Everyone has to make at least one Regen post

[Menelruin]

I have no idea if the code allows this or not....

 

Make instant healing a toggle, into a REACTIVE power;  while it's on, any time your character takes damage, they instantly heal either a tiny flat amount of HP, or a tiny % of their max HP (I'm not sure which is more balanced).  This would be neutral across damage TYPES, but not damage STYLES, obviously:  Against big, single hits, it won't do much (which fits thematically), but against "death by a thousand cuts" attacks or DoTs, it should be excellent against them.....which again, fits for a Regen character being tough against things that work like poisons.

 

Just wanted to bam this out before I forgot. 

[Marbing]

46 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

I have no idea if the code allows this or not....

 

Make instant healing a toggle, into a REACTIVE power;  while it's on, any time your character takes damage, they instantly heal either a tiny flat amount of HP, or a tiny % of their max HP (I'm not sure which is more balanced).  This would be neutral across damage TYPES, but not damage STYLES, obviously:  Against big, single hits, it won't do much (which fits thematically), but against "death by a thousand cuts" attacks or DoTs, it should be excellent against them.....which again, fits for a Regen character being tough against things that work like poisons.

 

Just wanted to bam this out before I forgot. 

Clever out of the box idea. Similar to ones I have seen in other posts.

[srmalloy]

On 4/24/2022 at 4:13 AM, Menelruin said:

Make instant healing a toggle, into a REACTIVE power;  while it's on, any time your character takes damage, they instantly heal either a tiny flat amount of HP, or a tiny % of their max HP (I'm not sure which is more balanced). 

This is something that I first suggested way back on Live, and a couple of times here -- make IH a toggle power that makes incoming damage act similarly to the way Spectral Wounds does: when you take damage, it queues a heal to go off a second or so later that heals an enhanceable fraction of that damage. The heal could either be a straight enhanceable percentage of the damage taken, or a fixed percentage plus an enhanceable percentage. So if you had it slotted to heal 50%, and you took 112 points of damage, you'd take the full 112 points, then a second or so later you'd heal 56 points back.

 

Because it would only heal incoming damage once, it makes it equivalent to other defenses (Resistance absorbing a percentage of incoming damage, and Defense dodging a percentage of incoming damage) making it easier to balance, instead of just healing the same damage over and over again until it's gone.

[Naraka]

So why can't we take your idea (taking damage will cause you to heal for every incoming source of damage)... But just leave it as a powerful click effect that has limited uptime?

[arcane]

Think the consensus from those of us who don’t want to completely depart from the cottage rule is to start with debuff resistances and other modest tweaks. No thank you to making the set have fewer clicks. 

[Menelruin]

49 minutes ago, Naraka said:

So why can't we take your idea (taking damage will cause you to heal for every incoming source of damage)... But just leave it as a powerful click effect that has limited uptime?

Could also work 🤷‍♂️

[Menelruin]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

Think the consensus from those of us who don’t want to completely depart from the cottage rule is to start with debuff resistances and other modest tweaks. No thank you to making the set have fewer clicks. 

Wasn't it ORIGINALLY a toggle, though?  Meaning the current state WAS a departure from Cottage Rule?

[Troo]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

Think the consensus from those of us who don’t want to completely depart from the cottage rule is to start with debuff resistances and other modest tweaks. No thank you to making the set have fewer clicks. 

 

..and it just isn't that many clicks. only Reconstruction is really up super often.

 

@Menelruin I like your idea for maybe another regen like power set. one tweak could be rather than just healing it adds.. I think I'll start another thread to bring it up but you idea is a big component.

[Troo]

3 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

Wasn't it ORIGINALLY a toggle, though?  Meaning the current state WAS a departure from Cottage Rule?

 

yeah, but that was a nerf to attempt to reign it in. it was a big change.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Troo

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

Wasn't it ORIGINALLY a toggle, though?  Meaning the current state WAS a departure from Cottage Rule?

Actually toggle/click change isn’t covered by the cottage rule so it wasn’t correct to invoke that. Let me correct:

 

No thanks to less clicky mitigation because every other armor set in the game has you covered on that and Regen doesn’t need it.

[Doomguide2005]

     What @arcanesaid.

Click/Auto regeneration based mitigation equals Regeneration play style (old school) 

Toggle/Auto based regeneration mitigation equals Willpower (newer) play style.

 

     And yes @Menelruinit started as a toggle power and was silly overpowered at that time.  But it's been in its current click state far, far longer.  The old toggle IH allowed, for example, my pre-IO lvl 42 scrapper to stand toe to toe with two lvl 47 Fake Nemesis Bosses.  Total draw, they couldn't hurt me I couldn't hurt them.  Not long afterwards it was changed.

 

[Rudra]

You mean back when you could 6-slot heal enhancements into it and they would all give full effect because Enforced Diversification... I mean Diminishing Returns... I mean... the improvement of introducing ED made that impossible so IOs needed to be introduced to give back some of the capabilities we lost had not been introduced yet?

 

(Edit again: So IH could be boosted to 300% effectiveness [100% base + 199.98% added).)

Edited April 27, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing ending to question. And again to correct Reduced to Diminishing.

