Access to Powers At All Levels After Acquisition

[TheZag]

Well i was trying to make 2 points with that post.  If u think pay 2 win powers are comparable to the powers u get from lvl 32-50 thats fine.  Im sure there are some people out there that love to discuss the accuracy, recharge, and animation differences of p2w powers over their regular power pick counterparts.  On my dark melee i can say that shadow maul does do less total damage than sands of mu but shadow maul is way better - 3 second recharge vs 16 seconds, 1.96 accuracy vs 1.0,  2.37 animation time vs 3.07.

 

The other point i was trying to make is that low level players will get blocked from content designed for them.  Not every team will be speed and require high level players.  But for actual new players to ever see a message 'posi 1 lvl 50' I can bet they will think its high level stuff and not join another when they see 'posi 1 lvl 8'.  And for people on their alts that know what levels the content is and arent allowed to join a low lvl TF because it was for players with all their powers only.

 

Homecoming isnt a commercial entity that im aware of but they try to give the game a 'retail' or 'live server' feeling when you play.  This is likely why Homecoming population is way higher then Thunderspy or Cake,  where they do more of the stuff that you would have never seen on the retail servers.  Players bore quickly when everything is a faceroll.  Its fun for about an hour on a different server group and then its back to Homecoming where the real City of Heroes is.

[Six-Six]

If you want to utterly destroy someone, give them what they want... or something to that effect. I think that having access to powers early on without earning them will lead to a downfall of the game. You say you want it to be more community driven, but after the initial novelty, you fail to see how doing so will drive away the community. There will simply be no more challenge, and people will move on to the next game.

I'm with @MTeague. I enjoy the landing in Mercy with just 1 power and slowly navigating most of the lowbie to mid level content. I barely play any endgame; I shelf most toons as soon as they ding 50. I like the challenge of facing foes when I haven't earned x power yet, or I don't have enough slots to make that power effective, or my recovery can't handle that toggle yet. I have toons that only train until level 10, then go the rest of the way until 50. I have toons that don't train at all and try to make it with just T1/T2 primary, T1 secondary, brawl, sprint... no Rest. The P2W lady and I have long been on non-speaking terms, and I don't miss her.

Besides, there's already a way to get what you suggested: power levelling. You can reach 50 in no time with double XP and a good farm map (plus a generous farmer). Or is door sitting too much of an effort?

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It wouldn't. It would, however, drastically change the lowbie game and absolutely for the worse. The game was designed to scale with level. Lowbie enemies are ridiculously weak. Allowing players access to their full loadout of powers during a Posi1, for example, would be even a stupider walk in the park than it already is with a level 50 exemplared down.

 

You also could not increase the enemies without making the threat environment too high for actual low level players.  You'd probably end up with people playing Posi WST requiring all team members to be over a certain level (probably 35), that way you could run at max difficulty.   

 

 

[Mark]

27 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Well i was trying to make 2 points with that post.  If u think pay 2 win powers are comparable to the powers u get from lvl 32-50 thats fine.  Im sure there are some people out there that love to discuss the accuracy, recharge, and animation differences of p2w powers over their regular power pick counterparts.  On my dark melee i can say that shadow maul does do less total damage than sands of mu but shadow maul is way better - 3 second recharge vs 16 seconds, 1.96 accuracy vs 1.0,  2.37 animation time vs 3.07.

 

The other point i was trying to make is that low level players will get blocked from content designed for them.  Not every team will be speed and require high level players.  But for actual new players to ever see a message 'posi 1 lvl 50' I can bet they will think its high level stuff and not join another when they see 'posi 1 lvl 8'.  And for people on their alts that know what levels the content is and arent allowed to join a low lvl TF because it was for players with all their powers only.

 

Homecoming isnt a commercial entity that im aware of but they try to give the game a 'retail' or 'live server' feeling when you play.  This is likely why Homecoming population is way higher then Thunderspy or Cake,  where they do more of the stuff that you would have never seen on the retail servers.  Players bore quickly when everything is a faceroll.  Its fun for about an hour on a different server group and then its back to Homecoming where the real City of Heroes is.

You can control the recharge of powers by slotting recharge time.

 

The same way people are replying with "if you don't want speed teams, don't join them", I can retort with "You don't have to join groups that require lv35". Just because someone will do it doesn't mean it will become the norm. Again, AE missions will always remain the most brain-dead easy way to level. Your fear of people suddenly becoming OP and facerolling just like they do for all mid-endgame content simply by having 3 extra damage powers that they can already use P2W powers to replace is unwarranted.

