Regen and an epic'ed out build

[Sabrehawk]

19 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

If I understand correctly, PvP uses Elusivity instead of +DEF.    That suggest you can change one without changing the other.   Even if you can't, I think they have two sets of rules (evidenced by PvP/PvE enhancements) and PvP can stay the same until they can analyze it and decide if they think it's fair for all sets.  I haven't done any PvP since Live.  The few times I visited the zones on HC...they were entirely empty.  

 

In PvP you use Defense and Elusively both. To the best of my knowledge the formula is: HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × (1 - TargetElusivity) × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) ).

 

Quote

I don't even know what that means.  But I'll bet that the content designers would be happy to see the extreme content no loner getting solo'd and instead force 8 players to actually work as a team.   Maybe it would be "earth shattering" if a Tanker actually needed a Defender's support.

 

I wanted to focus on this, as I don't have a lot of spare time at the moment and I feel this probably best illustrates what I am trying to say.

 

 

But first, I can see that the thread is getting a bit heated. I don't want to contribute to that. I don't think is necessary for one, and for two, I think you've raised some good points elsewhere. For example, I strongly agree with you that /SR (on Scrappers and Stalkers) is an underperforming set. Perhaps for different reasons; I feel like the wheels fall off /SR when it's faced with real challenges, like 801 and the like, but I feel you raised an excellent and counterintuitive point. Perhaps most importantly to me you raised an interesting point.

 

Now to my point. 

 

You were responding to this by me:

 

Quote

The magnitude of impact of this change on content does not scale linearly with the type of content.

 

Let me try and explain what I mean.

 

Imagine that we have an X axis and a Y axis. X represents the build. As we move across the X axis all possible builds are represented. The Y axis represents the content being run. As we move up the Y axis we move across all combat content in the game, from the tutorial to every story mission the ITF, the ITF solo, 801s, all types of PvP and so on.

 

We could then move across the X axis to any possible build and move up or down the Y axis to see that build in action against any piece of content whatsoever. If we went into the code of the game and changed one variable we could then see the impact of that change upon every single possible build and every piece of content.

 

Let's say we went into the code and added one (1) damage to every attack. The game calculates your damage as normal, then adds a single point of damage on the end. Then we go back and scroll across every single possible build matched up with every single piece of combat content. Not all builds are effected equally but by and large the effect has been both small and most builds have seen their combat performance altered by similar magnitudes. 

 

Now lets say we change the hit calculations so that every attack has a minimum of 10% chance to hit rather than the 5% that we have now. Then we go back and take a look at how all possible builds are effected by this change in all possible content.

 

What we find is the magnitude of impact varies highly between the build in question and the type of content.

 

For example, very few builds would be effected by this change during the early levels. The beginning of the game would be largely the same. But as the difficulty of the content became more extreme so too would the distance between pre-change performance between the same build in the same situation and post-change performance between the same build in the same situation. But this change would not impact all builds equally.

 

ScarySai has posted a Rad/SS Tanker build in the Trapdoor thread which produced some stunning times. Mids tells me the build has 21% S/L and 29% melee defense. This is an extremely high performing build and it's wouldn't be effected by these changes very much at all. When I take a look at one of BZB's Claws/SR Scrapper builds, Mids tells me it has 50% melee, 44% ranged and 49% AoE. This build would be strongly effected.

 

The more a build depends on defense the greater the magnitude of the impact of this change. The more difficult the content the greater the magnitude of the impact of the change. The impact of the change does not scale evenly with level, across types of builds or across content. Some builds would be virtually unaffected as would some content. Other builds, and other content, would see a night and day difference. 

 

[Myrmidon]

Making Regeneration playable: erase Regen characters and auto-grant those players a level equivalent Willpower character.

[Myrmidon]

@Brutal Justice, you have been nerf herding for some while now and you really should quit wasting your time. Had City Of not been tossed aside by Cryptic, there would be plenty of challenging content to test your might (and survivability) against. The Dev team has a content department and they will eventually give you the challenge that you seek, all it takes is a little patience.

