Thor: Love & Thunder

[El D]

13 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Don't get me wrong.  Yes, I have problems with the latest film.  But the basic "conceit" of the films is something I agree with.

The first film is the full and "alien" majesty of Asgard in its prime.  Where Thor is woefully unprepared to deal with Earth/Midgard and the initial growth from being a child.

The second film shows his further alienation from his home culture and his assimilation of Earth culture.  Plus the traumas involved when his home is threatened.

The third film is kinda the "Rebelious teenager" entry in the franchise.  It's not that Thor's being rebellious.  It's that he's taking on more responsibilities with his own people, while still assimilating Earth culture.  And the Immigrant Song is the initial melding of his life as a god and his life on earth as a whole.

Infinity War MAJORLY FUBAR's Thor's growth.  Sending him off looking for himself after the end of the two films.

In L&T, he's managed to find a new balance in his life.  Yeah.  Unstable and a bit crazy.  But whose life ISN'T?
And the story of the loss of love and his acceptance of a different path for his life kinda ties it all back.

1: Operatic->Cinematic
2: Cinematic
3: Cinematic->Rock
4: Rock

 

That's a fair, accurate summation! I suppose I ought to have added the caveat in my prior post that it wasn't meant as a takedown of the Thor movies - I've seen them all and enjoy them (honestly like Taika's take the most) - mostly just grumblings of missed opportunities. A sort of 'I enjoy what the MCU has built with him, but it's also easy to see where things could have gone differently has the focus been shifted here or there' sort of deal. xD

Edited July 18, 2022 by El D

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, El D said:

 

That's a fair, accurate summation! I suppose I ought to have added the caveat in my prior post that it wasn't meant as a takedown of the Thor movies - I've seen them all and enjoy them (honestly like Taika's take the most) - mostly just grumblings of missed opportunities. A sort of 'I enjoy what the MCU has built with him, but it's also easy to see where things could have gone differently has the focus been shifted here or there' sort of deal. xD

L&T suffers from "BIGGER!  BETTER!  MORE MORE MORE!"

[biostem]

One thing that confused me:

Spoiler

Was Gorr's daughter "Love" actually his "original" daughter resurrected, or was she some sort of incarnation/avatar of Eternity, that assumed her form?  Also, why not wish for his people/civilization, (including himself), to be restored to a lush/rejuvenated version of their planet, without their greedy god present?

 

[vicuna]

11 minutes ago, biostem said:

One thing that confused me:

  Hide contents

Was Gorr's daughter "Love" actually his "original" daughter resurrected, or was she some sort of incarnation/avatar of Eternity, that assumed her form?  Also, why not wish for his people/civilization, (including himself), to be restored to a lush/rejuvenated version of their planet, without their greedy god present?

 

I believe in the comic, he has no love for his people who are blindly following the gods without reasons.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

I guess when you're a parent (or Auntie), the rest of the Universe, even the Gods, can go stuff themselves.

Et en plus: <<Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer>>. - Voltaire
("If God did not exist - it would be necessary to invent one.")

If Gorr recreated an Eden, odds are a God'd turn up to rule over it. Whether it was someone who proclaimed themselves a God, or an actual one who just liked the neighbourhood and moved in. 

 

On that point, though: in Thor 1  / Captain America / Avengers, Asgardians weren't gods (and the one who claimed to be turned out a bit... puny.)

Just highly advanced, long-lived beings capable of wielding sufficiently advanced technology to be indistiguishable from magic, and a bit of actual magic on the side.

Ego wasn't a God, he was a Living Planet/Celestial.

Are Zeus & co actual God gods - and is Thor now too - or am I overthinking the whole thing? Because setting yourself up as a God when it's just tricks, magic, and superb abs is kind of proving Gorr's point.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[biostem]

10 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Are Zeus & co actual God gods - and is Thor now too - or am I overthinking the whole thing? Because setting yourself up as a God when it's just tricks, magic, and superb abs is kind of proving Gorr's point.

That's a good point, especially since there are many non-god entities in the universe that could wipe the floor with them - imagine if Wanda had stumbled into Omnipotence City during her rampage...

 

Spoiler

I still can't fathom how, after all he's been through, that Hercules could pose any threat to Thor, though...

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Not liking that set up with the new blonde dude Biostem mentioned.

Smacks of an old-timer who's tired, maybe a little underpowered, but has cunning and a bunch of friends...

...vs hungry newbie who reminds him way too much of the the arrogant little SOB he used to be (but stronger.)

 

Seen that movie more than a few times. Hopefully they do something better with it.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Smacks of an old-timer who's tired, maybe a little underpowered, but has cunning and a bunch of friends...

...vs hungry newbie who reminds him way too much of the the arrogant little SOB he used to be (but stronger.)

