Accuracy vs toHit. I have questions.

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

To clarify, are you saying the reason to pick Focused Accuracy over Tactics is because of the tohit debuff resistance, or because of the accuracy bonus?

I think they're also picking it because it means they don't have to spend a Pool on Leadership and can grab a different Pool or pick up another power in a current Pool (since you'd need two picks to get Tactics whereas you only need one pick to get Focused Accuracy).

Edited February 15, 2022 by ForeverLaxx

[Mezmera]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

To clarify, are you saying the reason to pick Focused Accuracy over Tactics is because of the tohit debuff resistance, or because of the accuracy bonus?

 

It can't be both?  Plus it's also great that it's a minimal power pick commitment for something arguably better in most areas than Tactics which you need to take an almost ineffectual power to get.   

 

The endurance cost is very manageable.  My tank runs all kinds of toggles along with FA and I even leave sprint and Mighty Leap running and I don't even take Conserve Power.  I think the zomg the endurance cost angle is a bit overstated.  

[Marshal_General]

I always allot an extra slot for FA for 2 +5 End Reduction IOs and generally only run it when I need it unless I can afford the extra end which I can on some builds. I always try to have 2 more end recovery than my passive end consumption.

[Linea]

I always set Mids -> Options -> Config -> Exemp -> BasetoHit -> 48 ... that takes care of 95% of the problem, and simulates 50+1 vs 54.

You can adjust that number for additional issues as well, like armor or to-hit debuffs.  That should take care of 99.9% of issues.

 

Rarely, very rarely, I'll edit a custom version of mids so I can dynamically apply various buffs and debuffs to simulate different situations.

[Mezmera]

I'd also like to point out that the devs themselves said there will be a larger grouping of content with enemies that will harshly affect your accuracy/tohitt and or have high defense hence the auto hit sleep powers in anticipation of more of these types of engagements.  That tohitt debuff resistance is going to be gold moving forward.  

Edited February 15, 2022 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

It might make it simpler to just think of ToHit as the opposite of Defense. Every point of +ToHit counteracts one point of +Defense, The reality isn't quite that simple, but it's a baseline to help you understand it.

 

Most enemies as far as I know don't resist -ToHit, so if you hit them with -10% ToHit and they are the same level as you, you just effectively provided anyone they attack with +10 Defense.

 

-ToHit on players is more complex, because ToHit is modified by Accuracy (Accuracy multiplies the ToHit value). But the analogy still basically holds, its just that the final value is then adjusted again. The mathematical takeaway being that a whole lot of extra Accuracy won't really help you much against a big -ToHit debuff, and at a certain point where you have a huge ToHit bonus extra Accuracy no longer really matters.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Linea said:

I always set Mids -> Options -> Config -> Exemp -> BasetoHit -> 48 ... that takes care of 95% of the problem, and simulates 50+1 vs 54.

You can adjust that number for additional issues as well, like armor or to-hit debuffs.  That should take care of 99.9% of issues.

 

 

Great advice. This is one update to Mids I'd like to see, having hit chances listed for +0, +1, +2, +3, +4 instead of only one at a time. Would help people understand better how their ToHit and Accuracy contributes to hitting in real game scenarios.

 

 

[Ironblade]

20 hours ago, macskull said:

I dunno, it's a stupid high end cost for a small acc and tohit buff. The tohit debuff resistance is nice I suppose, but 99 times out of 100 you're better off just taking Tactics.

Agreed.  If you're taking one, take Tactics.  But my main has accuracy bonuses from sets, the Kismet unique, Tactics *AND* Focused Accuracy.

When Paragon Protectors use Moment of Glory, I laugh at them and stomp them.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Ironblade said:

Agreed.  If you're taking one, take Tactics.  But my main has accuracy bonuses from sets, the Kismet unique, Tactics *AND* Focused Accuracy.

When Paragon Protectors use Moment of Glory, I laugh at them and stomp them.

My personal favorite is my Cold/Ice/Power Defender who can make his To Hit in Combat Attributes turn a pretty light blue.

Power Build Up + Aim + Tactics all fully enhanced (5 slotted Adjusted Targeting).  

 

But yes the vast majority of the time I don't find FA worth the cost.  

 

And on the general topic, Accuracy is why level 54 AVs are still fairly dangerous to a soft capped character.  After you figure out your +defense vs their to hit you're at 5%.  Great!, right?  Well yes but now you figure their Accuracy into it.  4 levels higher that's 1.4 accuracy, AV rank that's 1.5 accuracy --> 1.4 × 1.5 = 2.1.  So 5 × 2.1 is 10.5 or they're going to hit you 10.5% of the time not 5% (and that's assuming the powers they're using don't have +accuracy).  And they do it a whole lot harder and unless you can be the first to figure out how to debuff accuracy there's not anything you can do about except go ouchie and Heal/Regen up before the next blow successfully lands.

[JnEricsonx]

Leadership.  You can always get more Accuracy from set bonuses.

[macskull]

17 hours ago, Mezmera said:

It can't be both?  Plus it's also great that it's a minimal power pick commitment for something arguably better in most areas than Tactics which you need to take an almost ineffectual power to get. 

