Melee Archetypes - Same sets, different performance?

[KnaveOfSwords]

So, with propagation, the four melee archetypes (Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, Tanker) all share most of the same primary and secondary power sets.  However, at least some of them got tweaks to fit the different ATs.  So, are there any sets that stand out as giving especially different (better, worse, or just different) play experience with one (or more) archetype than with the others?

[Hjarki]

A partial list:

• Martial Arts. Storm Kick grants universal defense on Brutes/Tankers but not Stalkers/Scrappers (it doesn't even grant AE on Stalkers).
• Dark Melee/Claws. These grant +damage special benefits that don't exist on Stalkers (Stalkers get generic Build Up).
• Dark Melee/Street Justice. These have AE with incredibly small radius that the Tanker innate fixes.
• Radiation Melee/Spines. These have damage auras, which can neither crit (negative for Scrappers) nor benefit from Tanker innate. Stalkers don't even get the damage auras, which are a major reason players tend to take these sets in the first place.
• Fiery Melee. Tankers get a second PBAoE. Everyone else gets another single target attack.
• Kinetic Melee. Stalkers get standard Build Up. Everyone else gets a damage-increasing mechanic that is widely viewed as useless.
• Staff Fighting. While non-Stalkers all get the same set, Tankers doubling the target cap is a big deal for the large radius Cones from this set.

 

The armor sets deviate in more predictable ways:

• Scrappers. Scrappers only receive taunt auras on non-damaging powers - and not even all of them (Super Reflexes has a taunt aura for Brutes/Tankers but not Scrappers). Playing a melee AT without a taunt aura is often difficult as you spend far too much time chasing runners, leading many Scrapper players to automatically write off about half the armor sets.
• Stalkers. Every Stalker armor set has at least one defense toggle (although it doesn't provide much actual defense) and none have damage/taunt auras.

The ATOs also provide different bonuses. Scrappers/Stalkers get +10% recharge from both ATO sets, meaning they need less offensive diversity (controls, melee, ranged, etc.) than Tankers/Brutes.

[TungstenShark]

For a specific example...Electric Melee is probably best on a Stalker, where the worst attack gets replaced by Assassin's Strike.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Due to the nature of fury, claws followup doesn't benefit brutes nearly as much as it does scrapper/tanks. Due to the lack of claws spin, stalker claws are complete and total crap.

[Without_Pause]

Stalkers often, not always, lose out in AoE in their primary. The ones which don't by default win out as being better as a Stalker, see StJ, Ice, Elec, etc.

[Hjarki]

41 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Stalkers often, not always, lose out in AoE in their primary. The ones which don't by default win out as being better as a Stalker, see StJ, Ice, Elec, etc.

Street Justice on a Stalker loses Rib Cracker. This isn't quite as bad as losing Follow Up, but it still reduces the overall dps of the rotation.

[biostem]

Stalker dark melee loses both dark consumption and soul drain, which is a huge drop in performance, IMHO.  Stalker energy aura has higher base values than the other ATs, IIRC, but gets only a flat +recharge buff in its status protection power, instead of the stacking one per nearby enemy, that brutes & scrappers get.

Edited May 26, 2022 by biostem

[Without_Pause]

4 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Street Justice on a Stalker loses Rib Cracker. This isn't quite as bad as losing Follow Up, but it still reduces the overall dps of the rotation.

It loses Rib Cracker for AS. How the hell does that lower DPS?

[Hjarki]

7 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

It loses Rib Cracker for AS. How the hell does that lower DPS?

Rib Cracker increases dps on the target by 7.5%.

 

You also can't use Assassin's Strike as a 1-on-1 replacement due to the difference in their recharge. The result is that the Stalker rotation spends most of its time using relatively low damage basic attacks while the Scrapper rotation focuses exclusively on the high damage ones.

[Redletter]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:51 PM, Hjarki said:

 

• Stalkers. Every Stalker armor set has at least one defense toggle (although it doesn't provide much actual defense) and none have damage/taunt auras.

I would argue that is somewhat the point? Stalker's arent meant to tank, theyre not even technically intended to "scrap it out" it just so happens they can do that very well. To the contrary, theyre clearly intended to act as single target assassins -- having an innate taunt kinda defeats the purpose (not that they CANT or SHOULDNT have a taunt, Stalker's make great agro manipulators) so, while it IS annoying to have to chase runners, I would say it's not something the class as a whole needs.

 

And, likewise, damage auras are an iffy thing to work around when you consider "Hidden" is their gimmic. Scrappers and their crits work no matter what, all the time, the fact they can crit on any attack is their gimmick so the fact some of their AoE damage auras CANT do that is kinda lame -- but a stalker's gimmick is directly hindered by a damage aura.

 

Don't get me wrong, these observations are important, but I'd argue they're purposeful and not a proliferation or balance oversight quite like...

On 5/22/2022 at 8:51 PM, Hjarki said:

The ATOs also provide different bonuses. Scrappers/Stalkers get +10% recharge from both ATO sets, meaning they need less offensive diversity (controls, melee, ranged, etc.) than Tankers/Brutes.