[Myrmidon]

On 5/5/2022 at 4:06 PM, Troo said:

(regen on a stalker is superior to willpower)

  
I enjoy allowing people to keep their illusions.🤣

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Not exactly.  /SR's problem is that it needs other forms of mitigation.  The scaling resists tend to fail in the same situation when /SR's +DEF fails.   When I made my thread asking the Dev's to look into it, I finally got people to at least admit, indirectly, that /SR has problems when you aren't capping +DEF.   Specifically people conceded the mid-game is a prolem because  encounters start hitting you with more AoE in the 30's.  But by the 40's, people (especially those who are on these forums) have started completing their builds and /SR's problems are masked.  The virtues of soft capping easily overcompensatesfor /SR's inherent issues.

 

You shouldn't believe me.  You should asks the devs to run the numbers and see where and when /SR falls behind and if it's enough to warrant fixes.  Maybe it still performs within their internal goalposts.  I don't know.  And I certainly can't offer any proof  that I'm right.

 

That's false.  But more importantly, you're subscribing to a fallacy.  That being that whatever marginal increase that might happen at lvl 50, outweighs the benefit of /SR being middle of the pack.  That fallacy includes an assumption that the level 50 improvement would be substantive.  You have no way to understand the degree that any non +DEF change made to /SR would impact lvl 50.  Let me repeat that for emphasis.  You have no idea what the impact would be to lvl 50 if, for example, Practiced Brawler provided an incombat Endo boost, or an out of combat boost to +Regen.   And I'm betting we could add those changes to lvl 50 an 93% of the player base wouldn't even notice it, with that number rising to 99.9% for people who didn't have the attribute monitor open to those stats. 

 

The problem with your statement here, and many like them, is you don't actually understand the nature of the problem.  And I'm not saying I know it all either, I definitely do not.   But many of your statements are fundamentally incorrect.  I know that comes across as incendiary and arguably asinine, but this line of discussion gets old.  Instead of actually trying to understand the problem, you're looking for a way to misrepresent things I've said to try and "win" the debate. I never said only the "mid-game" is the problem, but don't let the truth interrupt your narrative.

If you think SR needs a buff in the end game I have no qualms just assuming you suck at SR. You really only had an argument with this mid-game stuff, but since you obviously think it needs a buff at 50 as well, I unfortunately cannot consider you credible 😕 Sorry

[Bill Z Bubba]

28 minutes ago, arcane said:

If you think SR needs a buff in the end game I have no qualms just assuming you suck at SR. You really only had an argument with this mid-game stuff, but since you obviously think it needs a buff at 50 as well, I unfortunately cannot consider you credible 😕 Sorry

 

Now now, Arcane, a +4 Battle Maiden was able to kill my main claws/sr scrapper when I was refusing to use inspirations.

 

Let's see now... lvl 54 AV, only really +3 since I have alpha slotted, 5% chance to hit becomes (5*1.3*1.5) 9.75% chance to hit. Noope, her sword has a 1.2 base accuracy, so 11.7% chance to hit for (checks CoD) 1823 pts of damage with Disembowel. Hack does 1526, Slash 930 and Slice 1144.

 

Bill sits at 2033 HP. Let's say I was around 30% health when she got lucky and double tapped my face with Disembowel and Hack. Would have had around 66% SL resist at 610 HP. (No, tough NEVER helps SR!!! (rolls eyes heavily.)) (1823+1526)*.34 = 1139 damage against 610 HP... yup, that's death.

 

Course, all I had to do was eat a green or back up out of melee range for a few, but c'mon, a level 54 AV was able to kill me! OBVIOUSLY, SR needs a buff.

 

In case it isn't obvious, /sarcasmoff.

[Myrmidon]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:45 AM, Blackjoy said:

4x8 is meant to be an extreme challenge for a team of 8, not a mild exercise for a single toon.   It's funny that no one can even acknowledge that a little...well, there's one person who has talked about

 

 Now we’re two.

