Debuff Resistance/Status Protection power pool?

[Major_Decoy]

4 minutes ago, macskull said:

I still think that's very unlikely - Powerhouse explicitly stated during the Blaster secondary rework that those secondaries which granted mez protection intentionally only granted protection against one, maybe two, types. I don't see any reason why that same logic would not be extended to the rest of the ranged ATs.

I still think my idea is workable: You get mag four Status Protection all as a duration buff after a self-revive. The buff lasts two minutes, the revive recharges in two minutes.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

I still think that's very unlikely - Powerhouse explicitly stated during the Blaster secondary rework that those secondaries which granted mez protection intentionally only granted protection against one, maybe two, types. I don't see any reason why that same logic would not be extended to the rest of the ranged ATs.

 

Was he ONLY talking about blaster secondaries? If so, fine. They're blasters. If they get any mez protection at all from their secondary yay for them.

 

But defenders granting mez protection?

Faraday Cage: Everything.

Clear Mind: Everything.

Dispersion Bubble: Hold, Stun, Immob even to the user.

Increase Density: Everything.

Antidote: Everything...

etc

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Major_Decoy said:

I still think my idea is workable: You get mag four Status Protection all as a duration buff after a self-revive. The buff lasts two minutes, the revive recharges in two minutes.

 

But then I have to change my battlecry to "Stop or I'll Die!" and willfully be the worst player in any given situation just so that I'll have mez protection.

 

Big ass /jranger on that idea.

[macskull]

19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Was he ONLY talking about blaster secondaries? If so, fine. They're blasters. If they get any mez protection at all from their secondary yay for them.

 

But defenders granting mez protection?

Faraday Cage: Everything.

Clear Mind: Everything.

Dispersion Bubble: Hold, Stun, Immob even to the user.

Increase Density: Everything.

Antidote: Everything...

etc

I think comparing mez protection to everything that affects yourself and is obtained via a pool power is a bit different than your examples - you'll notice every targeted ally mez protection power did not get the "all ally buffs are now AoEs" treatment. Increase Density did, sort of - the mez protection portion only applies to the main target. Faraday Cage and Dispersion Bubble have their own drawbacks but at the end of the day the design intent seems to be "if you do not have mez protection through your own sets you need to team with someone else who does if you want it more than just a short amount of time."

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

I think comparing mez protection to everything that affects yourself and is obtained via a pool power is a bit different than your examples - you'll notice every targeted ally mez protection power did not get the "all ally buffs are now AoEs" treatment. Increase Density did, sort of - the mez protection portion only applies to the main target. Faraday Cage and Dispersion Bubble have their own drawbacks but at the end of the day the design intent seems to be "if you do not have mez protection through your own sets you need to team with someone else who does if you want it more than just a short amount of time."

 

I get it. I think it's wrong. I find it grossly unfair and bad design that only meleers and ONE buff set get useful mez protection. Edit: Oops.. and Sentinels.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Luminara]

Out of a total 2115 primary/secondary combinations available in the entire game, 1855 have some means of achieving status protection, if we include Indomitable Will (controller Psionic Mastery), the blaster ATO and T1/T2 "ha ha, I can still kill you" anti-mez ability (as well as their varied status protection options in the secondaries), and masterminds' "my powers work even when I'm mezzed" functionality (henches).  ~87.7% of the possible permutations are given a free pass in the mez department, without touching the Sorcery pool, or Break Frees, or the P2W amplifier which grants status protection.

 

And the remaining 260 defender and corruptor pairings are fucked, because "the design" says they have to be.  And these are the ones most in need, because they're locked into that imbecilic toggle-drop rule which states that their toggles are subject to being shut down simply because they use the other side of the tohit or damage equations.  All of the other combos in the game are free to affect foes at their leisure, whereas the ~12.3% who need their toggles to function because they don't have the same status protection options... are denied.  They either take it up the ass, burn inf*, fill their trays with Break Frees, or get used to spending 2/3rds of everything they do in-game waiting for Rune of Protection to recharge.

 

This is an outdated philosophy, it's based on an abandoned design, it's biased, it's unbalanced and it's bullshit.  It's not even rational at this point.  These are defenders and corruptors, with 0.65 and 0.75 damage mods, and comparatively low damage attack scalars and HP low enough to be in serious jeopardy with only a couple of good hits.  They're not brutes.  They're not scrappers.  They aren't one-shotting Hami.  Refusing ~12% of the players the same freedom afforded to the other ~88% is discrimination, not balance, not good design.

And it's not even a question of power creep, it's a matter of quality of life.  It's not having to retoggle twice every minute.  It's not having to hoof it back to the mission after being mezzed and hammered into the ground (because those toggles provided the only damage mitigation they had) again and again and again.  It's not having to carry a tray full of Break Frees instead of Insights to counter -Perception, Rages to buff their damage, Respites and CaBs to move along more quickly, et cetera.  It's equality.

