Universal Damage - Overwhelming Force - Questions

[Techwright]

I'm working with a 50 seismic blast corruptor and am considering adding Overwhelming Force to his 6-slotted Meteor power.  I notice the last of the six enhancements reads like this:

 

The wording has me a tad confused.

 

1. So would slotting this be every bit as effective as slotting Sudden Acceleration:  Knockback to Knockdown?  I love Meteor, but am not fond of how potent the knockback is.  Sudden Acceleration:  Knockback to Knockdown has given me 100% knockdown, and that's exactly what I'm after.  I'm guessing what the Overwhelming Force enhancement is saying is that it will convert 100% of any knockback to knockdown, and give a 20% chance to knockdown on top of that.  Does that sound correct?

 

2. Those who've utilized this enhancement, what is "this enhancement also has a penchant for the dramatic..." implying?

 

I didn't file this thread under "Corruptors" because this really is about the Universal Damage set and its implications.  I'm just referencing in context of the current character.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Techwright

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Techwright said:

I'm guessing what the Overwhelming Force enhancement is saying is that it will convert 100% of any knockback to knockdown, and give a 20% chance to knockdown on top of that.  Does that sound correct?

 

Yes.

 

1 minute ago, Techwright said:

2. Those who've utilized this enhancement, what is "this enhancement also has a penchant for the dramatic..." implying?

 

It doesn't convert Repel to KD, so in powers like Singularity, it "doesn't work" (it does work, but it doesn't work on that effect).  And if you slot it in a KB or KD power, the KD can stack and become KB, which is not converted to KD, so critters "squirt" (no, not like that (well, maybe, but it's none of our business)) out of AoEs/cones.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Hmm, the text says 20% chance of activation (and that's what I've always assumed), but in CoD it listes it as a 2.5 PPM proc.  Summoning @Bopper, my patron saint!

[Snarky]

It is not as good as Sudden Acceleration Knockback to Knockdown.  It just does not work as well.

 

If you are 6 slotting this set and really love those bonuses (whyyyyyy???) then I guess do it.  I softcap Ranged defense on squishies all the time without the need to use this set.

[Techwright]

4 minutes ago, Snarky said:

It is not as good as Sudden Acceleration Knockback to Knockdown.  It just does not work as well.

 

If you are 6 slotting this set and really love those bonuses (whyyyyyy???) then I guess do it.  I softcap Ranged defense on squishies all the time without the need to use this set.

The Mag 4 Knockback protection at 6-slot.  The 3% damage buff (all) isn't too shabby, either.  Thanks for the feedback.  Good to know.

[Bopper]

30 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Hmm, the text says 20% chance of activation (and that's what I've always assumed), but in CoD it listes it as a 2.5 PPM proc.  Summoning @Bopper, my patron saint!

In CoD We Trust

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

In CoD We Trust

 

Wow, that is disappointing (not trusting in CoD, but that the text description is so terribly wrong)!  That changes everything!

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Wow, that is disappointing (not trusting in CoD, but that the text description is so terribly wrong)!  That changes everything!

Not the first time a description has been wrong. Check out Sentinel's Ward (says 5 PPM when it's really 2 PPM)

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

I'm working with a 50 seismic blast corruptor and am considering adding Overwhelming Force to his 6-slotted Meteor power.  I notice the last of the six enhancements reads like this:

 

The wording has me a tad confused.

 

1. So would slotting this be every bit as effective as slotting Sudden Acceleration:  Knockback to Knockdown?  I love Meteor, but am not fond of how potent the knockback is.  Sudden Acceleration:  Knockback to Knockdown has given me 100% knockdown, and that's exactly what I'm after.  I'm guessing what the Overwhelming Force enhancement is saying is that it will convert 100% of any knockback to knockdown, and give a 20% chance to knockdown on top of that.  Does that sound correct?

 

2. Those who've utilized this enhancement, what is "this enhancement also has a penchant for the dramatic..." implying?

 

I didn't file this thread under "Corruptors" because this really is about the Universal Damage set and its implications.  I'm just referencing in context of the current character.

