Aim or Build-up (or the like) allow accuracy above 95%

[Telamonster]

I missed my scheduled sacrifices to RNGesus and recently had a string of Super Snipes (slow snipe plus aim) whiff, which brought to mind a thought that has been bouncing around in my head since Live: letting to-hit buff powers raise the accuracy cap for affected powers.

 

I figured that such a foundational limit would be difficult to conditionally change, but the recent expansion to the tanker aoe limits makes me think that it would be viable.  Wise or not is something that I hope to flesh out here, but it should be just as feasible as the tanker aoe width buffs.

 

Why such a buff would have value?  Right now, powers like aim, tactics, or build-up have little value since you can chew some inspirations instead for a shorter animation time and longer duration.  Every build that I make has 95% accuracy for the main attacks in a normal 50+1 vs 54s situation anyway, which means the yellow inspirations have very little value at all and aim or buildup only provide value in raising damage output momentarily.  Running tactics on a support toon, as things are now, is basically of no value at all to a team outside of a Posi task force.

 

So, what I propose would be something along the lines of yellow inspirations allowing a chance to hit cap (cthcap) of 96%, toggle powers like tactics or targeting drone or focused accuracy, or slow-snipe, allow a cthcap of 97%, damage focused long recharge click powers that also boost tohit like build up raise the cthcap to 98%, and tohit focused long recharge powers like Aim raise the cthcap to 99%.  Combining any number of these effects would simply add 1 point to cthcap for the current highest effective power, so a yellow plus buildup would have a cthcap of 99%, or targeting drone plus Aim would mean a 100% cthcap for the duration of Aim.

 

Note that this would only affect that maximum chance to hit, so trying to nail a mogged Paragon Protector or a saturation phalanx of Cimerorans would still be a fool’s errand.  
 

I don’t think that there would be any significant balance issues from this, as we’re only increasing effective damage output by 5% at a maximum and more like 2% most of the time.  However, this change would let slow-snipes regain some of their “special”ness in being able to more reliably hit special targets, as well as giving some benefit to powers like tactics and focused accuracy in the 99% of situations where running those is currently just an effort in losing net recovery.

 

Any other thoughts or considerations that I’ve missed?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Telamonster
Typos

[Ston]

I think the clamp should be removed entirely. If you build for enough accuracy, then you should hit your target. It's so aggravating to buff up, cast your hard hitting attack, and miss on a 95% chance tohit roll. If there's a balance issue with that, give mobs more defense, tohit debuffs, etc. 

 

So +1 from me for this suggestion!

[Telamonster]

14 minutes ago, Ston said:

I think the clamp should be removed entirely. If you build for enough accuracy, then you should hit your target. It's so aggravating to buff up, cast your hard hitting attack, and miss on a 95% chance tohit roll. If there's a balance issue with that, give mobs more defense, tohit debuffs, etc. 

 

So +1 from me for this suggestion!

I’d get behind some manner of algorithmic/asymptotic system as well, where it’s as easy as now to build to 95%, requires some trade offs to build for 98%, and then you’d have to build almost exclusively for accuracy to hit 99%, and it’s very difficult (or maybe needs something like aim) to hit 100%.  Numbers subject to debate, of course.  However, that would require a lot more rejiggering than the simple if/then laid out above.  

 

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote.

[Rudra]

I will never understand why so many games cling to the critical fail rule.

 

Example:

Target is helpless. (Affected by hold effect.) Your fire blaster puts his/her hand to the target's head to finish the target. Your fire blaster somehow fails to ignite his/her hand or suddenly decides to turn around and fire blast the wall behind him/her. (Congratulations, you rolled a 1. Or in game terms, the mandatory 5% miss chance got you.)

 

You try again. You fail to ignite your hand again or you project the fire blast somewhere off to your right. Completely missing the helpless, utterly immobile target you literally put your hand on. (That pesky mandatory 5% miss chance triggered again.)

 

After failing to ignite your hand or throwing your fire blast in a random direction away from the completely helpless target you are standing next to, you finally connect. (Streakbreaker kicked in.)

 

 

Why?!

 

Edit: That said, I am indifferent to the proposed change. I could see it on Aim since its purpose is to aim. Not so much on Build Up since its purpose is to build up power and unleash it. Just running off the power's names and primary effects. I would much rather that if you put in the effort to have a high accuracy, you get it. That is, take out the mandatory 5% miss chance.

 

Edit again: That said, I no more see the miss chance going away than I see Aim being allowed to break it. Sorry. Just not going to happen.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Rudra

[Rudra]

17 hours ago, Telamonster said:

Why such a buff would have value?  Right now, powers like aim, tactics, or build-up have little value since you can chew some inspirations instead for a shorter animation time and longer duration.

What inspiration has a longer duration than Tactics?!