 

The way that mission objectives are designed determines the zerging/facerolling, not access to powers. If the mission objectives in DFB were to just kill the bosses, everyone would skip everything else like they already do in mid-endgame.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Mark

[Mark]

20 minutes ago, Six-Six said:

If you want to utterly destroy someone, give them what they want... or something to that effect. I think that having access to powers early on without earning them will lead to a downfall of the game. You say you want it to be more community driven, but after the initial novelty, you fail to see how doing so will drive away the community. There will simply be no more challenge, and people will move on to the next game.

I'm with @MTeague. I enjoy the landing in Mercy with just 1 power and slowly navigating most of the lowbie to mid level content. I barely play any endgame; I shelf most toons as soon as they ding 50. I like the challenge of facing foes when I haven't earned x power yet, or I don't have enough slots to make that power effective, or my recovery can't handle that toggle yet. I have toons that only train until level 10, then go the rest of the way until 50. I have toons that don't train at all and try to make it with just T1/T2 primary, T1 secondary, brawl, sprint... no Rest. The P2W lady and I have long been on non-speaking terms, and I don't miss her.

Besides, there's already a way to get what you suggested: power levelling. You can reach 50 in no time with double XP and a good farm map (plus a generous farmer). Or is door sitting too much of an effort?

How do you feel about P2W powers being just as effective (sometimes better) as having access to powers early on?

[Six-Six]

I don't do P2W. I've done fine without her, and anything she peddles can be earned through content... except vanity pets. sometimes I get vanity pets.

[Mark]

1 minute ago, Six-Six said:

I don't do P2W. I've done fine without her, and anything she peddles can be earned through content... except vanity pets. sometimes I get vanity pets.

So you're admitting you have no argument?

[Six-Six]

I'm afraid I don't see your logic of how my not patronising P2W equates to no argument.

What I'm saying if you make the game too easy, it will become boring and people will go find something more interesting. It's already easy enough as it is. You're missing the point of earning your way through a game, not just "paying to win" like other MMOs that give you OP-ness for an equivalent amount of cash. For what? so you can laude over other players that you're stronger??? When everyone else is super, no one is. And then you lose the incentive to retain players. Have you ever played a game on God-mode? I don't know about you, but it's fun for about 3 seconds. then it ruins the point of the game.

Let me ask you, if I may. How long does it take you to get all of your powers? A couple of weeks of slow grind? A week with XP boost? A couple of hours in a farm? It takes me half an hour to an hour to get to 20 without XP boost and just by doing contacts. I even turn XP off so I enjoy the lower levels more and/or do a lot of low-level Pillar missions. I still believe that the point of the journey is not merely to arrive. 

You made a comment earlier: "To each their own, I would find it fun so I suggested it." which didn't sit right with me. It doesn't seem sincere. Everyone enjoys the game differently, but the game must be revised so I can enjoy it more. Like I said, there's already a way for you to get what you want with very little effort. 

[Parabola]

I'm not sure how this has become an argument about ptw powers. I've not seen anything in ptw that can compete with a primary powerset attack with its associated slotting. Anyway, the enemies in the early game are not tuned to face characters with all their powers. Fulcrum shift in dfb? It wouldn't work.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, Parabola said:

I'm not sure how this has become an argument about ptw powers. I've not seen anything in ptw that can compete with a primary powerset attack with its associated slotting. Anyway, the enemies in the early game are not tuned to face characters with all their powers. Fulcrum shift in dfb? It wouldn't work.

 

I think I get the logic path ..

 

P2W powers are okay to use ..

So Obviously you may as well give "Access to Powers At All Levels After Acquisition"

 

Sort of a "If all this Power Creep is okay, why not this other Power Creep?" 

 

I mean whatever there is already so much power creep that we are basically playing with cheat codes at this point ..

And you wouldn't have to change any of your Quick Bars around or even mess with yout toggles when you exemp anymore .. LOL 

 

Go.  Nova.  Skuls.  

 

-----------

 

Of course it means just giving in entirely to the whole idea of balance.  Lower Levels did have a little left .. sort of.   

 

I'd rather turn the argument around.  If I could find the energy. 

Lets do a Balance Pass on the P2W vendor .. And maybe a balance pass on Exemplaring.   Maybe Exemplared characters are already too powerful.  

[Mark]

1 hour ago, Six-Six said:

I'm afraid I don't see your logic of how my not patronising P2W equates to no argument.

What I'm saying if you make the game too easy, it will become boring and people will go find something more interesting. It's already easy enough as it is. You're missing the point of earning your way through a game, not just "paying to win" like other MMOs that give you OP-ness for an equivalent amount of cash. For what? so you can laude over other players that you're stronger??? When everyone else is super, no one is. And then you lose the incentive to retain players. Have you ever played a game on God-mode? I don't know about you, but it's fun for about 3 seconds. then it ruins the point of the game.

