PVP or where on the doll did the PvPers touch you

[Omega Force]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:58 AM, The_Warpact said:

I mean seriously are people that frightened of pvp that they would rather dismiss it without any kind of discourse or so paranoid that the PvPers are lurking in the background ready to strike???

There's nothing to discuss:  I will not engage in PVP.  I don't begrudge the devs for working to improve PVP for those that enjoy it, so long as it stays opt-in.

[America's Angel]

Personally, I'd quite like some sort of opt-in open challenge system that would allow players to fight each other in zones, rather than having to load into an arena. Would be neat for both PvP and RP.

 

Of course you'd need a setting that allowed players to auto opt-out of invites, though. (And possibly set the default to off to avoid people being harassed.)

 

You'd also have to disable it in certain non-combat zones such as Pocket D and Ouroboros.

 

Then again, I've seen broadcast in Recluse's Victory. I wouldn't wish that on Atlas Park. So maybe not.

[Shred Monkey]

Didn't read all the comments, so I apologize if I am repeating something already said.  But the OP's originally question got me thinking.

 

I used to PvP in a few games.  In those games I would min-max like crazy and build the absolute best build I could that exploited everything I could find to beat the other players. Then I'd go to the PvP zone and just trash anyone and everyone who I saw.  Sometimes I'd team up with like-minded people who and we'd tear other players apart together. 

 

It was awesome... that is, it was awesome  until I realized it wasn't.

 

I realized the other players weren't having as much fun as I was.  Also, I realized they also didn't look up to me and think, "that guy is amazing, someday I want to be awesome like that."  Instead they just think, "this is dumb."

 

PvP needs to be both carefully balanced and newbie friendly, but without being random luck based, or too simple.  Here's what I mean:

1.  Tic Tac Toe is balanced and not fun because it's too simple and depends too much on the luck of who goes first.

2.  Rock Paper Scissors appears to be balanced, but it's just unbalanced on equal levels.  The outcome is already decided before you start, which is not fun.  A lot of the Deck-based mobile games fall into this trap where matches are decided too much by deck choices and good/bad luck with matchmaking instead of by player skill.

3.  Coin Flips are balanced and not fun because they rely to much on randomness.

4.  Checkers is balanced, but a little too simple.

5.  Chess is balanced and richly complex.  Newbies can have fun against each other, and so can vets.  This is your gold standard, IMHO.  

 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

19 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

1.  Tic Tac Toe is balanced and not fun because it's too simple and depends too much on the luck of who goes first.

 

This is an untrue statement. Tic Tac Toe can only be won when the person that goes second doesn't understand Tic Tac Toe.

 

Correction: Tic Tac Toe can only be won if one of the players doesn't understand Tic Tac Toe.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[tidge]

23 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

2. Rock Paper Scissors appears to be balanced, but it's just unbalanced on equal levels.  The outcome is already decided before you start, which is not fun.  A lot of the Deck-based mobile games fall into this trap where matches are decided too much by deck choices and good/bad luck with matchmaking instead of by player skill.

 

Also not true, unless there is some peculiar definition of the Nash Equilibrium is being used.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I think what is actually missing from modern PvP is sportsmanship. Being able to respect your opponent for getting into the field at all and being gracious in either victory or defeat can go a long way toward making folks feel welcome.

[biostem]

PvP needs to be consensual.  If it is not, then I do NOT want to have any part in it.  If it is forced upon a PvE zone, with the only recourse being "leave the zone", then that might as well be non-consentual.  Stick to the PvP zones, and do whatever you want there...

[biostem]

29 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I think what is actually missing from modern PvP is sportsmanship. Being able to respect your opponent for getting into the field at all and being gracious in either victory or defeat can go a long way toward making folks feel welcome.

Because there is no referee to make the call, such as "X is not in the spirit of PvP, even though the game engine/systems allow it", then it'll either devolve into playing the meta-game, or players forming tight-knit, closed communities that strictly regulate themselves.  YOU may be an honorable PvP-er, but short of some external authority to enforce fair play and mature attitudes toward it, it'll just be about what AT or powerset is the FotM or who has the biggest wallet, (most inf/most time to farm, etc).