 

Let me take a stab at this.

 

Knockback and knockdown are the same mechanic.  If the magnitude of the KB (I use that term to describe both knockback and knockdown) is > 0.75, then it counts as knockback, and the higher the number the farther things get knocked back.  If it is < 0.75 then it counts as knockdown, and the target doesn't move.  Generally, most players prefer knockdown, since then they or their team don't have to chase stragglers.

 

The mechanics of both this proc and the SA proc is that when it calculates the KB magnitude, it modifies any existing KB so it is less than the 0.75 limit.  I'm not entirely sure exactly how, since I can't define the variables in CoD, but it seems to work effectively enough that I've never seen knock back occur when either of these are slotted.  (Note:  some enemies, clockwork particularly, seem to use the reverse dynamic so that knock down increases in magnitude to over 0.75 and they get knocked back.)  Contrast this to a situation where you have two sub-0.75 mag effects and they both trigger (like a Kinetic Combat proc in Kick).  In that case the magnitude is additive and even though each individual effect is under 0.75, when they both trigger it is over 0.75.

 

Now, there is also an additional chance for knockdown with the OF proc, which I now know is 2.5PPM to activate, and not a flat 20% chance.  Because of the first diminishing effect, you can have two knockdown procs trigger and it not additive.  So the OF proc and the Avalanche proc can both trigger and result in a "double" knock down where they flop twice.

 

It's a wonderfully amusing proc, and now that I know how it works I'm going to have to change a lot of my slotting choices.

 

If I am incorrect on any of this, please correct me!

 

 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Let me take a stab at this.

 

Knockback and knockdown are the same mechanic.  If the magnitude of the KB (I use that term to describe both knockback and knockdown) is > 0.75, then it counts as knockback, and the higher the number the farther things get knocked back.  If it is < 0.75 then it counts as knockdown, and the target doesn't move.  Generally, most players prefer knockdown, since then they or their team don't have to chase stragglers.

 

The mechanics of both this proc and the SA proc is that when it calculates the KB magnitude, it modifies any existing KB so it is less than the 0.75 limit.  I'm not entirely sure exactly how, since I can't define the variables in CoD, but it seems to work effectively enough that I've never seen knock back occur when either of these are slotted.  (Note:  some enemies, clockwork particularly, seem to use the reverse dynamic so that knock down increases in magnitude to over 0.75 and they get knocked back.)  Contrast this to a situation where you have two sub-0.75 mag effects and they both trigger (like a Kinetic Combat proc in Kick).  In that case the magnitude is additive and even though each individual effect is under 0.75, when they both trigger it is over 0.75.

 

Now, there is also an additional chance for knockdown with the OF proc, which I now know is 2.5PPM to activate, and not a flat 20% chance.  Because of the first diminishing effect, you can have two knockdown procs trigger and it not additive.  So the OF proc and the Avalanche proc can both trigger and result in a "double" knock down where they flop twice.

 

It's a wonderfully amusing proc, and now that I know how it works I'm going to have to change a lot of my slotting choices.

 

If I am incorrect on any of this, please correct me!

 

 

 

I just wanted to correct the part highlighted. The mechanic isn't an actual conversion, it is a self debuff. Overwhelming Force gives you a -1000% strength debuff to all your knock effects. However, the minimum your knock strength can be reduced to is 1%, so we can effectively assume your knock magnitude gets floored to this 1% strength.

 

So what does this mean with stacking of the 0.67 KB proc? Assuming 0.75 KB is the point where knockdown becomes knockback (I think this is true, but I don't recall), you are allowed up to 0.08 more knock before the proc causes you to knockback a target. This means as long as the original power does not do 8+ magnitude knock, you should be safe. This will vary with purple patch, so keep that in mind as well.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Bopper

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

The Mag 4 Knockback protection at 6-slot.  The 3% damage buff (all) isn't too shabby, either.  Thanks for the feedback.  Good to know.