[Gamlain]

2 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

4x8 is meant to be an extreme challenge for a team of 8, not a mild exercise for a single toon.   It's funny that no one can even acknowledge that a little...well, there's one person who has talked about

Aaah...no. I was there when the difficulty options were created and when it was later updated. This is explicitly not true.  +4x8 being soloable content for builds that can handle it was always working as intended.

 

[kelika2]

did posi with it the other day, think i retained a solid 90% rech even exemped down to 15.  perma enough hasten and not bad

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Now now, Arcane, a +4 Battle Maiden was able to kill my main claws/sr scrapper when I was refusing to use inspirations.

 

Let's see now... lvl 54 AV, only really +3 since I have alpha slotted, 5% chance to hit becomes (5*1.3*1.5) 9.75% chance to hit. Noope, her sword has a 1.2 base accuracy, so 11.7% chance to hit for (checks CoD) 1823 pts of damage with Disembowel. Hack does 1526, Slash 930 and Slice 1144.

 

Bill sits at 2033 HP. Let's say I was around 30% health when she got lucky and double tapped my face with Disembowel and Hack. Would have had around 66% SL resist at 610 HP. (No, tough NEVER helps SR!!! (rolls eyes heavily.)) (1823+1526)*.34 = 1139 damage against 610 HP... yup, that's death.

 

Course, all I had to do was eat a green or back up out of melee range for a few, but c'mon, a level 54 AV was able to kill me! OBVIOUSLY, SR needs a buff.

 

In case it isn't obvious, /sarcasmoff.

 

Had to do a followup (no pun intended) on this. Took BZB tank into the same AE mish, found Battle Maiden, stuck followup on auto with its +resist tank AT IO, and he was 100% immortal. The LOWEST she got him was around 40% health. No incarnates, hell, not even PB was in use so she was knocking him down regularly, but he was NEVER in any danger of defeat. On the other hand, when I got bored proving his immortality, I set hasten back on auto, hit hybrid assault radial, dropped my carnie radial lore pets and went to town. Still took 12 minutes to take her down. Using insps to stay alive, BZB scrap would have killed her much faster.

 

I guess I do need to build that nrg/shield scrapper and brute after all.

 

Regardless, does SR need a buff? Nope.

[Blackjoy]

On 7/5/2022 at 4:06 PM, Blackjoy said:

The fact that /SR is arguably overpowered at lvl 50 because of the bias of +DEF is no more correct than it being painful at lvl 30. 

 

15 hours ago, arcane said:

If you think SR needs a buff in the end game I have no qualms just assuming you suck at SR. You really only had an argument with this mid-game stuff, but since you obviously think it needs a buff at 50 as well, I unfortunately cannot consider you credible 😕 Sorry

So it's clear you are just trolling my /SR discussion...agian.  I generally don't like to use that term (and have already used it once in this thread, much to my disdain), because it's kind of lazy and arguably vulgar, but when you blatantly ignore statements that contradict your narrative and attempt to try maneuver a win, I am not sure there is a more succinct or appropriate term.  

 

You, and several others, used the same tactic in the /SR thread, and continue to use it here.  I figured you were up to the same thing here, but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and see if you actually were trying to have a discussion this time around. Nope.  By all means arcane, carry on.

 

It's odd that there is a small minority of players who get emotionally charged at the idea that /SR, naked, is probably dead last.    I attribute that to a flat-out inability to separate a build at lvl 50 from a set from levels 1-49 (really the DEF capping probably starts around 40 for /SR). Or as Brutal Justice seemingly suggests , it's just intellectual dishonesty, for what purpose, I cannot fathom.

 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

So it's clear you are just trolling my /SR discussion...agian.

 

Where trolling = proving unequivocally how wrong your are.

 

10 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

It's odd that there is a small minority of players who get emotionally charged at the idea that /SR, naked, is probably dead last.

 

It's not odd at all. People that think balancing a powerset around its complete lack of use of pool powers is a complete moron. Nobody that builds characters worth a damn in this game ignore power pools. Only complete imbeciles would ever think that's how folks should play.