[Doomguide2005]

Memories of which came first ED or toggle becoming a click are vague and distant at best for me  unfortunately, but definitely well before anything Inventions or Redside existed.  No idea if Headsplitter was 1 Acc, 5 Dam at the time.  Just remember how completely dominate my Broadsword/Regen scrapper was compared to my by then already 50 Claws/SR against mobs.  She just crushed anything in Bricks.  About the only thing that slowed her down was Sappers and they were stupidly fatal typically.  Slows/-recharge were not so much debilitating as annoying since they (Ice Thorns etc.) couldn't hurt me but just prevent offense.

[Haijinx]

Nerf

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Menelruin said:

Could also work 🤷‍♂️

 

My only criticism is jumping on the bandwagon to make it a toggle while masking it as "reactive". Unless it was somewhat unique in being a "limited time toggle" similar to Gravity Control's Dimension Shift, it wouldn't be reactive at all, it would be set-and-forget.  That is, you turn the toggle on and you forget about it...put it on a separate tray and then turn to the tray with powers you actually use.

 

On the prospect of it being a limited toggle, you could possibly have it be the "alpha dampener" toggle that only really lasts 30sec before turning off automatically (with an appropriate cooldown) OR make it an infinite toggle but only the first 20 or so sec have the "get hit, pops a heal" and after the 20sec, it's more like a slow "get hit, after the 6th hit pops a heal" or something to incentivize turning the toggle off when you don't actually need it.

 

Overall, I'm not against making IH a toggle, I'm against making everything braindead and samey. 

[Menelruin]

I was just thinking a toggle because right now Regen has a lot of powers without much uptime.  A clicky that you can still keep up a lot could work.  I'm just worried about it ending up "feast or famine."

[Naraka]

9 hours ago, Menelruin said:

I was just thinking a toggle because right now Regen has a lot of powers without much uptime.  A clicky that you can still keep up a lot could work.  I'm just worried about it ending up "feast or famine."

With all the IO bonuses and perma this and perma that, you think there's famine here?

[Menelruin]

6 hours ago, Naraka said:

With all the IO bonuses and perma this and perma that, you think there's famine here?

For that particular set, when the clickies are down, perhaps.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Menelruin

[Naraka]

10 hours ago, Menelruin said:

For that particular set, when the clickies are down, perhaps.

To me, it always feels like nearly everyone is rushing content at full throttle rather than grasping to stay afloat. Even with Regen, I don't feel pressured that I'm left starving but rather bit off more than I could chew and lived. 

 

Are you not using IOs on your Regen? If not, try running a SR without a boat load of pool def or bonuses and see how starved you will feel, or just about any set that isn't Willpower, Bio or Rad. If it isn't starved for mitigation, it's starved for END or starved for sustain.

[srmalloy]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:56 AM, Troo said:

yeah, but that was a nerf to attempt to reign it in. it was a big change.

It should also be pointed out that the nerf, and its magnitude, was an overreaction based on bad data -- the devs, testing on their internal test server, found that a Claws/Regen scrapper could solo +6 spawns for an eight-hero team, a declaration that the players claimed was grossly inflated. The changes to Regen were made and deployed to Live before the devs discovered that their internal test server did not have the 'purple patch' applied, which meant that, in their testing, the Claws/Regen scrapper was hitting about 10x as often for 10x the damage that it should have been, a difference that would have seen the scrapper falling quickly to the first spawn. Despite this admission, the changes to Regen were neither rolled back nor adjusted in light of the bad data used to justify the changes.

[srmalloy]

Despite all the saltiness over the Regen changes, though, there was a general admission that Regen did in fact need to be reeled back some. The hate and discontent that it got was due to it being applied on the basis of bad assumptions and that it felt as if it had been given a 'small tweak' by a blindfolded spastic with a fire Axe.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 5/7/2022 at 5:30 PM, srmalloy said:

It should also be pointed out that the nerf, and its magnitude, was an overreaction based on bad data -- the devs, testing on their internal test server, found that a Claws/Regen scrapper could solo +6 spawns for an eight-hero team, a declaration that the players claimed was grossly inflated. The changes to Regen were made and deployed to Live before the devs discovered that their internal test server did not have the 'purple patch' applied, which meant that, in their testing, the Claws/Regen scrapper was hitting about 10x as often for 10x the damage that it should have been, a difference that would have seen the scrapper falling quickly to the first spawn. Despite this admission, the changes to Regen were neither rolled back nor adjusted in light of the bad data used to justify the changes.

Is there data / a post backing this up?

[srmalloy]

16 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Is there data / a post backing this up?

It was back when Cryptic was still developing the game; Jack Emmert had posted on the forums "small concern=small tweaks, don't worry regeners"; then the changes were announced. I believe that Geko, who was the Powers guy at the time, posted a video from the test server showing a Claws/Regen Scrapper one-shotting +12 mobs as justification for the nerfs; after the community rallied together to show that the numbers the video presented were possible only without the purple patch, his response was "Oooops, you guys are correct"... and then the Regen nerfs rolled out a couple of weeks later, as if we hadn't proved anything. To get the specific posts, it would be necessary to scrape the Wayback archive.

[Force Redux]

Scrapper Goes Unheard

Sentinel  Floats Gray Numbers

Regen is Fickle