I mean, it can be both, but saying it's arguably better than Tactics just isn't true. The accuracy bonus might be nice at lower levels where slots and powers are at a premium (like Eagle Eye, which is available for Tac Arrow Blasters at level 20, or Combat Training: Offensive for Widows at level 2) but by the time you hit level 50 and have the slots, powers, and enhancements it's a different ballgame. ED-capped Tanker Tactics gives everyone 16% tohit and ED-capped Focused Accuracy gives you 8% tohit and 20% acc. There are cases where FA will give you a higher final hit chance but this only occurs when you're seriously underslotting acc in your powers (like, less than an SO's worth). Regarding the Leadership prerequisites being "almost ineffectual," I'm not sure I agree. Enhanced Tanker Maneuvers is about 4% defense which isn't a lot but it does add up especially when stacked on a team and you can use it as a set bonus mule. Assault... sure, I'll give you that one. The way damage bonuses in this game work make Assault pretty unappealing unless you're a VEAT who can double-stack it.

 

Arguing from a tohit debuff and perception debuff resistance, the decision starts to make a bit more sense... but those are fringe cases and I'm not sure it's worth the opportunity cost. Sure, going into Energy Mastery means you don't have to take Leadership but that means you lose out on Soul Mastery or Fire Mastery.

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, macskull said:

I mean, it can be both, but saying it's arguably better than Tactics just isn't true. The accuracy bonus might be nice at lower levels where slots and powers are at a premium (like Eagle Eye, which is available for Tac Arrow Blasters at level 20, or Combat Training: Offensive for Widows at level 2) but by the time you hit level 50 and have the slots, powers, and enhancements it's a different ballgame. ED-capped Tanker Tactics gives everyone 16% tohit and ED-capped Focused Accuracy gives you 8% tohit and 20% acc. There are cases where FA will give you a higher final hit chance but this only occurs when you're seriously underslotting acc in your powers (like, less than an SO's worth). Regarding the Leadership prerequisites being "almost ineffectual," I'm not sure I agree. Enhanced Tanker Maneuvers is about 4% defense which isn't a lot but it does add up especially when stacked on a team and you can use it as a set bonus mule. Assault... sure, I'll give you that one. The way damage bonuses in this game work make Assault pretty unappealing unless you're a VEAT who can double-stack it.

 

Arguing from a tohit debuff and perception debuff resistance, the decision starts to make a bit more sense... but those are fringe cases and I'm not sure it's worth the opportunity cost. Sure, going into Energy Mastery means you don't have to take Leadership but that means you lose out on Soul Mastery or Fire Mastery.

 

Okay besides the 6% difference in added tohitt easily covered with things like Kismet and Build Up type of powers what exactly are the other benefits that make it so much better than Focused Accuracy?  Again I don't care about the endurance cost because it's easily managed.

 

Tactics is good because it stacks with the team.  Okay I'm with you there and most ATs yes I can see it better to have Leadership pools to contribute to the team, like say Defenders since they get some great values from Assault/Tactics.  

 

A solo character I see so much more potential in not having spikes of -tohitt affecting you though and an added 20% accuracy is never a bad thing to have.  The main tank of the team definitely should only be concerned with how best to maintain their top form at all times for the teams sake.  A wicked -tohitt spike on the team from Carnies, CoT, Arachnos or anything else they may have cooking is going to get the team into a lot of trouble.  Now say the tank can shrug that off and still get full effect out of their Foot Stomp, Shield Bash or Taunts, that's going to keep the team in good shape as opposed to having Tactics and whiffing like everyone else now is. 

 

So in most instances Leadership is good for feeding the team.  If you're the main tank, solo a lot or would like to free up a pool by getting the most attractive power from the Leadership pool at minimal cost then I see Focused Accuracy as the better route for some.   

[Onlyasandwich]

I used to hate on focused accuracy as well. The numbers do seem a bit low for the cost at first glance.

 

I've grown to rather like it these days though.

 

Not only do I enjoy the near immunity to tohit debuffs as many have mentioned, but the 20% acc is actually quite valuable in more proc focused builds where local and global acc can be otherwise lacking. This lets me really juice the procs on builds with proper end support.

 

If you have some tohit from FA itself, kismet, or maybe even tactics, that 20% makes a huge difference when multiplied through the formula if your acc totals were on the low end previously. It's not very impactful if you have strong acc totals already.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

Now say the tank can shrug that off and still get full effect out of their Foot Stomp, Shield Bash or Taunts, that's going to keep the team in good shape as opposed to having Tactics and whiffing like everyone else now is.

FWIW Gauntlet's non-AoE portion and Taunt are both autohit.

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

FWIW Gauntlet's non-AoE portion and Taunt are both autohit.

 

And some tanks without a heal think outside the box and use the off brand non-autohit taunt, unless you're telling me they coded Provoke as autohit for tanks as well?  Which why would they.  The point was more so that you won't be hitting anything with your powers if you're debuffed to hell with your tohitt which easily can happen and your Tactics ain't fixing you.  