[MTeague]

I can go along with this, only if minions, lieuts, bosses, all get powers that can ignore defenses and hit the player regardless of being softcapped.

Otherwise, no. Misses happen. If they can miss you, you have to have at least a snowballs chance in hell to miss them.

[Telamonster]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I will never understand why so many games cling to the critical fail rule.

 

Example:

Target is helpless. (Affected by hold effect.) Your fire blaster puts his/her hand to the target's head to finish the target. Your fire blaster somehow fails to ignite his/her hand or suddenly decides to turn around and fire blast the wall behind him/her. (Congratulations, you rolled a 1. Or in game terms, the mandatory 5% miss chance got you.)

 

You try again. You fail to ignite your hand again or you project the fire blast somewhere off to your right. Completely missing the helpless, utterly immobile target you literally put your hand on. (That pesky mandatory 5% miss chance triggered again.)

 

After failing to ignite your hand or throwing your fire blast in a random direction away from the completely helpless target you are standing next to, you finally connect. (Streakbreaker kicked in.)

 

 

Why?!

 

Edit: That said, I am indifferent to the proposed change. I could see it on Aim since its purpose is to aim. Not so much on Build Up since its purpose is to build up power and unleash it. Just running off the power's names and primary effects. I would much rather that if you put in the effort to have a high accuracy, you get it. That is, take out the mandatory 5% miss chance.

 

Edit again: That said, I no more see the miss chance going away than I see Aim being allowed to break it. Sorry. Just not going to happen.

I can see some logic behind some manner of minimum miss rate above zero; not from a player character failing to ignite their hand, but rather from a "the target just noticed a coin on the ground and ducked out of the way as you pulled the trigger", or "a gust of wind threw off your aim", or "this particular cartridge was loaded wrong and it didn't follow the anticipated path", or "that overly heroic activity in the bedroom last night left my arm weaker than normal" perspective.  I think that the 5% minimum miss rate is excessive in this case, but I'm hoping that proposing a small change and observing little negative effect can enable a more foundational change in the future.
 

[Telamonster]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I can go along with this, only if minions, lieuts, bosses, all get powers that can ignore defenses and hit the player regardless of being softcapped.

Otherwise, no. Misses happen. If they can miss you, you have to have at least a snowballs chance in hell to miss them.

Sure.  That's already true, but I'd be game for letting mobs operate under the same rules.  If they've got Aim then they can use it to harass the over-built squishies.

[MTeague]

3 minutes ago, Telamonster said:

Sure.  That's already true, but I'd be game for letting mobs operate under the same rules.  If they've got Aim then they can use it to harass the over-built squishies.

 

That's the thing. I'm pretty sure zero enemy mobs ever get a Build Up or an Aim.

I'd want to see it added to them, as the price of this.

But I'm also feeling somewhat vindictive and petty after a crappy day at work, which probably means I should log off the forums. Just gonna get myself in trouble.

[Telamonster]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

That's the thing. I'm pretty sure zero enemy mobs ever get a Build Up or an Aim.

I'd want to see it added to them, as the price of this.

But I'm also feeling somewhat vindictive and petty after a crappy day at work, which probably means I should log off the forums. Just gonna get myself in trouble.

I can’t vouch for Aim specifically, but I know that some bosses and up have animations that look like aim - a bright yellow highlight that lasts for a few seconds.  I also that there are some mobs in the Hero’s Epic and other higher level arcs that have targeting drones that let them shoot right through soft capped ranged defense.  
 

I could see a case for making villain powers like tactics or such a bit more common in general, but that’s outside the scope of this suggestion.

 

I know it doesn’t mean much coming from a random internet dude, but I’m sorry to hear that you had a crappy day. Hope you have a better evening at least. Cheers.

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

I can go along with this, only if minions, lieuts, bosses, all get powers that can ignore defenses and hit the player regardless of being softcapped.

Otherwise, no. Misses happen. If they can miss you, you have to have at least a snowballs chance in hell to miss them.

They never seem to miss me anyway, so, sure!

[EmperorSteele]

Since the game already essentially uses a d20 system to determine hits, how about if having X extra/rollover tohit allows a player/critter to roll with advantage?

 

For those who haven't played a modern tabletop d20 rpg in a while, basically that means roll twice and take the best result. It would reduce the odds of a crit fail to 1/400 under specific circumstances.

 

Maybe there's some considerations that should go into that to make it more balanced, but it's a start =D

[Telamonster]

1 hour ago, EmperorSteele said:

Since the game already essentially uses a d20 system to determine hits, how about if having X extra/rollover tohit allows a player/critter to roll with advantage?

 

For those who haven't played a modern tabletop d20 rpg in a while, basically that means roll twice and take the best result. It would reduce the odds of a crit fail to 1/400 under specific circumstances.