You can easily slot a 4 pt KB prot in almkst any travel power.  A Corruptor really just needs 4 pts.  3% damage is better than having yoir toe explode, but it is nothing to change a build to get.  You should really have a (in my opinion) Winter set, Purple set, or Superior Corruptor AT set in a big power.  5 slot the purple or winter and drop in a sudden accel maybe?

[Yomo Kimyata]

I don't think I would ever 6-slot it, but I have 3-slotted it a few times.  The beauty of the proc is twofold:  it does everything the SA proc does plus it adds damage and additional chance of knockdown; and it adds a knockdown (and damage) element to every single power that slots damage.

 

There are some really fun and interesting ways to use this proc (and I try to fit it in on every build).  I'm not just saying that because I'm trying to unload several thousand of them on the /AH.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 5/8/2022 at 8:35 PM, Bopper said:

 

I just wanted to correct the part highlighted. The mechanic isn't an actual conversion, it is a self debuff. Overwhelming Force gives you a -1000% strength debuff to all your knock effects. However, the minimum your knock strength can be reduced to is 1%, so we can effectively assume your knock magnitude gets floored to this 1% strength.

 

So what does this mean with stacking of the 0.67 KB proc? Assuming 0.75 KB is the point where knockdown becomes knockback (I think this is true, but I don't recall), you are allowed up to 0.08 more knock before the proc causes you to knockback a target. This means as long as the original power does not do 8+ magnitude knock, you should be safe. This will vary with purple patch, so keep that in mind as well.

 

I'm not sure that I'm following, or exactly how the debuff works.  Let me talk this out.

 

I'm playing around with Lightning Clap on a scrapper (+4.154 magnitude, so knock back).  Naturally, I put a SA KB to KD in it, and it works like a charm (it doesn't take the OF proc, since there is no inherent damage in the power).  Next, I add a Stupefy proc (3.5PPM, +6 magnitude).  When it triggers, those opponents get knocked back while the rest get knocked down.  That's a total of mag 10.154 from both the original power and the proc.  I'm guessing that -1000% debuff doesn't give you an effective strength of 10.154 - (10 * 10.154) = -90+, but debuffs by 90% to give you an effective mag of 1.0154 and therefore knock back?  The order of the slotted enhancements doesn't seem to matter.

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I'm not sure that I'm following, or exactly how the debuff works.  Let me talk this out.

 

I'm playing around with Lightning Clap on a scrapper (+4.154 magnitude, so knock back).  Naturally, I put a SA KB to KD in it, and it works like a charm (it doesn't take the OF proc, since there is no inherent damage in the power).  Next, I add a Stupefy proc (3.5PPM, +6 magnitude).  When it triggers, those opponents get knocked back while the rest get knocked down.  That's a total of mag 10.154 from both the original power and the proc.  I'm guessing that -1000% debuff doesn't give you an effective strength of 10.154 - (10 * 10.154) = -90+, but debuffs by 90% to give you an effective mag of 1.0154 and therefore knock back?  The order of the slotted enhancements doesn't seem to matter.

The stupefy proc is flagged to ignore strength, so the -1000% KB strength does nothing to it.

 

What you'll experience is your KB strength getting floored to 1% (this is the lowest your strength can go for KB per the AT attributes table). So the 4.154 KB from Lightning Clap gets reduced to 0.04154 KB, which will do knockdown.

 

The 6 KB is unchanged. So when it procs you do a total of 6.04154 KB since the two effects will fire at the same time.

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I'm not sure that I'm following, or exactly how the debuff works.  Let me talk this out.