 

Allowing that remaining ~12% to experience the same quality of life that everyone else enjoys wouldn't destroy the game.  Mez is still a threat, even with mag 10 status protection.  We can still bite off more than we can chew.  It's time to stop forcing defenders and corruptors to settle for crumbs.  End the inequality.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

It's time to stop forcing defenders and corruptors to settle for crumbs.  End the inequality.

 

Ok, @arcane, you downvoted the concept. Please explain why.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

the blaster ATO and T1/T2 "ha ha, I can still kill you" anti-mez ability

 

Sometimes. The rest of the time the boss kills them because their T1/T2 attacks don't do enough damage to matter.

[Spaghetti Betty]

So, I'm kinda on @Bill Z Bubba's side on this one, at least on the mez protection bit. I tend to not play Blasters/Insert squishy here too much when I can just play another AT that has mez protection and won't die and deals a dump truck of damage.

 

But, part of me also feels that suddenly granting those ATs mez protection makes them lose a little bit of identity, even if it is at the cost of a pool power pick. So what? I just won't take Hasten if it means I can absorb even 1 mez or two and keep playing, because mez is dumb. I don't mind being grounded, but knowing I'm pretty much just waiting for a timer to run out is annoying. And no, I don't consider Incarnates a factor in this because they're a separate problem entirely.

 

However, I could see this idea being used for new Epic Pools. I could totally wait til 35 for free mez protection on my Blasters. Those pools are meant to stretch the limit of what your AT is capable of anyways. Scorp Shield or Mez Protection? *sweats*

 

As for the Debuff Resistance portion, it would have to be a really small amount to not be broken, but I think could benefit tons of toons in different ways.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[Spaghetti Betty]

Disregard, still learning desktop UI

Edited February 15, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

And it's not even a question of power creep, it's a matter of quality of life.  

And that's how the slippery slope is greased.

 

You say mez is still a threat. Okay, how?

 

And not just to some Blaster or Defender without mez protection. Tell me when is mez a threat to a Willpower Stalker. Or a SR tanker. I'd like tangible examples.

[Rudra]

With Mag 10 mez protection, you need to be facing some seriously stiff mez opposition. Or a pair of Dark Ring Mistresses backing up those Illusionists... Or a few Sappers backing up those Zeus Titans with their Hercules Titan support... especially if they are higher level... ... maybe a trial AV... ... ... so yeah... pretty serious opposition....

[Major_Decoy]

Four Green ink men. I've had it happen.

[Aurora_Girl]

"Squishies" are squishy BECAUSE of lacking Mez protection. That's the trade-off for damage/buff/debuff ability. 

 

Adding protection to all Mez in a power pool without giving up those things, to me, is a big giant NOPE. 

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

With Mag 10 mez protection, you need to be facing some seriously stiff mez opposition. Or a pair of Dark Ring Mistresses backing up those Illusionists...

 

Master Illusionists working in concert with two Illusionists.  Ring Mistresses are, comparatively, pushovers.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Or a few Sappers backing up those Zeus Titans with their Hercules Titan support... especially if they are higher level...

 

Only one Sapper is ever in a spawn.  Four Gunslingers, though, or four minions using Tasers, neither of which is uncommon, can stack 12 points of mez.

 

You missed Rikti (Mesmerist lieutenants and bosses), Arachnos (Tarantula Mistresses and Queens, Fortunata Mistresses), Crey (stacking Stuns from Tanks, which encompass the full range of minion through boss now), Longbow (Nullifiers, Wardens)... I could spend half of the morning listing enemy groups which can stack mez, but I have things to do, so I'll summarize.

 

From the mid-teens onward, almost every enemy group contains at least one type of mezzing critter, and the higher the difficulty setting, the more that appear in each spawn.  By the time you reach 50, you have mez coming in at you from all sides, and ramping up the team size inherently allows more mezzing critters to spawn.  Mag 10 status protection is no longer a guarantee of immunity at that point.  Of course, when you're not forced to wait out the mez, then turn your damage mitigation toggles back on (and subsequently have them shut down again by the next piddling mag 2 Stun or Sleep or Hold) because those toggles are only suppressed, it's easy to overlook the broad proliferation of mez throughout the game.

 

24 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

"Squishies" are squishy BECAUSE of lacking Mez protection. That's the trade-off for damage/buff/debuff ability. 

 

That was the trade-off in Issue 0.  Now, in the game which has seen every status-protected archetype's damage output increase several times while those squishies are still on their original scalars and modifiers, in the game which has enabled the status-protected archetypes' toggles to remain active while the squishies' are turned off, it's a caste distinction.