Let me ask you, if I may. How long does it take you to get all of your powers? A couple of weeks of slow grind? A week with XP boost? A couple of hours in a farm? It takes me half an hour to an hour to get to 20 without XP boost and just by doing contacts. I even turn XP off so I enjoy the lower levels more and/or do a lot of low-level Pillar missions. I still believe that the point of the journey is not merely to arrive. 

You made a comment earlier: "To each their own, I would find it fun so I suggested it." which didn't sit right with me. It doesn't seem sincere. Everyone enjoys the game differently, but the game must be revised so I can enjoy it more. Like I said, there's already a way for you to get what you want with very little effort. 

Thank you for your opinion.

[srmalloy]

14 hours ago, Mark said:

There would be no change to mid or endgame.

...unless you happen to be, say, running Posi 1 with several level-50 Incarnates on the team, and the rotating Lore pet/nuke rotation steamrolls every mission before you can do anything.

[Mark]

1 hour ago, Parabola said:

I'm not sure how this has become an argument about ptw powers. I've not seen anything in ptw that can compete with a primary powerset attack with its associated slotting. Anyway, the enemies in the early game are not tuned to face characters with all their powers. Fulcrum shift in dfb? It wouldn't work.

I can give everyone Fulcrum Shift on my Scrapper in DFB with Team Inspirations. It won't be +400% damage bonus because it caps at lower levels. It would be the same as popping a medium inspiration. Again, there are already systems in place that do the same thing. The repeated argument that it will somehow make things too easy when people are already finding ways around it along with AE AFKing existing is a bit concerning.

 

e: excuse the quality of the pic, the PNG form is too big to post

Edited February 26, 2022 by Mark

[Mark]

3 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

...unless you happen to be, say, running Posi 1 with several level-50 Incarnates on the team, and the rotating Lore pet/nuke rotation steamrolls every mission before you can do anything.

...unless you read it and see that I left out Incarnates. Thank you for your opinion.

[Mark]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

I think I get the logic path ..

 

P2W powers are okay to use ..

So Obviously you may as well give "Access to Powers At All Levels After Acquisition"

 

Sort of a "If all this Power Creep is okay, why not this other Power Creep?" 

 

I mean whatever there is already so much power creep that we are basically playing with cheat codes at this point ..

And you wouldn't have to change any of your Quick Bars around or even mess with yout toggles when you exemp anymore .. LOL 

 

Go.  Nova.  Skuls.  

 

-----------

 

Of course it means just giving in entirely to the whole idea of balance.  Lower Levels did have a little left .. sort of.   

 

I'd rather turn the argument around.  If I could find the energy. 

Lets do a Balance Pass on the P2W vendor .. And maybe a balance pass on Exemplaring.   Maybe Exemplared characters are already too powerful.  

 

 

 

This is the idea, yeah. It's just another power creep among the bunch.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Mark

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

I understand your point. I'm trying to explain how P2W powers negate having access to a small handful of powers. You can replace the powers you're missing with P2W powers for the same (sometimes even better) damage. Envenomed Dagger, a P2W power, is one of the most powerful options for all archetypes from level 1-30ish.

 

The lower missions are paced so well because they are designed to encourage team cooperation (clear enemies before the bosses can spawn, etc). It has nothing to do with limited power access because you can essentially get those extra powers through P2W. I guarantee you if the objectives were the same as higher level content (just killing the boss or teleporting the escort to the exit), people would mindlessly blow through them like mid-endgame.

 

Well, your opening statement didn't include anything about P2W powers and GM Impervium hit the nail on the head about your opening reasoning. 

 

Here is my feeble attempt to help show how this is a bad idea (as you previously asked someone to try)....

 

Regarding the P2W powers, they do NOT replace the powers you get in your 20s, 30s, and then your epics in your 40s.  They do not impact whether you have powers at lowere levels or not - the exemplar system does.  The P2W powers:  Nemmy Staff, Black Wand, Ghost Axe, and Sands of Mu ( you get 3 out of 4) were vet rewards back in live and intended to help veterans in the low levels as a reward for being with the game so long.  The devs during live also added in inherent attacks for each original to also help out lowbie toons.  And we're ALL veterans now!  We all should have them.  And for truly new players - it's fine for them to have them too, but there are those out there that still do not even know these powers exist.  But still.... while these powers do help at lower levels, they do not replace what you will get in your 20s, 30s, and 40s.   