 

I'm playing around with Lightning Clap on a scrapper (+4.154 magnitude, so knock back).  Naturally, I put a SA KB to KD in it, and it works like a charm (it doesn't take the OF proc, since there is no inherent damage in the power).  Next, I add a Stupefy proc (3.5PPM, +6 magnitude).  When it triggers, those opponents get knocked back while the rest get knocked down.  That's a total of mag 10.154 from both the original power and the proc.  I'm guessing that -1000% debuff doesn't give you an effective strength of 10.154 - (10 * 10.154) = -90+, but debuffs by 90% to give you an effective mag of 1.0154 and therefore knock back?  The order of the slotted enhancements doesn't seem to matter.

the order of PROCs does matter.  THey fire from right to left

[Yomo Kimyata]

24 minutes ago, Bopper said:

The stupefy proc is flagged to ignore strength, so the -1000% KB strength does nothing to it.

 

What you'll experience is your KB strength getting floored to 1% (this is the lowest your strength can go for KB per the AT attributes table). So the 4.154 KB from Lightning Clap gets reduced to 0.04154 KB, which will do knockdown.

 

The 6 KB is unchanged. So when it procs you do a total of 6.04154 KB since the two effects will fire at the same time.

 

Hmm.  How does that explain this then:  I've got another character with Atom Smasher that slots the Stupefy KB proc and the OF proc (cannot slot the SA since the power has no inherent KB).  If you are correct, then this should result in KB whenever the Stupefy triggers?  But it doesn't; it knocks down.  Is the OF effect different from the SA effect?

 

EDIT:  It occasionally knocks back.  I'd estimate statistically that's about the chances of both procs triggering at once.  

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Yomo Kimyata

[Luminara]

18 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Is the OF effect different from the SA effect?

 

Overwhelming Force: (-10 * Melee_Ones (1.00 at all levels for all archetypes))%, so -1000%.

 

Sudden Acceleration: (-10 * Melee_Boosts_60 (0.764 at level 50 (level variable modifier) for all archetypes))%, -764%.

 

Overwhelming Force has a Null for 10.25s entry with the ReduceifKD flag.  Sudden Acceleration does not.

 

Yes, there are differences.

 

Additional data: Overwhelming Force's KB is flagged with "Does not scale with enemy level".  Stupefy's KB proc is not.

[Bopper]

On 5/8/2022 at 5:35 PM, Bopper said:

So what does this mean with stacking of the 0.67 KB proc? Assuming 0.75 KB is the point where knockdown becomes knockback (I think this is true, but I don't recall), you are allowed up to 0.08 more knock before the proc causes you to knockback a target. This means as long as the original power does not do 8+ magnitude knock, you should be safe. This will vary with purple patch, so keep that in mind as well.

@Yomo Kimyata

 

I feel the need to correct my above statement. I just looked up the Overwhelming Force proc in City of Data and I noticed for the first time that it does in fact use the new Knock Vector system. If I understand the system correctly, it means the downward knock of the proc would not add up with the weakened knockback of your power. So in your example about Lightning Clap, the OF enhancement would reduce its 4.154 KB into 0.04154 KB, then the OF proc would do 0.67 KD on top of it. I would imagine you would be nowhere near the 0.75 KB threshold of turning your KD into KB. If you are seeing something other than this, let me know. But I suspect if you slot the OF proc into ANY knockback power you should not fear having the OF proc stacking up and causing knockback.

[Marshal_General]

So does all of this mean the OF IO is the same as the SA IO for KB>KD purposes?

[Shred Monkey]

I have overwhelming force slotted in meteor on my blaster.  It turns the power into a nice clean knockdown 100% of the time.... And note that without this IO it scatters spawns a comically ridiculous distance in all directions.

[ForeverLaxx]

On 5/8/2022 at 5:27 PM, Snarky said:

It is not as good as Sudden Acceleration Knockback to Knockdown.  It just does not work as well.

Since you can only slot one Overwhelming Force anyway, I tend to use it for powers that are meant to be damage powers but deal radial knockback centered on the detonation point. It lets me "save" a slot in things like Explosive Blast, Meteor, Explosive Arrow, etc.

 

That's really the only use I can justify it for, though. If all you care about is fixing knockback and spending a whole slot just for that purpose, go with the Sudden Acceleration one since it's not limited to one slotted per character.