 

Maybe there's some considerations that should go into that to make it more balanced, but it's a start =D

Seems like a more complicated way of achieving a similar result, so from the results perspective it sounds fine.  Or am I misunderstanding how the mechanics would differ?  Would you just give an additional roll for each effect, distinguished simply by magnitude of success?  Something like "upon initial miss, [tactics/aim] allows for another accuracy check with [50%/90%] chance to hit"?
 

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, EmperorSteele said:

Since the game already essentially uses a d20 system to determine hits, how about if having X extra/rollover tohit allows a player/critter to roll with advantage?

 

For those who haven't played a modern tabletop d20 rpg in a while, basically that means roll twice and take the best result. It would reduce the odds of a crit fail to 1/400 under specific circumstances.

 

Maybe there's some considerations that should go into that to make it more balanced, but it's a start =D

 

Even if you reduce the minimum possible chance to miss to 1 in 400, you’re still enforcing the dogma that sometimes you just have to miss, for no reason. 

[Rudra]

Personally, I'd like to see a checked chance to miss.

 Like, if the target is held by a greater magnitude hold than the target has hold protection, or if the target is affected by both an immobilization and stun that both exceed the target's protection against immobilize and stun, the 5% mandatory miss chance is not applied. You can still miss if you have a low accuracy, but not because you are forced to by mandatory crit fail.

 

If the target is simply unaware, then the mandatory miss chance still applies because for random reason the target can shift enough to not be hit.

 

If the target is in combat and not held or stunned+immob'ed, then obviously, the mandatory miss chance stands.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add comma after Personally.

[MTeague]

Hey, you never know where there's a banana peel on the floor as you were winding up for your big uppercut.

[Bill Z Bubba]

/jranger

[PeregrineFalcon]

I don't like it.

[Haijinx]

Lets just do this accross the board.  Softcap is boring.  I'm tired of being hit 5% of the time.  I want to never ever get hit again.

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Lets just do this accross the board.  Softcap is boring.  I'm tired of being hit 5% of the time.  I want to never ever get hit again.

     Hey!   That's silly and wrong.  Why are you picking on +0 Minions the only group of foes for which this usually applies.

 

     And officially (for me) this is a no, not needed or wanted change.  What next?   Going to want to lower their health or resistance because we're tired of automatically landed hits leaving a sliver of health so we have to burn extra end and time taking another attack.  One thing after another next thing you know Boxing is a end free, auto hit power that one shots everything.  Or maybe instead of auto hitting the game incorporates varying hit ceilings.  One normal, one if your immobilized ... but wait how are you immobilized?  I mean generally the lower half is shown as covered (yeah are you aiming at its feet covered by err cover) the rest is free to twist but what if it's Mind Control vs Ice vs Granite.  Similar questions with Holds.  Wouldn't a Gravity Hold be the worst I mean it would accelerate the bullet, sword, energy Blast (pesky smashing damage) into the target?  Or make aiming at anything else harder, I mean gravity can bend light much less what it might do to anything else passing by.  Talk about taking wind into account, or Earth's rotation or yeah that's silly.

    They, the designer's, drew a line at 95%.  Could they have drawn the line elsewhere or even sliding.  Sure, but the combat is simple, straightforward, familiar conceptually to most and, while a non-issue 18yrs down the road, doesn't require the incremental increases in computing power/time increasing levels of such complications would be needed to add such features to the game.

[Telamonster]

24 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     Hey!   That's silly and wrong.  Why are you picking on +0 Minions the only group of foes for which this usually applies.

 

     And officially (for me) this is a no, not needed or wanted change.  What next?   Going to want to lower their health or resistance because we're tired of automatically landed hits leaving a sliver of health so we have to burn extra end and time taking another attack.  One thing after another next thing you know Boxing is a end free, auto hit power that one shots everything.  Or maybe instead of auto hitting the game incorporates varying hit ceilings.  One normal, one if your immobilized ... but wait how are you immobilized?  I mean generally the lower half is shown as covered (yeah are you aiming at its feet covered by err cover) the rest is free to twist but what if it's Mind Control vs Ice vs Granite.  Similar questions with Holds.  Wouldn't a Gravity Hold be the worst I mean it would accelerate the bullet, sword, energy Blast (pesky smashing damage) into the target?  Or make aiming at anything else harder, I mean gravity can bend light much less what it might do to anything else passing by.  Talk about taking wind into account, or Earth's rotation or yeah that's silly.

    They, the designer's, drew a line at 95%.  Could they have drawn the line elsewhere or even sliding.  Sure, but the combat is simple, straightforward, familiar conceptually to most and, while a non-issue 18yrs down the road, doesn't require the incremental increases in computing power/time increasing levels of such complications would be needed to add such features to the game.