 

There's a reason people avoid Carnies and those types of enemies.  If you want to plan for bland engagements yes take Tactics.  But maybe some people like to plan to be as good as they can be against anything thrown at them.

 

You're way behind the curve on this one sorry Mac.  

[macskull]

18 hours ago, Mezmera said:

There's a reason people avoid Carnies and those types of enemies

I'm preeeeeeeeetty sure that has more to do with all the psi damage, end drain, frequent mezzes, and annoying phasing bosses.

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

I'm preeeeeeeeetty sure that has more to do with all the psi damage, end drain, frequent mezzes, and annoying phasing bosses.

 

That's all a factor sure which add up along with that nasty tohitt debuffing. 

 

There's lots of melee with end drain resistance or lots of characters can get their defenses in order to avoid these end drains.  Psi damage is meh, you can build to resist or avoid it.  The mezzing, well melee and doms have no issue there.  The phasing bosses are annoying I'll give you that, its why I aim to control them first.  

 

On my dom none of this gives me issues except for that tohitt debuff.  Which I'm pretty certain every character can build themselves to avoid the things you've identified except for that -tohitt debuff unless you're aware to take Focused Accuracy.... 

[oedipus_tex]

The most nightmarish ToHit debuff I can think of is enemies with stacked Hurricanes in the AE. The fact that it debuffs Range too (technically resistable if it works like the player power, but nothing I can think of provides -Range resist) makes it one of the truly terrifying sights to see running at you. If they get on top of you before you can mezz or detoggle the canes somehow, it will send you screaming for an autohit power ASAP.

Edited February 17, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[KaizenSoze]

27 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The most nightmarish ToHit debuff I can think of is enemies with stacked Hurricanes in the AE. The fact that it debuffs Range too (technically resistable if it works like the player power, but nothing I can think of provides -Range resist) makes it one of the truly terrifying sights to see running at you. If they get on top of you before you can mezz or detoggle the canes somehow, it will send you screaming for an autohit power ASAP.

First, I am curious what AE mission that is... 

 

Second, this should be the theme song for that mission...

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by KaizenSoze

[KaizenSoze]

42 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

On my dom none of this gives me issues except for that tohitt debuff.  Which I'm pretty certain every character can build themselves to avoid the things you've identified except for that -tohitt debuff unless you're aware to take Focused Accuracy.... 

I do enjoy confusing carnie pets.

 

Confuse the phantom and his decoy attacks him.

 

Confuse the dark servant and they cannot hit jack.

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Confuse the dark servant and they cannot hit jack.

 

Yeah the phasing boss and this pet are the two things I stay vigilant towards.  If I get distracted and let the dark servant hit me with their debuff it can get dicey.  

[oedipus_tex]

34 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

The most nightmarish ToHit debuff I can think of is enemies with stacked Hurricanes in the AE. The fact that it debuffs Range too (technically resistable if it works like the player power, but nothing I can think of provides -Range resist) makes it one of the truly terrifying sights to see running at you. If they get on top of you before you can mezz or detoggle the canes somehow, it will send you screaming for an autohit power ASAP.

 

 

I have a mission like that in the AE. It's unfortunately currently broken and needs a republish. The hurricane enemies are only one specific end boss group, and they don't ambush. 

It's very easy to create enemies like that to see how it works. If you want to make it extra terrifying, let them have Steamy Mist (goodbye ability to Confuse them). And you still have a secondary set to provide them... Sonic Blast, anyone? 🙂 


While we're on that topic, Benumb is probably the most BS power you never want to encounter on an enemy mob. Not related to ToHit. You just really don't want to experience it. The enemy version as far as I can tell from public files is identical to the player version, and debuffs basically everything. I've never seen a mission designer include it in a mission, for good reason. Some of these challenge mode missions that are coming up tho... hmm.

[Mezmera]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

While we're on that topic, Benumb is probably the most BS power you never want to encounter on an enemy mob. Not related to ToHit. You just really don't want to experience it. The enemy version as far as I can tell from public files is identical to the player version, and debuffs basically everything. I've never seen a mission designer include it in a mission, for good reason. Some of these challenge mode missions that are coming up tho... hmm.

 

If you think all those debuffs in Benumb are bad I wouldn't look at Trick Arrow then.  Just thank your lucky stars Manticore doesn't have any of those arrows in his quiver.  

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

 

If you think all those debuffs in Benumb are bad I wouldn't look at Trick Arrow then.  Just thank your lucky stars Manticore doesn't have any of those arrows in his quiver.  

 

 

A source of bitter joy is unsuspecting teams inviting a Trick Arrow on Posi 1 only to get destroyed when the clone blinds them all with Flash Arrow. I used to warn people but sometimes curiosity leads me to stand an extra few seconds on the stairs to watch everyone wipe.

[Hedgefund]

I was on an all TA team that did Posi 1 and it was by far the most nightmarish Posi 1 I've ever experienced.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Hedgefund said:

I was on an all TA team that did Posi 1 and it was by far the most nightmarish Posi 1 I've ever experienced.

Yeesh.  Definitely want to be doing the Alpha strike in those circumstances.

 

And I believe some of the mobs in the 801 series in AE use Benumb.