 

These P2W powers all shine and help at lvl 1-15 content and do good damage then.  But by the 20s, you're no longer using them - unless you're a tank and focusing more on taking your primary (defenses).  And the damage these powers do wanes in the 20s comparatively to what your primary/secondary/epics can do later on.  Around lvl 25, these powers are obsolete and by lvl 30, their damage is less than what your other powers can do.  (The only reason to keep these around is if you get extremely slowed and have no recharge on all your other powers - yay, vet perc!)  To think these replace your primary/secondary/epic powers, is just not accurate thinking at all.  They only supplement at low levels (as intended by the original devs) - that is it.

 

The other P2W powers have to be purchased (like Envenomed Dagger, you previously mentioned).  These are generally buffs or fun temp powers that could be earned in game, but because of the nature of how the game came back, the devs have allowed us to purchase these for getting us back up on our feet (thanks, devs!).  But to the Envenomed Dagger specifically, it was put in the game back on live after the devs made all TFs/SFs being able to start with 1 person (ie soloable).  Some people complained that the change was only fair to those who had abilities with a -regen component (as not all ATs or powersets have -regen attacks).  So the devs added in the Envenomed Dagger to help everyone out.  Yes, it's powerful, but it's only needed if you're on a small team or solo.  Mid to large teams can defeat AVs/GMs without it.

 

But let's talk about practicality.... a lvl 50 exemplared down will also have all their set bonuses and probably maxed damage for all their now available attacks.  When you're leveling up, you don't have all those slots, all those sets, or the bonuses.  Your attacks may only have 30-50% enhanced damage bonus while a lvl 50 will be at the 95% ED cap (or higher)!  The level 50 will also probably have all their soft-capped defenses (from set bonuses) and then be able to walk through all the low level content - EVEN at +4x8.  lvl 50s ex'd down currently already have an advantage over characters that are leveling up because they do get to keep all slots and enhs in the abilities they do keep.  Allowing them to retain more abilities and more bonuses, and more "power" just makes them too uber for the low level content. 

 

And as previously stated by someone else, low level mobs don't do much damage comparatively to the higher levels.  Nor do they have better defenses to counter the uberness that is a full slotted and fully developed lvl 50.  When you reach your 20s, foes start getting a bigger mix of damage types, in the 30s you get an even more mixed bag of exotic damage types and things hit a lot harder, and this increases again in the 40s.  It's this progression that makes the game great and a level 50 keeping all their abilities would negate that.  

 

And as GM Impervium replied to you, this would ruin what you are arguing for - community play.  More players would run off from the team and just lay waste to all that is in their sights.  If people are doing that already in endgame content with their fully set bonused lvl 50 (not even talking incarnates) and against harder foes, then it would be worse at lower levels (even at +4x8) where mobs/foes do not have the threat (damage output) or the defenses to even attempt to stop the lvl 50s.  

 

If none of what was said in everyone's posts show you how this is just not that great of an idea, then no one will convince you.  And well, that's ok.  It's right to believe what you want.  

 

But also as previously stated, if you want better community play, look to find other players that like that too.  They are out there.  There are people who hate speeding through things (I am one of them).  I enjoy the content - even though I've read it many many times, I still do it and enjoy it.  I like a challenge and not just walking through things.  

 

Have you tried a Hami raid - lots of community play, strategy, and organization.  How about Incarnate Trials... lots of community and league coordination there too.  There is plenty of end-game content that provides what you are looking for - just have to find and join it.  

 

Best of luck!

[Luminara]

49 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Maybe Exemplared characters are already too powerful.

 

Enhancement reductions were enacted to deal with that.  Having all of your slots, and having all of the enhanced value of all of those slots, are not even remotely the same in the examplar system.  The lower one exemplars, the larger the reduction on enhancement values, and with SOs being available at level 1 now, there's a fair degree of balance between native level characters and exemplared characters.

 

 

That's my main exemplared down to level 7.  At native level 7, I had the same five slots in the power, but presuming less intensive slotting, we can still presume at least two additional slots in the power, allowing an Accuracy SO, a Damage SO and an Endurance Reduction SO, all at 33% values.  That's definitely superior to this slotting.  Allowing SOs all the way down to level 1 was probably the most impactful balance change the HC team has made to date, and it was the right thing to do, from this perspective.

 

Even if we presume the native level character is using set IOs instead of SOs, he/she is still receiving slightly better enhanced values than the exemplared values.  There's no big leap in performance for the exemplared character, that hit to the enhancements does a very good job of limiting us.

What I'm getting at is that exemplaring has a powerful impact on builds.  The reduction of enhancement values was specifically designed to be that strong because it was balanced against the additional availability of a few extra powers.  You get two or three extra powers, but you take a larger hit on all enhancement slotting, creating a broad parity with characters at native levels.