 

Edit: Someone should probably quote this post so that they see it since they've ignored me.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Blackjoy]

22 hours ago, Sabrehawk said:

The more a build depends on defense the greater the magnitude of the impact of this change. The more difficult the content the greater the magnitude of the impact of the change. The impact of the change does not scale evenly with level, across types of builds or across content. Some builds would be virtually unaffected as would some content. Other builds, and other content, would see a night and day difference. 

Absolutely.   Hence my comment that 99% of the /Regen builds would probably not be affected, nor would anyone below lvl 40 probably even notice.  It's also the reason I zeroed in on raising the To Hit floor because it would specifically reign in +DEF builds that were based on flooring to hit at 5%.   Without changing the sets or the power pools...one iota.

 

As I see it, the reason to do something like this would be:

 

1) You'd open up the build options.  If taking just Combat Jumping or Hover capped  your benefit from +DEF, then you'd be able to choose a lot of other options.  Right now, EVERY SINGLE SCRAPPER at level 50 has the  Tough and Weave.   Well, not every single one.  But it's north of 90% based on my anecdotal evidence. 

 

2)  You'd level the playing field for all the builds that don't have a strong +DEF base.  And that would by extension make /Regen look better.

 

3) You'd most likely encourage more cooperative team play.

 

Of course, I'm not advocating the devs do this.  I think that the lvl 50 game is intended to be largely unregulated, so if some builds are out on the upper end of the bell curve, so what.   I'm not motivated by any desire to nerf lvl 50.   It just becomes apparent that doing so might address some of the imbalances people talk about now.   It might also create new ones, but since I'm not advocating this, it's not really worth my time trying to figure it out.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Blackjoy]

5 hours ago, Gamlain said:

Aaah...no. I was there when the difficulty options were created and when it was later updated. This is explicitly not true.  +4x8 being soloable content for builds that can handle it was always working as intended.

 

I was there too.  And I don't recall any "explicit" statements as such.  What I do recall is that the devs essentially considered lvl 50 a free-for-all.  So I think you're conflating the fact that the devs specifically chose not to try and balance lvl 50 with the devs being fine with a lvl 30 toon soloing 4x8.    They weren't.  And we know this because they nerfed /Regen from god-like with Toggle IH down to solid.    If what you said was true, then they wouldn't have cared what /Regen was doing. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

 It's also the reason I zeroed in on raising the To Hit floor because it would specifically cripple +DEF builds that were based on flooring to hit at 5%.

 

To be coupled with his SR under-performs statements because nerfing SR will benefit it!

 

/twitch-twitch

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

I was there too.  And I don't recall any "explicit" statements as such.  What I do recall is that the devs essentially considered lvl 50 a free-for-all.  So I think you're conflating the fact that the devs specifically chose not to try and balance lvl 50 with the devs being fine with a lvl 30 toon soloing 4x8.    They weren't.  And we know this because they nerfed /Regen from god-like with Toggle IH down to solid.    If what you said was true, then they wouldn't have cared what /Regen was doing. 

 

Regen is "solid" but SR "under-performs." There is a very distinct disconnect from observable reality going on here.

[Myrmidon]

42 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Where trolling = proving unequivocally how wrong your are.

 

 

It's not odd at all. People that think balancing a powerset around its complete lack of use of pool powers is a complete moron. Nobody that builds characters worth a damn in this game ignore power pools. Only complete imbeciles would ever think that's how folks should play.

 

Edit: Someone should probably quote this post so that they see it since they've ignored me.

 

Ill quote you, Bill, just so that the ignore monkey sees it.😉

[Errants]

46 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

1) You'd open up the build options.  If taking just Combat Jumping or Hover capped  your benefit from +DEF, then you'd be able to choose a lot of other options.  Right now, EVERY SINGLE SCRAPPER at level 50 has the  Tough and Weave.   Well, not every single one.  But it's north of 90% based on my anecdotal evidence. 

 

No, the min/maxers would find some new optimal edge... it would percolate out to the masses, and then eventually become common knowledge.