That’s a hell of a straw man argument there.  I wasn’t suggesting any of that; simply a way to make snipes and aim powers special that wouldn’t affect combat balance by more than 1-2% on average, and wouldn’t be difficult to implement or disable should it prove problematic.

 

[Rudra]

You both took a laughable approach to responding. (As in I found myself laughing reading the posts.) The dev's put in the mandatory 5% miss chance. People complained that the number generator was giving a lot of back to back 5% misses, to the point that characters were dying because they were only getting the mandatory 5% miss chance as their attack result in some fights. The devs added streakbreaker. So it obviously can be changed.

 

As for @Doomguide2005's comment about lowering health or resist? The game used to allow one-hit kills. Then players complained their squishies were getting one-shot fairly routinely. So now no target can be one-shot. It is not a question of health or resist, it is coded that regardless of damage taken, unless the target was already damaged, it could not be defeated in one hit. So I really don't see that going back to the way it was. The provided example fails on basis of how the game has already been modified.

 

In the case of Boxing is an end free, auto-hit power that one-shots everything? (Surprised you didn't say Brawl since you have to wait to get Boxing.) No one will ever ask for something this stupid because they would then have to face it themselves on their character. The mobs' Brawl would be Boxing instead or Brawl would get the same treatment. At least, that would be my counter-suggestion. Now players can face the same outcome. As far as I know, everything done to change how powers act on mobs, also applies to how powers act on players. So your over-exaggeration fails to accomplish anything other than point out you are over-reacting to the thread.

 

In the case of my comment about a target being held or affected by combined immobilizations and stuns to achieve the same effect, that is based on basic reasoning. The target cannot move. How is the target evading? You can argue against that all you like. I enjoy a good debate. Hells, @MTeague already punched a hole through my argument with his humor. The target may not be able to move, but the player can and who knows what happened. Maybe my character sneezed when trying to hit the held target. Five times in a row until streakbreaker kicks in. However, your response is not a reasoned debate. It is an over-reaction.

 

There is no harm in people asking for something. Disagree, by all means. That is the point of the forum. People present ideas and the forum debates it back and forth.

 

Having a 5% miss chance is a holdover. Having a mandatory miss chance makes sense as explained by some of the other posters. As stated, the target could for random reason move and throw off the target or the player character can be affected by... something.

 

Your responses are bit over the top though. You took a singular idea that would not necessarily open up other changes, and turned it not into a slippery slope argument, but into a gaping pit trap under the game.

 

It just feels like you took exaggeration for the sake of making a point too far.

[Doomguide2005]

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

 

It just feels like you took exaggeration for the sake of making a point too far.

     Guilty as charged.  It was hyperbole which is why I started by quoting Haijinx (not so much strawman, at least not by intent) aimed again not so much at the OP but a slippery slope I see getting iced up in the thread overall.  And similar threads that have and will likely continue to pop up in these forums.  I overreacted a tad as this particular slope irritates me somewhat (the idea of "always" hitting).   I'm much more on the side of Murphy on this particular topic.

 

     And yes I meant and was thinking of Brawl not Boxing.

 

     And no a Held target with nothing else considered probably isn't missed anywhere near 5% of time.  But I also think that set of circumstances also occurs with extreme rarity in combat, or in life in general and is not 0.00%.  No the target isn't likely evading but that's only the tip of the iceberg of random, unpredicted occurrences (like banana peels or sweat running in your eye) that will cause the chance to move off of zero.  And yes that's not what the OP is asking for, not even close.  But it is at the bottom of that slope.  Banana peels not withstanding I'm not interested in getting there faster in this manner.

 

     I am familiar with the one-shot rule.  You are correct the rules and game have changed, lots.  But the foes didn't and don't have any such protection/rule applied to them currently and even if they do it could be changed like anything else in the game.  Edit:  So no there's more than a few ways the players and critters are treated differently and don't use the same playbook starting with the base to hit.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[MTeague]

I actually don't think people miss anywhere near as much as they think they do.

Not overall, over the course of multiple missions. Sure, in any given 2-3 hits, RNG can be RNG, and sometimes it loves to make you cry.

 

But people are reallllllllly good at remembering what they consider to be "unfair" misses, while taking lucky hits pretty much for granted. If you collect data over the results of several missions from your combat log, I doubt anyone is really missing more often than they should. It's just the "OMFG really!?!?!?" when your stalker winds up for a build-up assassin's strike and whiffs that sticks in the forefront of your mind.

 

That said, I do agree with @Rudra that there's nothing wrong with putting in the ask. Other posters can and will and should offer their own feedback, say why they like the idea, or not.  The right to make the ask does not provide immunity to feedback, nor should it. But we can all should keep in mind that people are making suggestions that they think would benefit the overall gaming experience. No one is operating from malice or a desire to ruin my fun or yours.  They're only seeking to enhance their own, and we certainly ought to be able to at least view suggestions in such light.