 

Granted, use of IO set bonuses can offset some of the losses, but there aren't very many +Accuracy, +Recharge, +Damage or EndRdx bonuses available below level 22.  Most of the "good stuff" comes at levels 25 and 30, and upward, and going below 22 costs significantly in terms set bonuses.  We still retain purple set bonuses, ATO bonuses, PvP set bonuses and certain globals, but, despite with the general availability of these now, we can't assume everyone's use of them.  And even when we do have them, they're not opening a wide gulf between native and exemplared builds.  This same character has only two 15% Accuracy set bonuses, and 60% global recharge.  That total +30% Accuracy is just bringing the character up to the native level character's SO use, and I don't have a complete attack chain to make use of that global +Recharge, so I'm not hammering away with a complete attack chain, I'm falling back on my origin power, Brawl, vet temps, just like the native level character does.  Those set bonuses are just bringing me back up to strength in comparison to that native level character.

 

It's a fair and balanced approach to exemplaring, doubly so now that SOs are falling from the sky at level 1.  It's also why the proposal in the original post is a non-starter.  Allowing all powers to be available at this level would have exactly the impact you theorized.  Having a few set bonuses is fine, but having a complete roster of powers with which to leverage those set bonuses would be broken.  People complain about Incarnates being a problem... that's exactly the same kind of problem this would entail.

 

This suggestion is one of those things that will never happen on these servers.  We may not have the best balance in gaming history, but I guarantee that the HC team isn't going to throw what balance we do have into the trash by implementing this kind of change.

[Mark]

2 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

Well, your opening statement didn't include anything about P2W powers and GM Impervium hit the nail on the head about your opening reasoning. 

 

Here is my feeble attempt to help show how this is a bad idea (as you previously asked someone to try)....

 

Regarding the P2W powers, they do NOT replace the powers you get in your 20s, 30s, and then your epics in your 40s.  They do not impact whether you have powers at lowere levels or not - the exemplar system does.  The P2W powers:  Nemmy Staff, Black Wand, Ghost Axe, and Sands of Mu ( you get 3 out of 4) were vet rewards back in live and intended to help veterans in the low levels as a reward for being with the game so long.  The devs during live also added in inherent attacks for each original to also help out lowbie toons.  And we're ALL veterans now!  We all should have them.  And for truly new players - it's fine for them to have them too, but there are those out there that still do not even know these powers exist.  But still.... while these powers do help at lower levels, they do not replace what you will get in your 20s, 30s, and 40s.   

 

These P2W powers all shine and help at lvl 1-15 content and do good damage then.  But by the 20s, you're no longer using them - unless you're a tank and focusing more on taking your primary (defenses).  And the damage these powers do wanes in the 20s comparatively to what your primary/secondary/epics can do later on.  Around lvl 25, these powers are obsolete and by lvl 30, their damage is less than what your other powers can do.  (The only reason to keep these around is if you get extremely slowed and have no recharge on all your other powers - yay, vet perc!)  To think these replace your primary/secondary/epic powers, is just not accurate thinking at all.  They only supplement at low levels (as intended by the original devs) - that is it.

 

The other P2W powers have to be purchased (like Envenomed Dagger, you previously mentioned).  These are generally buffs or fun temp powers that could be earned in game, but because of the nature of how the game came back, the devs have allowed us to purchase these for getting us back up on our feet (thanks, devs!).  But to the Envenomed Dagger specifically, it was put in the game back on live after the devs made all TFs/SFs being able to start with 1 person (ie soloable).  Some people complained that the change was only fair to those who had abilities with a -regen component (as not all ATs or powersets have -regen attacks).  So the devs added in the Envenomed Dagger to help everyone out.  Yes, it's powerful, but it's only needed if you're on a small team or solo.  Mid to large teams can defeat AVs/GMs without it.

 

But let's talk about practicality.... a lvl 50 exemplared down will also have all their set bonuses and probably maxed damage for all their now available attacks.  When you're leveling up, you don't have all those slots, all those sets, or the bonuses.  Your attacks may only have 30-50% enhanced damage bonus while a lvl 50 will be at the 95% ED cap (or higher)!  The level 50 will also probably have all their soft-capped defenses (from set bonuses) and then be able to walk through all the low level content - EVEN at +4x8.  lvl 50s ex'd down currently already have an advantage over characters that are leveling up because they do get to keep all slots and enhs in the abilities they do keep.  Allowing them to retain more abilities and more bonuses, and more "power" just makes them too uber for the low level content. 