 

That being said, it would be interesting to see some sort of test event that locked out IO set bonuses, accolades, Incarnate abilities, temp powers, and so on, so it really came down to build strategy and player skill.

Edited May 30, 2022 by biostem

[desarix]

Not interested in PvP and I don't want any of it. I don't care if anyone thinks I am a coward because we are so brave playing video games...hahahaha . Don't introduce it anywhere I may be griefed as I have no interest in it. Just keep it in the PvP zones where I can completely avoid it.

 

The title of this thread is in very poor taste.

Edited May 30, 2022 by desarix

[Cancrusher]

47 minutes ago, Krimson said:

There is more engaging PvP in this thread than in game. That said, we already have an in depth and robust PvP system in Homecoming. You don't need a special build and most everyone can participate. 

 

It's called The Auction House. 

You just won the internet.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Because there is no referee to make the call, such as "X is not in the spirit of PvP, even though the game engine/systems allow it", then it'll either devolve into playing the meta-game, or players forming tight-knit, closed communities that strictly regulate themselves.  YOU may be an honorable PvP-er, but short of some external authority to enforce fair play and mature attitudes toward it, it'll just be about what AT or powerset is the FotM or who has the biggest wallet, (most inf/most time to farm, etc).

 

That being said, it would be interesting to see some sort of test event that locked out IO set bonuses, accolades, Incarnate abilities, temp powers, and so on, so it really came down to build strategy and player skill.

 

This is an MMO. The core activity, which people do pretty much nonstop is grinding in order to get stuff. People want those set bonuses, accolades, incarnate abilities, etc. so that they can feel badass and easily tear through content. There's no referee that shows up on behalf of those poor mobs and says "hey, back off. You burned these guys down before they even were aware that you were there." 

 

Enter pvp. That same drive to leverage abilities and gain whatever advantage possible is used against other players. Now all of a sudden there are complaints about people being dishonorable because they have better gear, or the same group that gathered together to take down Lord Recluse are gankers because they focused down an individual in a pvp zone (who didn't go to the effort of getting a team). There's an obvious hypocrisy here. It's not about the other person doing something dishonorable. It's about the aggrieved not being willing or able to easily get what they want, so they vilify the people in their way. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter whether people agree with this assessment or not because pretty much all  of the anti-pvp sentiment relates to one type of pvp: deathmatch.

Coh offers two types of deathmatch: arena and zone. Arena is under-utilized and zone is an inherently unbalanced situation that people bumble into. These modes can be improved, but what the game really needs is other types of pvp that are not deathmatch. These game modes might not even involve characters directly affecting each other, or only being able to affect each other after completing a pve objective and earning some sort of temp power. There are tons of things that could be done. But any time "pvp" is mentioned, you have to wade through these rehashed traumas of people getting mocked in a zone by some twat 10 or 15 years ago. And yes, that is a gross simplification but it's close enough to get the point across.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I think what is actually missing from modern PvP is sportsmanship. Being able to respect your opponent for getting into the field at all and being gracious in either victory or defeat can go a long way toward making folks feel welcome.

There are ggs (short for good games) given after every match during pick up games on Tuesdays on Indomitable. This is likely the only organized PvPing occurring on the entire Homecoming server at the moment, so I'm assuming you are referring to something else? Careful with broad brushes! Speed ITFs and hardmode isn't the only way to PvE, there's tons of other stuff that fall under that banner. Same goes for PvP.

 

On the other hand, I've heard some gutter talk as well and I just simply put the culprit on ignore and continue enjoying my game time. 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Because there is no referee to make the call, such as "X is not in the spirit of PvP, even though the game engine/systems allow it", then it'll either devolve into playing the meta-game, or players forming tight-knit, closed communities that strictly regulate themselves.  YOU may be an honorable PvP-er, but short of some external authority to enforce fair play and mature attitudes toward it, it'll just be about what AT or powerset is the FotM or who has the biggest wallet, (most inf/most time to farm, etc).

 

That being said, it would be interesting to see some sort of test event that locked out IO set bonuses, accolades, Incarnate abilities, temp powers, and so on, so it really came down to build strategy and player skill.