Spoiler

Is Hercules supposed to be stronger than Thor?  Even if he is, the only was I could see him besting, or at least rivaling Thor, (given the latter's many experiences fighting other superpowered individuals), would be if he either fought dirty, or if they played him much more no-nonsense and calculating, instead of arrogant and boastful.

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Spoiler

Is Hercules supposed to be stronger than Thor?

If you check Marvel's ratings, it's a more or less even match in terms of pure strength (class-100s) and near-invincibility.

Both can take a lot of punishment, up to and including surviving the vacuum of space for a short while.

Thor has a wide range of powers but seems to need a focus like Stormbringer or Mjolnir to unleash them. (Whether that's just a magic-feather thing remains to be seen.)

Hercules has neat toys too - an armoured cloak, enchanted bow and a mace - but doesn't need them.

 

Hercules has backup from Zeus and allied Greek-origin gods (apart from Hera, who isn't a fan.)

Thor has mostly-mortal allies with technology.

 

So there's no real edge. But y'know what... 

 

So the way I'd see it being lazily written is "who wants it more".

 

Out of combat, Hercules is... well, somewhere between pre-exile Thor from the first movie and Party Thor from What If. Fully confident. Bit spoiled. Undefeated.

Hemsworth-Thor has seen some stuff, had some corners knocked off and a bit of the arrogance, which also comes with some weariness and self-doubt. He also probably sees a lot of himself in the younger hero. And if he was defeated in glorious battle with all his friends waiting to feast eternally, would that be such a bad thing?

But of course then they Unite Against A Bigger Bad, Find A Purpose, Have Life Learning Experiences, yadda yadda...

 

In the comics - they wind up being friends, though I doubt Herc would accept Thor as any kind of grizzled mentor. Hemsworth is still relatively young as an actor so there's a couple of team-ups in that: but could also be a good point for Hemsworth to exit frame left (to Valhalla?) and hand over the torch to a new blonde lunk and move to other projects, or just spend time with his ridiculously adorable kids.

 

So, yup, that could be a very lazy, wildly obvious next step if they want to take that. Hopefully they do something better with it.

 

[Mr. Vee]

Your 'younger' and 'grizzled' should be reversed 😛

[DougGraves]

I thoroughly enjoyed L&T.  But then I like the CW shows (except Superman & Lois).  Whereas I can't stand the Marvel netflix shows (except season 1 off Daredevil).

 

I like fun superhero movies and shows.  

[Frostbiter]

Love and Thunder was faily good. I wouldn't call it a great movie.

 

Spoiler

It did make me realize how much comics were heavily influenced by the medium itself with the bright vivid costume colors not working so well in a live action movie. Thor's especially. It kind of pushed his over into looking like a costume and not something you'd wear around without the other gods making fun of you. Which happened.

 

I find myself wondering if the wish made by the big bad at the end wasn't just simply for his daughter to return or if Eternity isn't playing some game of his own. Yeah, she came back but she is definitely not the same. Also, I can't help but feel like I'd keep the power of Thor if I was dying of cancer instead of dying of cancer. Seems like a no-brainer. Was there some reason she couldn't just stay that way?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Frostbiter

[battlewraith]

Spoiler

It was revealed that Mjolnir draws on the life energy of the user. So Jane using it, despite becoming superpowered, was accelerating her own demise. That's why Thor talks her into staying behind at the hospital.

 

 

[Frostbiter]

55 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

  Reveal hidden contents

It was revealed that Mjolnir draws on the life energy of the user. So Jane using it, despite becoming superpowered, was accelerating her own demise. That's why Thor talks her into staying behind at the hospital.

 

 

 

Spoiler

Aye, I heard that bit of hand-waiving but if it's true then why did Mjolnir call to her or accept her? Did it want her dead sooner? I understood Mjolnir was called to protect her by Thor's years early request but how did it think it was helping?

 

[battlewraith]

59 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Aye, I heard that bit of hand-waiving but if it's true then why did Mjolnir call to her or accept her? Did it want her dead sooner? I understood Mjolnir was called to protect her by Thor's years early request but how did it think it was helping?

 

Spoiler

Does it think? The thing is enchanted by Odin and it's responding to direction from Thor--which I guess means that it follows the intentions/will of the beings that have control over it. Jane's sickness might have been a condition that triggered it, but it may have no intellect to discern whether it's actually helping or harming her. It's typical of the kind of writing in these movies, it doesn't hold up well to a serious degree of scrutiny.

 

[Frostbiter]

28 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

  Hide contents

Does it think? The thing is enchanted by Odin and it's responding to direction from Thor--which I guess means that it follows the intentions/will of the beings that have control over it. Jane's sickness might have been a condition that triggered it, but it may have no intellect to discern whether it's actually helping or harming her. It's typical of the kind of writing in these movies, it doesn't hold up well to a serious degree of scrutiny.