 

And as previously stated by someone else, low level mobs don't do much damage comparatively to the higher levels.  Nor do they have better defenses to counter the uberness that is a full slotted and fully developed lvl 50.  When you reach your 20s, foes start getting a bigger mix of damage types, in the 30s you get an even more mixed bag of exotic damage types and things hit a lot harder, and this increases again in the 40s.  It's this progression that makes the game great and a level 50 keeping all their abilities would negate that.  

 

And as GM Impervium replied to you, this would ruin what you are arguing for - community play.  More players would run off from the team and just lay waste to all that is in their sights.  If people are doing that already in endgame content with their fully set bonused lvl 50 (not even talking incarnates) and against harder foes, then it would be worse at lower levels (even at +4x8) where mobs/foes do not have the threat (damage output) or the defenses to even attempt to stop the lvl 50s.  

 

If none of what was said in everyone's posts show you how this is just not that great of an idea, then no one will convince you.  And well, that's ok.  It's right to believe what you want.  

 

But also as previously stated, if you want better community play, look to find other players that like that too.  They are out there.  There are people who hate speeding through things (I am one of them).  I enjoy the content - even though I've read it many many times, I still do it and enjoy it.  I like a challenge and not just walking through things.  

 

Have you tried a Hami raid - lots of community play, strategy, and organization.  How about Incarnate Trials... lots of community and league coordination there too.  There is plenty of end-game content that provides what you are looking for - just have to find and join it.  

 

Best of luck!

That's a mighty long way to ignore the fact that Team Inspirations and P2W powers are the equivalent (sometimes even better) to just having them available. Thank you for your opinion.

[Mark]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Enhancement reductions were enacted to deal with that.  Having all of your slots, and having all of the enhanced value of all of those slots, are not even remotely the same in the examplar system.  The lower one exemplars, the larger the reduction on enhancement values, and with SOs being available at level 1 now, there's a fair degree of balance between native level characters and exemplared characters.

 

 

That's my main exemplared down to level 7.  At native level 7, I had the same five slots in the power, but presuming less intensive slotting, we can still presume at least two additional slots in the power, allowing an Accuracy SO, a Damage SO and an Endurance Reduction SO, all at 33% values.  That's definitely superior to this slotting.  Allowing SOs all the way down to level 1 was probably the most impactful balance change the HC team has made to date, and it was the right thing to do, from this perspective.

 

Even if we presume the native level character is using set IOs instead of SOs, he/she is still receiving slightly better enhanced values than the exemplared values.  There's no big leap in performance for the exemplared character, that hit to the enhancements does a very good job of limiting us.

What I'm getting at is that exemplaring has a powerful impact on builds.  The reduction of enhancement values was specifically designed to be that strong because it was balanced against the additional availability of a few extra powers.  You get two or three extra powers, but you take a larger hit on all enhancement slotting, creating a broad parity with characters at native levels.

 

Granted, use of IO set bonuses can offset some of the losses, but there aren't very many +Accuracy, +Recharge, +Damage or EndRdx bonuses available below level 22.  Most of the "good stuff" comes at levels 25 and 30, and upward, and going below 22 costs significantly in terms set bonuses.  We still retain purple set bonuses, ATO bonuses, PvP set bonuses and certain globals, but, despite with the general availability of these now, we can't assume everyone's use of them.  And even when we do have them, they're not opening a wide gulf between native and exemplared builds.  This same character has only two 15% Accuracy set bonuses, and 60% global recharge.  That total +30% Accuracy is just bringing the character up to the native level character's SO use, and I don't have a complete attack chain to make use of that global +Recharge, so I'm not hammering away with a complete attack chain, I'm falling back on my origin power, Brawl, vet temps, just like the native level character does.  Those set bonuses are just bringing me back up to strength in comparison to that native level character.

 

It's a fair and balanced approach to exemplaring, doubly so now that SOs are falling from the sky at level 1.  It's also why the proposal in the original post is a non-starter.  Allowing all powers to be available at this level would have exactly the impact you theorized.  Having a few set bonuses is fine, but having a complete roster of powers with which to leverage those set bonuses would be broken.  People complain about Incarnates being a problem... that's exactly the same kind of problem this would entail.

 

This suggestion is one of those things that will never happen on these servers.  We may not have the best balance in gaming history, but I guarantee that the HC team isn't going to throw what balance we do have into the trash by implementing this kind of change.

Alright, people will just continue to spam Team Inspirations in place of Fulcrum Shift at lower levels for the exact same experience. Thank you for your opinion.

