Naraka said:

It was actually Elec armors early performance and needing mitigation from your melee set. Expensive toggles, low utility, resistances spread out and a moderate heal that was a grind to get to. Even after getting the heal, it only makes a difference after you can get some slotting going. Everything still feels expensive until you get the AoE drain. Eventually you can make it work but it feels mostly incomplete until around lvl 30.

 

DM may have mitigated some of the issues for me since it brings a heal to the table at level 8 and an endurance recovery power at level 18 so you have healing/endurance tools early. But I also am a stickler for slotting toggles with endurance cost reduction (one slot) and attack powers with either one or two slots of reduction depending on how tight endurance is since attacks are where you are really spending your endurance as a melee. It goes without saying that Stamina gets 3-slotted with Endurance mods ASAP.

 

Edit: On a Brute at low levels you do not need to focus so much on Damage enhancements since you have Fury, so I am quite willing to put Endurance Reduction in attack powers and worry about getting them up to three damage slots post-30.

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Erratic1

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’ll keep an eye out ok? But you people don’t own my god damn weekend.

Oh, but I doooo own your weekend!

 

*dangles shiny object* "You are feeling sleeeepy. You want to test this weekend. When you wake you will feel refreshed and filled with a renewed desire to prove Billz wrong. Wake!"

 

Well, how you spend your weekend is up to you, of course. Hopefully you'll find the time to run the test. I'd like to see the results myself.  😁

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Savage Melee's inherent mechanics give you an endurance savings when you maintain stacks (admittedly minor over time when you factor in them also boosting recharge). I have reservations about ascribing endurance woes to that set. I did for up a Savage/EA scrapper (so even more +Recharge at work) and do not recall endurance being a horrible problem (say like on my Rad Melee/Shield scrapper).

 

 

 

DM may have mitigated some of the issues for me since it brings a heal to the table at level 8 and an endurance recovery power at level 18 so you have healing/endurance tools early. But I also am a stickler for slotting toggles with endurance cost reduction (one slot) and attack powers with either one or two slots of reduction depending on how tight endurance is since attacks are where you are really spending your endurance as a melee. It goes without saying that Stamina gets 3-slotted with Endurance mods ASAP.

If I'm not mistaken, Elec armor toggles are not as cheap as, say Dark Armor. Couple that with an early damage aura and you end up with it being cheaper to run DA early on than Elec.

 

Yeah, Savage had an END discount but it also has a penalty built in as well. Sure, you can just not use your blood stacks or only expend them when their not full but then you're looking at fluctuating END discounts. Probably not something to rely on... It's only a moderate to minor bonus.

 

I think important factors of leveling a melee character is kill speed, cc/debuff mitigation and animation speed. I feel Savage isn't that bad but it might be a bad fit for Elec armor to start off. I'm sure it gets better when you start proccing it later on but I was making an example of the set early/mid level.

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Oh, but I doooo own your weekend!

 

*dangles shiny object* "You are feeling sleeeepy. You want to test this weekend. When you wake you will feel refreshed and filled with a renewed desire to prove Billz wrong. Wake!"

 

Well, how you spend your weekend is up to you, of course. Hopefully you'll find the time to run the test. I'd like to see the results myself.  😁

Just note I haven’t (1) used SO’s, (2) fought Trapdoor or (3) booted up Test Server in probably 10 years, so this is not a negligible ask and I would have to get my bearings on a couple of things. I will agree to sign up for /regen and compromise on *EVENTUALLY* if organized testing is so deeply desired by everyone else.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Yes, it matters to me how much DPS is lost or how much more time it takes me to wipe out a map, due to how much time I have to spend kiting around and constantly clicking on powers from my secondary and/or pools just to keep from eating dirt. I understand that it doesn't matter to you and that this is why you feel the set is fine as is.

 

To be fair though, if he can solo the mobs of an ITF at +4/x8, I would be slightly impressed since those mobs can floor your defense to nothing in no time. I would be even more impressed if he could solo the mobs using Werner Rules. (or whatever the name was). So far only my two best built Tanks can handle the mobs using those rules. If he could solo those mobs, I would be forced to eat a bit of crow.

[Bill Z Bubba]

MA/SR nuthin but SOs. 2.26% shy of softcap to all positions. 17.55% SL resists. No elude. No shadow meld. End won't be an issue with 3 slotted conserve power.

 

Could also go the blaster route and just load up on shadow meld, rune of protection, unleash potential, etc but that sounds awful. Probably doable though. Course, that would completely negate the test since we'd only be testing how broken some T5 pool powers are.

 

Spoiler

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[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

To be fair though, if he can solo the mobs of an ITF at +4/x8, I would be slightly impressed since those mobs can floor your defense to nothing in no time. I would be even more impressed if he could solo the mobs using Werner Rules. (or whatever the name was). So far only my two best built Tanks can handle the mobs using those rules. If he could solo those mobs, I would be forced to eat a bit of crow.

 

Multiple ATs can and have soloed regular max diff ITFs as well as Werner rules ITFs. I have no doubt that @Troo will/did manage it. The question will be how long did it take and were there any faceplants. Where there's a will and all that.

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

MA/SR nuthin but SOs. 2.26% shy of softcap to all positions. 17.55% SL resists. No elude. No shadow meld. End won't be an issue with 3 slotted conserve power.

 

Could also go the blaster route and just load up on shadow meld, rune of protection, unleash potential, etc but that sounds awful. Probably doable though. Course, that would completely negate the test since we'd only be testing how broken some T5 pool powers are.

 

  Hide contents

 

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Are you not just testing how much pool def you can stack?

[arcane]

I’m genuinely puzzled by all the comments about T5 pool powers. I like those on occasion just for variety (and I love Enflame so end up with Rune often) but I thought Speed/Leaping/Fighting/Leadership was still definitively the optimal meta. With Flight as the most popular alternative.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane