Tankiest Non Brute/Tank???

[zenijos10]

44 minutes ago, Linea said:

Linea Durability Ratings

Anything rated above 2 can tank the majority of official content.

 

Tanks rate up to 13.

Brutes rate up to 10.

ANY Tank or Brute can rate at least 6.  ... The only possible exception would be regen, I just don't see that many regens these days.

Scrappers, Stalkers, and Sentinels up to 6.

I would rate some truly exceptional Controllers and Doms as 6, but in general these will rate lower.

Veats, Heats, Defenders rate up to 5.

Masterminds, Corruptors, Controllers and Doms are not far behind Defenders, and also rate up to 5, but are much harder to get there.

Blasters rate up to 3 or 4.

 

Defenses Armors rate up to 13

Resist Armors rate up to 6

Heal-Tank Armors rate up to 5

 

Is there an underlying mathematic model for these scores or is this just how they feel to you?

[JasperStone]

Rad/Rad

with fight pool does pretty well

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Sentinels have no aggro management tools, and sentinel damage output isn't sufficient to overcome the aggro generated by most other archetypes even with the higher Threat modifier, so you'd have to invest in the Presence pool.  Without that, you wouldn't be able to pull a -1 underling off of a "healer".

 

Also, sentinels have good damage mitigation and status protection.  They can handle melee combat very well, and some of their secondaries and *PPs include PBAoEs which would help with aggro management once you have a Taunt.  Staying at range would be a gross underutilization of sentinel capabilities for this project.  You'd be better served by any other archetype if you're insistent on range tanking.

Ooooooh.  Lol.  I am not trying to “Tank”.   I am just trying to survive.   Substitute “Tanky” with “Most Survivable”.   Unfortunately I cannot use powers like Phase Shift or anything that interferes with attacking.  Invulnerability Unstoppable and Rune of Protection are allowed

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

There is no "overkill".
There is only "Kill" with ever-greater confidence levels.

And on a defense-maxed team, FF stops becoming a buff and becomes a DDR field with medium combat controls.

Yeah…..but my goal is to outlive my …..erm “teammates”

[Linea]

1 hour ago, zenijos10 said:

Is there an underlying mathematic model for these scores or is this just how they feel to you?

It's the difficulty number of 801 I can solo with a given AT, or that I've seen another comfortably team tank without significant buffing.

 

Standard content is not overly useful to me for measuring potential durability.  I've soloed a +4x8 ITF with everything except a petless MM, and that lack was due to lack of offense, not durability issues.   

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Linea said:

Linea Durability Ratings

Anything rated above 2 can tank the majority of official content.

 

Tanks rate up to 13.

Brutes rate up to 10.

ANY Tank or Brute can rate at least 6.  ... The only possible exception would be regen, I just don't see that many regens these days.

Scrappers, Stalkers, and Sentinels up to 6.

I would rate some truly exceptional Controllers and Doms as 6, but in general these will rate lower.

Veats, Heats, Defenders rate up to 5.

Masterminds, Corruptors, Controllers and Doms are not far behind Defenders, and also rate up to 5, but are much harder to get there.

Blasters rate up to 3 or 4.

 

Defenses Armors rate up to 13

Resist Armors rate up to 6

Heal-Tank Armors rate up to 5

 

As a long time Dark/ Invul Brute player I can tell you for a fact I can out tank a good third of the Tank armor powersets.   Thats based on game mechanics, invulnerability, and specific build

 

I do believe rating “Archetypes” without consideration of powersets is about as useful as the description “Ranged” in the character creation screen for Blasters (who almost always perform better at Point Blank based on powers targeting….unless you choose one of the few truly ranged primaries and ….very very carefully cherry ppock a secondary and build for fully ranged)

Edited April 7, 2022 by Snarky

[Linea]

3 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I. An tell tou for a fact I can out tank a good third of the Tank armor powersets.