[Marbing]

7 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

However, I could see this idea being used for new Epic Pools. I could totally wait til 35 for free mez protection on my Blasters. Those pools are meant to stretch the limit of what your AT is capable of anyways. Scorp Shield or Mez Protection? *sweats*

I actually really like this idea as a compromise, though I still think I’d prefer it as a standard pool.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Master Illusionists working in concert with two Illusionists.  Ring Mistresses are, comparatively, pushovers.

 

 

Only one Sapper is ever in a spawn.  Four Gunslingers, though, or four minions using Tasers, neither of which is uncommon, can stack 12 points of mez.

 

You missed Rikti (Mesmerist lieutenants and bosses), Arachnos (Tarantula Mistresses and Queens, Fortunata Mistresses), Crey (stacking Stuns from Tanks, which encompass the full range of minion through boss now), Longbow (Nullifiers, Wardens)... I could spend half of the morning listing enemy groups which can stack mez, but I have things to do, so I'll summarize.

 

From the mid-teens onward, almost every enemy group contains at least one type of mezzing critter, and the higher the difficulty setting, the more that appear in each spawn.  By the time you reach 50, you have mez coming in at you from all sides, and ramping up the team size inherently allows more mezzing critters to spawn.  Mag 10 status protection is no longer a guarantee of immunity at that point.  Of course, when you're not forced to wait out the mez, then turn your damage mitigation toggles back on (and subsequently have them shut down again by the next piddling mag 2 Stun or Sleep or Hold) because those toggles are only suppressed, it's easy to overlook the broad proliferation of mez throughout the game.

 

 

Cool. Now let's go poll some players on how threatened they feel from mez on their characters and particularly how they handle those types of foes across multiple ATs.

 

From my personal observations, mez tends to only start being a threat when you overload on enemies in a spawn which, obviously, is something you choose to do. Even in the circumstance of overloading spawns, certain tactics, powers and builds are employed to deemphasize these threats (I rarely, if ever, hear melee builds discussing the woes of getting mezzed through their protection or specialty build avoiding increased spawns because mez is too difficult to avoid). Even for squishy ATs, a well placed inspiration is often enough to get them through rough spots.

 

My ultimate point tho, which should be even more obvious, is that mez stops being a threat when you have comprehensive protection from it. When you start passing out more and more protections (even more than current) you're going to make mez even less of a threat. 

 

Overall, I don't tend to criticize ideas because I hate them or even think they're bad. I usually do it because I think they're uncreative, this one being particularly binary in addressing mez and protection. No thinking outside the box or probing alternatives. 

[arcane]

11 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Ok, @arcane, you downvoted the concept. Please explain why.

Because as soon as he said “fucked” in the opening of the second paragraph, it became immediately familiar. Sure the first paragraph pulled some hard data, but after that it was clear it would be another emotional post based on false premises. Just so we’re clear, this is someone who in the past has compared playing squishy AT’s to being discriminated against.

 

The main false premise being any implication that the game becomes unplayable or too much harder without mez protection. I know you stick to melee primarily so let me clear this up for you: blasters and defenders are my favorite AT’s and the game is no less playable without perma mez protection. His post displays a vivid imagination with extreme exaggerations. Squishies aren’t needing full trays of Break Frees or sitting around waiting for Rune to recharge. All of that is overkill against the minimal threat that is mez in 2022.

 

And considering you’re probably going to reference discrepancies in exact completion times between AT’s soloing against +4x8 carnies with an arbitrary no inspirations rule to counter my point, I suspect you don’t have a real case either tbh.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by arcane

[Zeraphia]

11 hours ago, Luminara said:

Out of a total 2115 primary/secondary combinations available in the entire game, 1855 have some means of achieving status protection, if we include the blaster ATO and T1/T2 "ha ha, I can still kill you" anti-mez ability (as well as their varied status protection options in the secondaries)

That is really really really stretching it. I am just not sold on people who claim that ATO is "great." It's good for the set bonuses, but 1-2 magnitude protection on powers that sometimes trigger it doesn't save you from a whole lot of CC at all. You're also locked into a paradigm of "well if I put this enhancement into the T1/T2 power to build stackable mez protection, it'll proc so abysmally low I won't actually be able to stack it, but if I put it in a slower recharging power that's also stackable, the stacks are not ever going to build due to the buff expiring." IMO, the Blaster ATO is overhyped. The biggest thing about it is the set bonus.

 

I think the bigger argument that you could make for all combinations technically having CC protection is the P2W vendor. You want to solve your blaster's weakness indefinitely? Run an AFK farmer/do some marketing/play the game and buy a lot of defense amplifiers. It completely changes the AT entirely.