Much the same on how Fighting became a common choice, and Def-capping became common.

Players who don't take the optimal powers to max the power of a toon's build do so for two(three) reasons:
1) They don't know any better, yet. They've never learned the benefits of the mechanically superior choice, they refuse to do so due to being convinced they have a better option, or they're leery of the outlier performance and future adjustments - This is me, with regards to proc-fu builds - I haven't expended the effort to learn how to min/max procs, and I definitely anticipate their adjustment... I don't play enough to want to rebuild my stable of toons to deal with that.
2) They are intentionally challenging the build, for fun/concept/challenge reasons - This is the Pool toons, the RP toons, the SO/common only toons, etc.
3) They don't care. This is a game, and they don't want to be bothered with building a character, they just want to play. This is the folks who play City of Dress-up, run content with empty slots/expired enhancements, etc...

None of these choices are invalid, since this is a game, and you're supposed to find your fun. All of them are sub-optimal. Many are still viable despite that.

It doesn't change the fact that there WILL be powers/pools/slotting that is the "best" possible for a given AT/Pri/Sec. And removing one won't create diversity (Read: Enhancement Diversification, writ yet again), it'll just make a new "best" option.

[Apparition]

This is a large thread that I haven’t read through yet.  Let’s see what’s going… on…

 

 

[Stormwalker]

3 hours ago, Errants said:

 

No, the min/maxers would find some new optimal edge... it would percolate out to the masses, and then eventually become common knowledge.

Much the same on how Fighting became a common choice, and Def-capping became common.

Players who don't take the optimal powers to max the power of a toon's build do so for two(three) reasons:
1) They don't know any better, yet. They've never learned the benefits of the mechanically superior choice, they refuse to do so due to being convinced they have a better option, or they're leery of the outlier performance and future adjustments - This is me, with regards to proc-fu builds - I haven't expended the effort to learn how to min/max procs, and I definitely anticipate their adjustment... I don't play enough to want to rebuild my stable of toons to deal with that.
2) They are intentionally challenging the build, for fun/concept/challenge reasons - This is the Pool toons, the RP toons, the SO/common only toons, etc.
3) They don't care. This is a game, and they don't want to be bothered with building a character, they just want to play. This is the folks who play City of Dress-up, run content with empty slots/expired enhancements, etc...

None of these choices are invalid, since this is a game, and you're supposed to find your fun. All of them are sub-optimal. Many are still viable despite that.

It doesn't change the fact that there WILL be powers/pools/slotting that is the "best" possible for a given AT/Pri/Sec. And removing one won't create diversity (Read: Enhancement Diversification, writ yet again), it'll just make a new "best" option.

 

First, you're exactly right.

 

Second, I'm not going to immerse myself in the argument again, but II am going to make a quick observation about why certain pool powers are taken.

 

You can already soft-cap defense on an /SR with just Combat Jumping and IO's.  You don't actually need Weave!

 

People take Weave, not because they have to take it to soft-cap, but because it's easier to soft-cap with Weave, and allows more flexibility elsewhere in the build.  And they also take it because as an /SR you have to take Tough anyway or else you have nowhere to slot the resistance set uniques (which are far too good to pass up on), because you have no resistance powers in your armor set, so you're already invested in the Fighting Pool anyway (never mind that any shred of damage resistance you get get is always useful to a scrapper!).  Once you've taken Boxing or Kick and Tough, you might as well go ahead and take Weave while you're at it!  And then they also take it because the Fighting Pool happens to be really in-concept for people who spend all their time in melee!  Which most of the other power pools... are not.

 

None of which is going to change even if you raise the accuracy floor.

 

If you magically took away the Fighting pool from me, I honestly don't know what powers I would take to replace it on several of my scrappers.  There aren't any other options that are in-concept for them.  In fact, I was just commenting a couple of days ago in another thread that even WITH the fighting pool, I was having a hard time finding powers for my DB/SR to take to fill out her last slots, because nothing that was available was in-concept except for Focused Accuracy, which I didn't want to take (and ended up taking anwyay, and just sticking a single end-redux in it, because I couldn't find any better options)!