• Brute defense armors built to maximum durability will in most cases rate higher than Tank Resist Armors and Tank Heal-Tank Armors.  This is the nature of the game, ATs partially overlap.
• Given Tank Inv/Dark and Brute Dark/Inv both built to maximum durability, the Tank will be more durable if for no other reason than it's easier to build, has a few extra ios, is easier to drive, and has a few more HP.

 

13 minutes ago, Snarky said:

... powersets  ...

• If you want to be precise, you'd need an evaluation of every Primary and Secondary combination.  I don't have time to go through every armor set, and I definitely don't have time for every primary and secondary.

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Linea said:

• Brute defense armors built to maximum durability will in most cases rate higher than Tank Resist Armors and Tank Heal-Tank Armors.  This is the nature of the game, ATs partially overlap.
• Given Tank Inv/Dark and Brute Dark/Inv both built to maximum durability, the Tank will be more durable if for no other reason than it's easier to build, has a few extra ios, is easier to drive, and has a few more HP.

 

• If you want to be precise, you'd need an evaluation of every Primary and Secondary combination.  I don't have time to go through every armor set, and I definitely don't have time for every primary and secondary.

You made a broad statement ranking each archetype.  Then you responded that a Inv/Dark Tank is better than a Dark/Invul Brute.  and I truly thank you for pointing that out (eye roll)

 

My point was (and is) your broad statement ranking archetypes is, at it's core, indefensible.  It is not true.  Pointing out the Tank version of my example is tougher than the Brute DOES NOT NEGATE the fact that the Dark/Invul Brute is tougher than many Tanks.  Which (please stay with me here) proves that your original statement is incorrect.

[Luminara]

18 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Ooooooh.  Lol.  I am not trying to “Tank”.   I am just trying to survive.   Substitute “Tanky” with “Most Survivable”.   Unfortunately I cannot use powers like Phase Shift or anything that interferes with attacking.  Invulnerability Unstoppable and Rune of Protection are allowed

 

Then your original sentinel plan would be fine.  Dark/Invuln would be a good pairing, with Dark's -ToHit complementing /Invuln's Defenses.  Throw in Darkest Night from one of the Dark *PPs and you probably won't have much need for resistance buffs.

[arcane]

44 minutes ago, Snarky said:

As a long time Dark/ Invul Brute player I can tell you for a fact I can out tank a good third of the Tank armor powersets.   Thats based on game mechanics, invulnerability, and specific build

None of the armor sets should be dying on a tank outside of extremely rare exceptions (a few can’t handle Lord Recluse). So I don’t know how you could get this data except from watching bad tanker players.

 

You need tanks to die to gather evidence for your claim, but if they die they suck too much to reasonably be part of the data set. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by arcane

[KaizenSoze]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

You made a broad statement ranking each archetype.  Then you responded that a Inv/Dark Tank is better than a Dark/Invul Brute.  and I truly thank you for pointing that out (eye roll)

 

My point was (and is) your broad statement ranking archetypes is, at it's core, indefensible.  It is not true.  Pointing out the Tank version of my example is tougher than the Brute DOES NOT NEGATE the fact that the Dark/Invul Brute is tougher than many Tanks.  Which (please stay with me here) proves that your original statement is incorrect.

Oh dear. You make a vague statement about wanting a tanky build.

 

Linea has created the best missions currently for testing tanks, which he runs constantly. He gives his opinion based on that experience and you get all snarky with him.

 

Have you ever run any 801s? It is a total meat grinder that eats tanks like candy. Don't disregard is his experience, just because it doesn't match your experience running much easier content.

[KaizenSoze]

4 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Tries it on one of my Sentinels. I already knew that I was invited so I could be mocked, and sure enough after I face planted. But I already knew that was going to happen, so I told them that I hope they enjoyed the show before sticking them on ignore. 

 

Moral of the story. If you are going to run 801, do it on your own. There's nothing to be gained by interacting with those who do it regularly. 