 

But to your main point, I find myself agreeing with it. I do think that the times have changed and the basic principles of game philosophy that existed upon creation are no longer present. I also generally dislike having to waste influence repeatedly for dealing with an annoyance that so many other ATs get a free pass on. 

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

That was the trade-off in Issue 0.  Now, in the game which has seen every status-protected archetype's damage output increase several times while those squishies are still on their original scalars and modifiers, in the game which has enabled the status-protected archetypes' toggles to remain active while the squishies' are turned off, it's a caste distinction.

I hope you aren’t implying that squishies haven’t received their own fair share of power creep since that would be cringe levels of factually incorrect.

[Zeraphia]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

I hope you aren’t implying that squishies haven’t received their own fair share of power creep since that would be cringe levels of factually incorrect.

So I think the answer depends on how you look at it. I'm not answering for Luminara, but my thoughts on that topic are that squishies are getting their "power creep" not on their base kits themselves unlike most melees have, it's just that they started from well... nothing, and anything that benefits anything universally just becomes a massive buff to them. And well, range will just always be superior to melee. Incarnates gave a far more substantial boost to squishies than anything else. P2W defense amp gives squishies a far better defensive tool than what it adds for what melees already have. It's really not that melees didn't get substantial buffs, it's more so that the game universally giving everyone a buildable buff made certain things so much more viable that otherwise would just get shredded to pieces.

 

It's like if you start one with 20 and the other with 10, then you give both sides 80, they start to really close the gap on each other and the difference between 100 and 90 is not that significant anymore. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Zeraphia

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Zeraphia said:

So I think the answer depends on how you look at it. I'm not answering for Luminara, but my thoughts on that topic are that squishies are getting their "power creep" not on their base kits themselves unlike most melees have, it's just that they started from well... nothing, and anything that benefits anything universally just becomes a massive buff to them. And well, range will just always be superior to melee. Incarnates gave a far more substantial boost to squishies than anything else. P2W defense amp gives squishies a far better defensive tool than what it adds for what melees already have. It's really not that melees didn't get substantial buffs, it's more so that the game universally giving everyone a buildable buff made certain things so much more viable that otherwise would just get shredded to pieces. 

I mean if none of y’all are grateful for squishy-specific power creep like crashless nukes I guess we can take them away... 🙄 

[Marbing]

50 minutes ago, arcane said:

Because as soon as he said “fucked” in the opening of the second paragraph, it became immediately familiar. Sure the first paragraph pulled some hard data, but after that it was clear it would be another emotional post based on false premises. Just so we’re clear, this is someone who in the past has compared playing squishy AT’s to being discriminated against.

 

The main false premise being any implication that the game becomes unplayable or too much harder without mez protection. I know you stick to melee primarily so let me clear this up for you: blasters and defenders are my favorite AT’s and the game is no less playable without perma mez protection. His post displays a vivid imagination with extreme exaggerations. Squishies aren’t needing full trays of Break Frees or sitting around waiting for Rune to recharge. All of that is overkill against the minimal threat that is mez in 2022.

 

And considering you’re probably going to reference discrepancies in exact completion times between AT’s soloing against +4x8 carnies with an arbitrary no inspirations rule to counter my point, I suspect you don’t have a real case either tbh.

 

I actually agree with you that squishies dont need mez protection to be efficient. If you play them correctly it shouldnt be a huge issue. Play smarter not harder and all. My favorite AT’s are all squishy (as evident by my signature lol). Hell my main has Clarion and I often forget to use it and don’t even notice sometimes 😂

 

That being said I don’t see an issue with a pool or even an epic pool that provides a small baseline mez prot (mag 3 at least) because it would make build planning more interesting. Maybe now I can get that instead of clarion, thus freeing me up for say… barrier? I would be making build sacrifices for that, such as no Soul Mastery (Soul Drain is awesome), no Mace Mastery (because Scorp shield is awesome), etc etc…

 

 

[Zeraphia]

Just now, arcane said:

I mean if none of y’all are grateful for squishy-specific power creep like crashless nukes I guess we can take them away... 🙄 

Crashless nukes were just kind of needed. Yeah, that was one squishy-specific buff along with improved Blaster secondaries that greatly helped them, but the point that it's more about just the general things everyone's received have benefited them more than others... but implying ungratefulness is a bit much.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Zeraphia said:

Crashless nukes were just kind of needed. Yeah, that was one squishy-specific buff along with improved Blaster secondaries that greatly helped them, but the point that it's more about just the general things everyone's received have benefited them more than others... but implying ungratefulness is a bit much.

I really don’t think very much at all is “a bit much” to tell someone that’s willing to frequently invoke language of discrimination and oppression and class conflict over a warped perception of a video game. If you want to make ludicrous posts, you earn that eye roll yourself.