[Rudra]

You seem to have a fixation on P2W powers and how they affect a team's ability to speed. Firstly, you cannot slot P2W powers. Those were Veteran powers you earned after years of play on Live that are immediately (Edit: available) as if the game never shut down. You can never slot enhancements to improve them. They can only be improved indirectly by set bonuses. Pretty much all of which disappear when doing low level content as a flashback. Sets with a level 10 requirement would always benefit you, but the 20+, 30+, 35+ sets would not. They would affect P2W powers during mid-game content, but it depends on the level of the content.

 

Having access to all powers at all levels is a vastly better advantage. They still get the full effect of their enhancement bonuses regardless of level, they would only possibly lose set bonuses. So gained powers on a level 50 will always outperform P2W powers.

 

Mobs are geared for a set level range and the expected availability of powers in that range. So if you can use all your powers through level 50 at all levels, the mob scaling goes right out the window.

 

Being able to AFK a mission that someone else clears is farming power leveling Those people are not even participating in the mission. Given what your OP is about, I would not expect you to be using them as a reference. They are not racing to the objectives. They are not working with or against the team. They are simply there absorbing xp and inf' at the team's tolerance.

 

Having access to all your powers through level 50 at all levels may be fun for you, but as you can see from everyone else's reactions, it would make the low and mid game content insanely boring for others.

 

The best thing about the DfB (which I believe is the level 1-3 one, it's been a while since I did it), is that it looks at a character and says "You are level 1. Period. Deal with the content as intended." You get access to your level 1 powers only. Then when you reach the next stage, you get access to all your level 2 stuff. You are forced to play the content as designed. As easy as DfB is with THOSE restrictions, now try it in all your level 50 glory.

 

Team recruitment is already showing a lot of... I don't want to call it elitism... maybe levelism? Where task forces/strike forces and trials are having extra restrictions on player access to join. This is a lot more common for end game and high level content, and it is done for the sake of (hopefully) ensuring they can get the badges in it, but you can expect similar on low and mid game content if powers are unrestricted by level of content any more. As has been said previously in the thread, this will lock out a lot of the appropriate level for content players or lead them to think the content is higher level than it is, convincing them to stay away.

 

I don't know what more explanation you want. Pretty much everything I just said has been said at multiple points in this thread.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing comma. And again for missing text.

[Mark]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You seem to have a fixation on P2W powers and how they affect a team's ability to speed. Firstly, you cannot slot P2W powers. Those were Veteran powers you earned after years of play on Live that are immediately (Edit: available) as if the game never shut down. You can never slot enhancements to improve them. They can only be improved indirectly by set bonuses. Pretty much all of which disappear when doing low level content as a flashback. Sets with a level 10 requirement would always benefit you, but the 20+, 30+, 35+ sets would not. They would affect P2W powers during mid-game content, but it depends on the level of the content.

 

Having access to all powers at all levels is a vastly better advantage. They still get the full effect of their enhancement bonuses regardless of level, they would only possibly lose set bonuses. So gained powers on a level 50 will always outperform P2W powers.

 

Mobs are geared for a set level range and the expected availability of powers in that range. So if you can use all your powers through level 50 at all levels, the mob scaling goes right out the window.

 

Being able to AFK a mission that someone else clears is farming power leveling Those people are not even participating in the mission. Given what your OP is about, I would not expect you to be using them as a reference. They are not racing to the objectives. They are not working with or against the team. They are simply there absorbing xp and inf' at the team's tolerance.

 

Having access to all your powers through level 50 at all levels may be fun for you, but as you can see from everyone else's reactions, it would make the low and mid game content insanely boring for others.

 

The best thing about the DfB (which I believe is the level 1-3 one, it's been a while since I did it), is that it looks at a character and says "You are level 1. Period. Deal with the content as intended." You get access to your level 1 powers only. Then when you reach the next stage, you get access to all your level 2 stuff. You are forced to play the content as designed. As easy as DfB is with THOSE restrictions, now try it in all your level 50 glory.

 

Team recruitment is already showing a lot of... I don't want to call it elitism... maybe levelism? Where task forces/strike forces and trials are having extra restrictions on player access to join. This is a lot more common for end game and high level content, and it is done for the sake of (hopefully) ensuring they can get the badges in it, but you can expect similar on low and mid game content if powers are unrestricted by level of content any more. As has been said previously in the thread, this will lock out a lot of the appropriate level for content players or lead them to think the content is higher level than it is, convincing them to stay away.

 

I don't know what more explanation you want. Pretty much everything I just said has been said at multiple points in this thread.

I don't have a fixation on P2W powers, it's the counter to people who don't realize there are already systems in place that work that way and are being used.