Spoiler

Mjolnir has a limited form of intelligence or it wouldn't be able to judge who is worthy and who isn't. Also without some intellect the geas laid on it by Thor would not have activated. It does beg the question as to what would have happened if she'd just stayed the goddess of thunder.

 

The whole movie just kind of seemed to treat Jane as if this was her sendoff, which it was. Rather disrespectfully at the start too with all the jokes about how generic her name.

 

[High_Beam]

Saw it this past weekend.  My nephew (who is a fairly good bellweather for certain types of movies said that it was a little to Shticky.  But I liked it.  Not as good as Ragnarok, but better than the others.  I was disappointed certain things.

 

Spoiler

Watering down Valkyrie and taking away her drunken fun aspect, they kind of ruined her.  Wished they had actually done something more fun with the goats I mean they are part of Norse mythology.

 

But nitpicks aside, it was worth the watch but unlike Ragnarok, its not gonna be a repeat view for me except when I am doing marathons.

[Ulysses Dare]

Just watched it last night. It was okay but the mood whiplash was something else. In the first moments we jump from the tragedy of Gorr the God Butcher to Thor hamming it up with the Guardians to Jane has cancer. It felt like it should have been two separate movies.

[Glacier Peak]

I watched it, liked it, and thought about how much money GNR made from the soundtrack use 😆 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

I enjoyed it as a fun popcorn flick...

Spoiler

...though there was rather too much stuffed into it.

The bad:

• The screaming goats meme was actively annoying and felt shoehorned in. 
• The subplot with the kids made for a nice little Thunderdome tribute at the start, and a terrifying Children's Crusade of an Army at the end (battle bunny!) but they were neither in nor out of it that much as to make a difference.
• The Guardian cameo was unnecessary (or could have been cut to a very short montage), and Pratt's phoned-in mugging irks me these days.

The good:

• Jane's illness and glorious death was... mostly tastefully handled, and as to the fridging question - if you know you've gotta get fridged, which we all do at some point, do you want to go out quietly or go down swingin'?
• Montage of Jane & Thor drifting apart surprisingly good. Often, there isn't That One Big Reason bad things happen in relationships, it's unusual seeing it on screen or done quite so well.
• Val clearly having more fun being stabbed than running a theme park. 
• More Sif pls. Good to see her back even briefly.

The odd:

• Feels like it should have been longer. A lot longer. Some scenes felt trimmed to the bone, others missing entirely (eg: rumoured scene of Gorr having a crack at Black Panther's goddess, Bastet).
• Almost too many jokes - I did laugh at Bao, God Of Dumplings, but was still puzzled as to why that was in there and it kind of broke the mood a little too much.

 

[biostem]

Spoiler

A few thoughts:

 

Was it that Mjolnir instilled combat knowledge to Jane when she transformed, since it had been with Thor for, presumably, like 1000 years?

 

Was it that Mjolnir wasn't so much killing Jane, but it was purging/neutralizing her body of the chemo  drugs, thereby allowing the cancer, which is still "her" to spread and/or increasing the rate of spread?

 

I get that the gods are greedy/selfish/etc, but are they just supposed to be so overconfident that they can't see an obvious threat for what it is?

 

We saw an Asgardian in Agents of Shield, and while they are tougher/stronger/longer lived, is Valkyrie a step above the rest, or is it just decades or even centuries/millennia of training and experience that distinguishes her?  Thor does appear to have powers and abilities beyond those of "regular" Asgardians, though...

 

Beyond the comedic value, could any form of propulsion/vehicle have allowed them to travel the rainbow bridge that Stormbringer generated?  I mean, could they have mounted it on a truck if they wanted?

 

If Zeus was able to basically 1-shot Korg, who is a veteran of the gladiator matches that Hulk also fought in, was that due to Zeus wielding it, because it didn't seem like Valkyrie was able to pull off such feats.

 

Thanks!

 

[Luminara]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, biostem said:

If Zeus was able to basically 1-shot Korg, who is a veteran of the gladiator matches that Hulk also fought in, was that due to Zeus wielding it, because it didn't seem like Valkyrie was able to pull off such feats.

 

Haven't seen the latest film, but I can answer this question.

 

Spoiler

Korg himself never fought Hulk, nor any of Hulk's competitors.  In his own words, in Ragnarok, "Yeah, no, I just do the smaller fights to warm up the crowd."  Also, when Thor points out that he's made of rock, Korg replies, "Perishable rock.  Oh, there goes another one.  See?"

 

Additionally, in The Dark World, Thor one-shots a Kronan (a member of Korg's race) in the fight to reclaim Vanaheim (shown just after Loki's sentencing).

 

Korg isn't exceptional, or even a good fighter, in the films.  He's comic relief and exposition.