 

If the accuracy floor was raised, so that the soft-cap sat at 40%?  I would still take the Fighting Pool.  Because 1) it's in concept for my characters, and 2). what the hell else am I going to take?  

 

Power pools consist of several types of powers:

• Offense (mostly useless to a scrapper because pool attacks are almost universally inferior to scrapper primary attacks)
• Mitigation (the thing a scrapper generally needs most, since we aren't Tankers and aren't that tough out of the box)
• Support (largely useless to a scrapper, since most scrappers solo 95% of the time)
• Travel (which almost everyone takes already unless their concept disallows it)
• Utility (i.e. stealth, combat teleport, etc., which is largely a "take this if it interests you and fits in your concept" sort of thing).

Given this, what are most scrappers going to take?   A travel power, maybe a little utility if they want it... and mitigation.  This is the pool system working as intended.

 

If you want to see more diversity in pool power selection among scrappers, create more pool powers that are useful to scrappers.   Nerfing defense is not going to accomplish this.

 

EDIT: Something I realized I should add:  this is partly a side-effect of Inherent Fitness.  Whether or not to take the Fighting Pool was a considerably more difficult decision back when you had to cram Swift (or Hurdle if you were going SJ), Health, and Stamina into your build somewhere.  But now we have lots of power picks open for pool powers, and not all that many pool powers that are actually useful for a Scrapper and fit well with Scrapper concepts.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Stormwalker
corrected typo

[arcane]

10 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

 

So it's clear you are just trolling my /SR discussion...agian.  I generally don't like to use that term (and have already used it once in this thread, much to my disdain), because it's kind of lazy and arguably vulgar, but when you blatantly ignore statements that contradict your narrative and attempt to try maneuver a win, I am not sure there is a more succinct or appropriate term.  

 

You, and several others, used the same tactic in the /SR thread, and continue to use it here.  I figured you were up to the same thing here, but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and see if you actually were trying to have a discussion this time around. Nope.  By all means arcane, carry on.

 

It's odd that there is a small minority of players who get emotionally charged at the idea that /SR, naked, is probably dead last.    I attribute that to a flat-out inability to separate a build at lvl 50 from a set from levels 1-49 (really the DEF capping probably starts around 40 for /SR). Or as Brutal Justice seemingly suggests , it's just intellectual dishonesty, for what purpose, I cannot fathom.

 

 

 

I have 4 SR characters and your assessment of the set is the polar opposite of my observed reality. Why do you expect me to validate you when you are essentially telling me the sky is red, from my perspective. Is it possible you are playing SR badly, or are we just going to go straight to everyone who says SR is good is a liar?

[Haijinx]

19 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

 Now we’re two.

 

If this is the criteria, how can SR even be considered here?  Once you have a mid-priced softcapped build you can walk over almost everything (level 35, or exemp 30+)  but AVs 

 

And most AVs aren't really that scary.  

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

If the accuracy floor was raised, so that the soft-cap sat at 40%?  I would still take the Fighting Pool.  Because 1) it's in concept for my characters, and 2). what the hell else am I going to take?  

 

 

I've never made a character that didn't have the fighting pool by level 50.  

[Gobbledygook]

You know, this was a thoughtful discussion about Regen, until certain someones start trying to get SR nerfed.

Let's try to stay on topic here, so this thread doesn't get locked.

If you want to get a set nerfed, go start your own damned thread.

[Haijinx]

23 minutes ago, Gobbledygook said:

You know, this was a thoughtful discussion about Regen, until certain someones start trying to get SR nerfed.

Let's try to stay on topic here, so this thread doesn't get locked.

If you want to get a set nerfed, go start your own damned thread.

 

I wonder if its because SR and Regen are from the same Original Era?  

 

And the SR tweeks over the years have made it better.  While Regen has just resulted in Regen? I am still convinced they had completely fixed Regen, but named it Willpower to avoid the fire storm.  

 

But as you say.  SR is fine, and if its not fine probably needs it own thread.