If anyone was mocking you for trying an 801. They were jerks.

 

As much as I like trying to make 801 builds and take a certain pride in figuring out ones that can survive. Mocking people for trying is just rude.

[Snarky]

47 minutes ago, arcane said:

None of the armor sets should be dying on a tank outside of extremely rare exceptions (a few can’t handle Lord Recluse). So I don’t know how you could get this data except from watching bad tanker players.

 

You need tanks to die to gather evidence for your claim, but if they die they suck too much to reasonably be part of the data set. 

My Brute can Tank Lord Recluse.  You just said some Tanks cannot.  Is that enough data.  I can do this all night long.

[Pzn]

I'd recommend a nature defender with scorpion shield.  It's easy to get soft capped to s/l/e defense with scorpion shield and nature will give you resists to all.  On top of that you have absorb, regen, and heals. 

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, Pzn said:

I'd recommend a nature defender with scorpion shield.  It's easy to get soft capped to s/l/e defense with scorpion shield and nature will give you resists to all.  On top of that you have absorb, regen, and heals. 

I’m not positive about hard content but yeah this is completely invincible on S/L heavy +4x8.

[arcane]

32 minutes ago, Snarky said:

My Brute can Tank Lord Recluse.  You just said some Tanks cannot.  Is that enough data.  I can do this all night long.

No it’s not. Lord Recluse is 0.00[however many zeroes]01% of the game and requires very specific tools to tank. It’s completely possible, even likely, for a brute with those specific tools to top a tank without them while being inferior to the tank in many other ways. Nobody cares. You can’t prove anything about general play because only an idiot tank would be dying.

Edited April 7, 2022 by arcane

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Linea said:

• Brute defense armors built to maximum durability will in most cases rate higher than Tank Resist Armors and Tank Heal-Tank Armors.  This is the nature of the game, ATs partially overlap.
• Given Tank Inv/Dark and Brute Dark/Inv both built to maximum durability, the Tank will be more durable if for no other reason than it's easier to build, has a few extra ios, is easier to drive, and has a few more HP.

 

• If you want to be precise, you'd need an evaluation of every Primary and Secondary combination.  I don't have time to go through every armor set, and I definitely don't have time for every primary and secondary.

Defence sets definitely seem to fair better as the content gets harder than resist sets or heal sets. I can do 801.5 on my /RadA easily enough but if i step into 801.7 it is almost instant death lol.  It is built more for damage but i doubt going more tanky would save it 😛.  /Shield or /SR for example have a much easier time. If they can not break through your defence you will be stupidly hard to take down.

[Snarky]

18 minutes ago, arcane said:

No it’s not. Lord Recluse is 0.00[however many zeroes]01% of the game and requires very specific tools to tank. It’s completely possible, even likely, for a brute with those specific tools to top a tank without them while being inferior to the tank in many other ways. Nobody cares. You can’t prove anything about general play because only an idiot tank would be dying.

So.... no matter how many examples I show of this Brute can do better than that Tank you will state that as a fringe case.  Interesting.  

 

Still sticking by my rebuttal point.  Tanks are not always better than Brutes.  

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Yeah…..but my goal is to outlive my …..erm “teammates”

Keeping your teammates alive spreads the damage around.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

My Brute can Tank Lord Recluse.  You just said some Tanks cannot.  Is that enough data.  I can do this all night long.

I've tanked LR on a Blaster.

Not sure if this actually says anything about my skill.
Or if I'm just so terrible that I default to Tanking on everything...

[Linea]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

It was just your run of the mill "Sentinels Suck" people.

• Sentinels have their place.  I have a sentinel player that joins almost daily and runs either Sentinels or Defenders each day.  I run 801 teams up to 7 with a sentinel, and even All Sentinel 801 teams.  6 is safer, but 7 is doable as a team.

 

46 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So.... no matter how many examples I show of this Brute can do better than that Tank you will state that as a fringe case.  Interesting.  