There's definitely referees in the organized arena league that I linked on the first page. Players that participate agree to a set of rules in advance of signing up and the rules are enforced during each game. 

[biostem]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

There's definitely referees in the organized arena league that I linked on the first page. Players that participate agree to a set of rules in advance of signing up and the rules are enforced during each game. 

Which would fall squarely into the "tight-knit, closed communities that strictly regulate themselves" that I mentioned before...

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, desarix said:

The title of this thread is in very poor taste.

I didn't actually read the whole title before posting in this thread several times, but after seeing this comment I actually agree title is abrasive. May be worth trying a different title if further discussion is to be had. 

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

There's no referee that shows up on behalf of those poor mobs and says "hey, back off. You burned these guys down before they even were aware that you were there."

I guess you don't understand the difference between PEOPLE and NPCs, then.

 

18 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Enter pvp. That same drive to leverage abilities and gain whatever advantage possible is used against other players. Now all of a sudden there are complaints about people being dishonorable because they have better gear, or the same group that gathered together to take down Lord Recluse are gankers because they focused down an individual in a pvp zone (who didn't go to the effort of getting a team). There's an obvious hypocrisy here.

There's a reason there are things like weight classes other other such divisions in sports.  I guess you're having a problem understanding the distinction between PLAYERs and NPCs...

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Which would fall squarely into the "tight-knit, closed communities that strictly regulate themselves" that I mentioned before...

???

 

This is an open PvP league that is sponsored by Homecoming for everyone and anyone to join. Before I assume, did you happen to read the post I made referencing the league? It's entirely open to anyone, the rules are based on input from the participants - hell I gave input myself and they changed the ruleset to reflect that in less than 24 hours. 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

This is an open PvP league that is sponsored by Homecoming for everyone and anyone to join. Before I assume, did you happen to read the post I made referencing the league? It's entirely open to anyone, the rules are based on input from the participants - hell I gave input myself and they changed the ruleset to reflect that in less than 24 hours. 

It's "closed" in the sense that any rando can't just walk up to a match and take part.  Even if I grant that part, the other aspects of my statement still apply.

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, biostem said:

It's "closed" in the sense that any rando can't just walk up to a match and take part.  Even if I grant that part, the other aspects of my statement still apply.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I was a 'random' Homecoming player who was interested in this league after another player made an awesome YouTube video (which I linked on the first page) to promote the league and drum up interest. I wanted to have fun and win billions of influence in prizes. Just like when I participate in Homecoming sponsored Costume Contests, special events, architect entertainment monthly dev choices, and the like. I am a player just like you and everyone else that logs in to the game. Your opinion has just as much value as mine. If you were interested in joining the league (before rosters locked last week) all you would have had to do was raise your hand. You didn't need a build in advance, hell my team PLed three characters for me and gave me over 1.5 billion influence to slot them. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. 

[JasperStone]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I think what is actually missing from modern PvP is sportsmanship. Being able to respect your opponent for getting into the field at all and being gracious in either victory or defeat can go a long way toward making folks feel welcome.

THIS.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I was a 'random' Homecoming player who was interested in this league after another player made an awesome YouTube video (which I linked on the first page) to promote the league and drum up interest. I wanted to have fun and win billions of influence in prizes. Just like when I participate in Homecoming sponsored Costume Contests, special events, architect entertainment monthly dev choices, and the like. I am a player just like you and everyone else that logs in to the game. Your opinion has just as much value as mine. If you were interested in joining the league (before rosters locked last week) all you would have had to do was raise your hand. You didn't need a build in advance, hell my team PLed three characters for me and gave me over 1.5 billion influence to slot them. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. 

You don't seem to be understanding the distinction I'm making between "open PvP" and "closed PvP".  "Open" means anyone can walk up and participate - you don't have to join anything.  "Closed" means there's some application process, or at least some level of scrutiny with regards to who can join.  Can you at least acknowledge that difference?

Edited May 30, 2022 by biostem

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I guess you don't understand the difference between PEOPLE and NPCs, then.

 

People think and adapt. They will change their tactics in order to win. That's the core distinction here. I don't attack people in a pvp zone because I don't like them, any more than I attack a pve mob because of it's personality.