This. To me, as a person who's like, who NEVER played this on live for more than maybe a week and was too young to understand the landscape even then? This seems like a deliberate bit of design intended to milk as much personal investment from Scrapper/Stalker players (time, money, ect), ESPECIALLY given how both the scrapper, and namely, the Stalker, stand to benefit FROM their ATOS -- like, the Hidden and Build-Up reset procs are LITERALLY GAME CHANGING for a stalker. The boosted crit chance is also INCREDIBLY welcome on the scrapper, since it gives you MORE of your gimmick that has a DRAMATIC impact on how you fill your "role" in game.

 

Meanwhile, tankers just get tankier and brutes get more damage (or more fury, which equals more damage). This makes sense, sure, and really I don't know if I'd do anything different, but I would also argue these ATOs arent nearly as necessary as the stalker/scrapper ATOS, and that presents something of a conundrum in class design.

On 5/25/2022 at 5:12 PM, biostem said:

Stalker energy aura has higher base values than the other ATs, IIRC, but gets only a flat +recharge buff in its status protection power, instead of the stacking one per nearby enemy, that brutes & scrappers get.

Again, in fairness, the stalker doesnt seem to have been conceptualized to WANT to be surrounded. So they dont get a stacking bonus for being surrounded, in the same way they dont get a taunt aura to encourage enemies to surround them.

 

I digress though. What's interesting is that Staff Fighting's stance gimmick is ENTIRELY abandoned on the Stalker (unlike Bio Armor, who's mutually exclusive toggle gimmick remains intact). Instead, they get the offensive stance for free, forever, and while that's nice it is one of the most notable differences between the melee sets to me.

[StrikerFox]

Stalkers got a raw deal on Dual Blades:

 

1. The Weaken Combo which is more useful at lower levels, can't be achieved until level 32 on Stalkers (Lvl 6 on other ATs). 

2. Two of 3 powers that trigger the Empower Combo doesn't even do damage (BU and Placate). On other ATs they're 3 damaging attacks.

3. On Stalkers, two of 3 powers that activate the Attack Vitals Combo are the set's weakest dps attacks, negating it's usefulness.

4. Stalker's Sweep Combo is a single target attack while other AT's have an AoE. Other AT's Sweep can also be chained continuously, while the Stalker relies on the recharge of BU.

 

DB is fine on Stalkers if the combo system is pretty much completely ignored.  

 

Street Justice shines on Stalkers. AS building combo points for finishers; finishers build AF for AS, just works out really well together. Some of StJ's best attack chains do not need a lot of recharge to run so slotting procs and chasing damage bonuses is pretty easy. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by StrikerFox

[Sovera]

Fire Melee on Scrappers gets its AoE at level 18 instead of 26. This is big for anyone who wants to solo because otherwise they only get lolFireBreath.

Stone Melee on Tankers gets its AoE at 26 instead of 32 which, same as above thanks to the attempt at making Fault do damage having been botched.

Martial Arts on Tankers gets its AoE at 20 instead of 26.

 

All of the sets without an early AoE (Stone Melee, Super-Strength, etc) or weak AoE (Psi Melee, Dark Melee's AoE power firmly on a cone and weak ass on ToF, etc) can use Fire Armor's Burn to compensate since its obtained at level 18. Rad Armor also kind of does this with procbombing Radiation Therapy and Ground Zero but requires either a ton of global recharge or a secondary with places to slot Force Feedback procs making it more of a late game thing.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Sovera

[Shred Monkey]

On 5/25/2022 at 1:00 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Due to the nature of fury, claws followup doesn't benefit brutes nearly as much as it does scrapper/tanks. Due to the lack of claws spin, stalker claws are complete and total crap.

 

I agree about claws being crap on stalkers.  One of claws' strengths is it's AoE capabilities, which didn't port to stalkers at all.  Even the stalker version of eviscerate is ST instead of a cone.   I have both a Claws/SR stalker and a Spines/SR stalker.  I actually prefer the Spines/SR.  The base damage is meh, but it procs assassin's focus a ton with all those AoE attacks.  Claws on the other hand loses a lot and gets nothing in return from being on a stalker.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Shred Monkey

[Riverdusk]

On 5/25/2022 at 5:12 PM, biostem said:

Stalker dark melee loses both dark consumption and soul drain, which is a huge drop in performance, IMHO.  Stalker energy aura has higher base values than the other ATs, IIRC, but gets only a flat +recharge buff in its status protection power, instead of the stacking one per nearby enemy, that brutes & scrappers get.

 

Having played dm on both AT's quite a bit (dm is my favorite melee set), I can say that personally my dm stalkers and dm scrappers felt pretty equal.  BU is up a LOT with the stalker ATO BU recharge proc plus you get the gaussian BU proc also up a lot more often with it.  Dark consumption I usually skip anyway with how ridiculous its recharge is.  I almost always have better ways to address endurance issues.

 

So, honestly it really came down to the normal difference in feel between the AT's to me.  The scrapper had a bit better aoe (if you proc out soul drain, otherwise they are equal), and the stalker had much better burst damage (which I found very useful many times to take out troublesome mobs in one quick hit in a set like dm that otherwise has no hard controls).   

 

Anyway, there definitely wasn't a "huge" drop in performance to me.   DM makes a fine stalker melee set imo.