Still sticking by my rebuttal point.  Tanks are not always better than Brutes.  

• A Linea built defender is more durable than most tanks, and has more firepower than most blasters.  That does not mean defenders are more durable than tanks, nor does it mean that defenders have more firepower than blasters.
• Mirrored builds Brute vs Tank, driven by the same player, the tank should be either easier to build, or more durable, or both.  But I'm sure it's possible to create some wonky build where this is not true. 

 

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Which (please stay with me here) proves that your original statement is incorrect.

• Below is a slightly more specific answer ... and after that I just do not have any more time to spare on the subject.

 

 

Linea Durability Ratings (Revised)

Anything rated above 2 can tank the majority of official content

Most tanks driven by most players do not even rate 2

 

Defense Tanks rate 6 to 13

Resist Tanks rate 5 to 7

Heal-Amor Tanks rate 5 to 6

 

Defense Brutes rate 5 to 10

Resist Brutes rate 5 to 7, but tanks rate higher more easily

Heal-Armor Brutes rate 2 to 5

 

Defense Scrappers, Stalkers, and Sentinels rate 2 to 6

 

Resist Scrappers, Stalkers and Sentinels are unrated, but should rate 2 to 3

Heal-Armor Scrappers rate 2 to 3

 

Veats, Heats, Defenders rate 2 to 5  ... I ran an empath through 2, once and only once.  If you want to discount that, then rate them 1 to 5

Some truly exceptional Veats or Heats may rate 6

 

Masterminds, Corruptors, Controllers and Doms are not far behind Defenders, and rate 0 to 5, but are harder to get to rate higher

Some truly exceptional Controllers and Doms rate 6.  I am NOT that player, mine rate 2 to 5

 

Blasters rate 0 to 4

 

Regen is Unrated, in this context Heal-Armor means Willpower and Bio Armor

If you want to account for build quality, set all low end numbers to zero

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Linea

[Pzn]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I’m not positive about hard content but yeah this is completely invincible on S/L heavy +4x8.

What are you talking about dude.  s/l/e covers almost all damage in the game.

[Linea]

52 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Defence sets definitely seem to fair better as the content gets harder than resist sets or heal sets.

It's a game imbalance.  Defense sets can cap defense, ddr, resist, and rdr.  Resist sets can cap resist, rdr, lack in defense, and are severely restricted in the amount of ddr they can get.

[Troo]

10 minutes ago, Linea said:

Regen is Unrated

 

so mean. what did regen do to you Linea?!

 

most everything can be extremely tough until it runs into it's weakness. this is as intended, is it not?

[Hyperstrike]

As for a Regen Brute and tanking.
Here's five minutes of lazy thinking.
 

Spoiler

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.2.17
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Lunge -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(5), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(7)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(7), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(9), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(9), Pnc-Heal(11)
Level 2: Spine Burst -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(15), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(19)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(19), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(21), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Prv-Heal(23), Prv-Absorb%(23)
Level 6: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 8: Quick Recovery -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A)
Level 10: Impale -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(25), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(27), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(29)
Level 12: Dull Pain -- RgnTss-Regen+(A)
Level 14: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 16: Integration -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(31), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(31), Pnc-Heal(31)
Level 18: Quills -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(33), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(34)
Level 20: Resilience -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(34), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(36), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(36), GldArm-3defTpProc(37)
Level 22: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(37), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(39), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(39), Rct-ResDam%(40)
Level 26: Ripper -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(42)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(43), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(43), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(43), Pnc-Heal(45)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(45)
Level 32: Throw Spines -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(46), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(48)
Level 35: Revive -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(48), Rct-Def/Rchg(48), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50)
Level 44: Infiltration -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50)
Level 47: Superior Conditioning -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A)
Level 49: Physical Perfection -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11), Mrc-Rcvry+(13)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(13)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Diamagnetic Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Longbow Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany
Level 50: Melee Radial Embodiment
------------

 

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