1 hour ago, biostem said:

There's a reason there are things like weight classes other other such divisions in sports.  I guess you're having a problem understanding the distinction between PLAYERs and NPCs...

 

So if there's a player in a pvp zone, despite the actual design/narrative justification/stated purpose etc. of the zone I should tailor my activities to what random individuals in the zone want. Is that what you want? Do you tell other people in pve how to play their characters?

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, biostem said:

You don't seem to be understanding the distinction I'm making between "open PvP" and "closed PvP".  "Open" means anyone can walk up and participate - you don't have to join anything.  "Closed" means there's some application process, or at least some level of scrutiny with regards to who can join".  Can you at least acknowledge that difference?

So you're saying Arena matches are different than a PvP zone? Of course! I said so myself in a previous post. Semantics gets me in trouble sometimes 😆 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

People think and adapt. They will change their tactics in order to win. That's the core distinction here. I don't attack people in a pvp zone because I don't like them, any more than I attack a pve mob because of it's personality.

Right, so to treat NPCs like they need an advocate or referee to ensure fair play is kind of laughable.

 

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

So if there's a player in a pvp zone, despite the actual design/narrative justification/stated purpose etc. of the zone I should tailor my activities to what random individuals in the zone want. Is that what you want? Do you tell other people in pve how to play their characters?

Did you miss where I said way upthread that I don't care what you do in a PvP zone, since consent is explicit in you going there?  It's non-consensual PvP that's at hand here, since the OP was discussing a PvP event that would be sprung on players in a PvE zone.

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Because there is no referee to make the call, such as "X is not in the spirit of PvP, even though the game engine/systems allow it", then it'll either devolve into playing the meta-game, or players forming tight-knit, closed communities that strictly regulate themselves.  YOU may be an honorable PvP-er, but short of some external authority to enforce fair play and mature attitudes toward it, it'll just be about what AT or powerset is the FotM or who has the biggest wallet, (most inf/most time to farm, etc).

 

That being said, it would be interesting to see some sort of test event that locked out IO set bonuses, accolades, Incarnate abilities, temp powers, and so on, so it really came down to build strategy and player skill.

 

This already happens. A lot of the player-run events have house rules that make them more balanced/fair. The official 8v8 league, Taco Tuesday Kickball events, the Fightclub community, and also the Platypus sg's smallscale stuff. These sub-communities are the majority of PvP in this game.

 

30 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

This is an MMO. The core activity, which people do pretty much nonstop is grinding in order to get stuff. People want those set bonuses, accolades, incarnate abilities, etc. so that they can feel badass and easily tear through content. There's no referee that shows up on behalf of those poor mobs and says "hey, back off. You burned these guys down before they even were aware that you were there." 

 

Enter pvp. That same drive to leverage abilities and gain whatever advantage possible is used against other players. Now all of a sudden there are complaints about people being dishonorable because they have better gear, or the same group that gathered together to take down Lord Recluse are gankers because they focused down an individual in a pvp zone (who didn't go to the effort of getting a team). There's an obvious hypocrisy here. It's not about the other person doing something dishonorable. It's about the aggrieved not being willing or able to easily get what they want, so they vilify the people in their way. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter whether people agree with this assessment or not because pretty much all  of the anti-pvp sentiment relates to one type of pvp: deathmatch.

Coh offers two types of deathmatch: arena and zone. Arena is under-utilized and zone is an inherently unbalanced situation that people bumble into. These modes can be improved, but what the game really needs is other types of pvp that are not deathmatch. These game modes might not even involve characters directly affecting each other, or only being able to affect each other after completing a pve objective and earning some sort of temp power. There are tons of things that could be done. But any time "pvp" is mentioned, you have to wade through these rehashed traumas of people getting mocked in a zone by some twat 10 or 15 years ago. And yes, that is a gross simplification but it's close enough to get the point across.

 

There is PvP stuff being worked on super slowly. Open PvP in bases, PvP in AE, and some sort of "Capture the Flag" style thing. But I'm not up to speed on how far along it is.

 

I just want PvP in bases so I can make a fightclub dojo.