 

That would be true if the content did actually force you to play with only a few tools available. Allowing P2W powers negates the idea that you're being forced to play that way. All you have to do is move the P2W powers where the faded out powers are and pop a medium inspiration to outperform having your powers available.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Mark

[Rudra]

Inspirations are a hard sell for this argument. They can be used regardless. You have all your powers? You can still use those same inspirations to improve them. So they don't really work as an argument for them making P2W powers work better than gained powers. Regardless of level.

 

Inspirations are also consumed when used. So you have to lay in a stock of them (tray or e-mail trick) or replace them as you go. Powers are not consumables. They are always there. And unless P2W powers, they always get the full benefit of their slotted enhancements. Maybe not their set bonuses depending on level, but their slotted bonuses.

 

P2W powers may help speed things along in lower level content, yes. I almost always fail to hit the target when using them, but that is likely just me and my luck. Comparing the availability of P2W powers to level 35+ powers is almost laughable. I feel like a broken record. Gained powers can be improved. (Including with inspirations.) P2W powers cannot (except with inspirations). High level gained powers available for low to mid game content renders the provided opposition moot since they would not be scaled for that. (They aren't scaled for P2W powers either, but you have a cap of 3 of those and they cannot be improved.)

 

For your stated goal of getting the team to work together and have fun rather than race madly to the objectives, your suggestion is counterproductive. With their full set of powers available to them, players Ouro'ing low and mid game content have even less reason to try and work together. Instead they have more reason to split up and just race to the various objectives because they are way over-powered for the content.

[starro]

I follow this thread with interest this afternoon.  Thematically with the game old Outbreak and Breakout Tutorials presented a new character as a rookie hero/villain at the start of their career and leveling up as they advance their career. By the time they get to 50 the hero/villain has many adventures, moved on from bank jobs to fighting bigger bad guys and eventually death gods before the Praetoria and the Well of Furies comes along for cosmic adventures. 

 

Nuking ants with T9 powers while fun would probably become tedious after a while.  I am the last person to talk about the code or game balance, but with the limited resources the r.o.i. for the volunteers may not be there.  I almost would think this request is a new game at that point.

 

As a casual game player there are some hooks in the COH that have kept me around - no instant 50s, no changing archetype/powers mid-stream and I think I might add this to the list after thinking about it the last couple of hours.   Another game and time this request may actually be a good feature, but it really seems incongruent with the nature of the COH beast.  COH is progression and growth - the journey and not the destination.

 

 

 

[Mark]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Inspirations are a hard sell for this argument. They can be used regardless. You have all your powers? You can still use those same inspirations to improve them. So they don't really work as an argument for them making P2W powers work better than gained powers. Regardless of level.

 

Inspirations are also consumed when used. So you have to lay in a stock of them (tray or e-mail trick) or replace them as you go. Powers are not consumables. They are always there. And unless P2W powers, they always get the full benefit of their slotted enhancements. Maybe not their set bonuses depending on level, but their slotted bonuses.

 

P2W powers may help speed things along in lower level content, yes. I almost always fail to hit the target when using them, but that is likely just me and my luck. Comparing the availability of P2W powers to level 35+ powers is almost laughable. I feel like a broken record. Gained powers can be improved. (Including with inspirations.) P2W powers cannot (except with inspirations). High level gained powers available for low to mid game content renders the provided opposition moot since they would not be scaled for that. (They aren't scaled for P2W powers either, but you have a cap of 3 of those and they cannot be improved.)

 

For your stated goal of getting the team to work together and have fun rather than race madly to the objectives, your suggestion is counterproductive. With their full set of powers available to them, players Ouro'ing low and mid game content have even less reason to try and work together. Instead they have more reason to split up and just race to the various objectives because they are way over-powered for the content.

The broken record is me trying to explain how the very thing you're saying, having powers would be too OP because of damage, is literally the same mechanic as equipping a P2W power and popping an inspiration. There is no difference. The bonuses that you think you'll get from the Lv35+ powers will not -- will not -- be the same amount that you get at level 35+ because the damage bonus caps on its own from level 1-30+. It's the same reason why Lv50+ are not one-shotting SBB bosses. The cap adjusts the damage on it's own already. It really is just access to the exact same maximum amount of damage already possible through use of P2W powers and a medium inspiration except with better animations.

 

I am sad for the future of games, but I think I'm done yelling at the wall. Thanks everyone for your participation. Take care, stay safe.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Mark

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Mark said:

Can you please explain how it is a bad idea considering AFKing in missions is the most brain-dead way to gain levels and is the most popular option?

That lots of people want to rush to level cap and ignore the content between creating a character and incarnate trials doesn't make that a good bar by which to judge other changes.