The current crafting system is pointless.

[Galactiman]

6 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

I'm not angry I gave you an explanation. 

My question to you is why are you a quitter? You presented your case and when you had differing opinions respond you gave up because everyone was "hostile and assuming".

No they weren't they are a posts half agreeing with you, providing alternatives, and comparisons. Why haven't you responded to them? Instead of the ones you took offense to, because, you quit as soon as you got some flack on your position. This isn't a popularity contest and who cares if people disagree with you. Getting emotional and start assuming how people "feel" totally knocked the feet out from any argument you had. You railroaded your own thread with this.

 

Why should the thread be locked? Because, you railroaded it? You don't like it because it didn't go your way?

There's alot of good posts in here with info, and responses that provide substance for others.

Actually just lock yourself out of the thread since you obviously don't want to participate and just want to whine and project your emotions onto others.

You may want to think about why you keep posting these long winded, hostile rants making assumptions about the motives and emotions of someone you don't know and who has barely said a word to you.

 

Anyway, there hasn't been a lot of discussion about the actual crafting system. There has been an almost unanimous agreement that the crafting system is just fine, a couple of minor thoughts to the contrary, a bunch of people making strawman arguments involving the assumption that any changes would make the crafting system too similar to bad designs of other MMOs or that I must have come from MMO X and just want the game to be more like that, and then it basically turned into a discussion about drop rates and the economy.

 

The thread doesn't need me just because I started it, it was meant to spark a discussion. So there is no need to insult someone just because they haven't participated in a thread they started according to your arbitrary timeline, especially when you don't know what real life constraints a person is under and how it impacts the frequency of their participation in an online forum about a superhero video game.

 

Regardless, the reason I suggested closing the thread, nevermind the hostility, is because it's completely off course and doesn't appear to be a topic that the forum going community seems interested in discussing. If you want to prove me wrong, I challenge you to redirect your energy into the actual topic at hand.

[Galactiman]

Edit: double post.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Galactiman

[TheZag]

I dont craft much.  But if i were to make a change it would be to have 1 tech and 1 arcane salvage in each rarity that covers lvl 1-19,  20-39, and 40-50.  It makes sense with how salvage is fungible through the AH but i get that alot of people like it how it is now.  Ill probably continue to mostly not craft and just purchase from those who do.  

 

[Sabrehawk]

I am perfectly happy with the crafting system as it is. If it isn't broken, well you know the rest.

[Luminara]

Okay, girls, you're both pretty.  Now stop the hair pulling before I break out the popcorn ostrich.

[Wild Claw]

14 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Okay, girls, you're both pretty.  Now stop the hair pulling before I break out the popcorn ostrich.

 

... I wanna see the popcorn ostrich.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Wild Claw said:

 

... I wanna see the popcorn ostrich.

[catsi563]

you been giving bob the caramel coffee flavored popcorn again havent you?

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, catsi563 said:

you been giving bob the caramel coffee flavored popcorn again havent you?

[Bionic_Flea]

What happens when a werewolf bites an ostrich (or was it an ostrich biting a werewolf?) . . . . You don't wanna know.

 

I'm warning you!

 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[Redletter]

13 hours ago, Ukase said:

You raise some interesting points - but the one thing that you haven't mentioned is that the recipe in question is a very rare. 
Anecdotally, these are far less rare for me than they used to be. But, back on live, I didn't have a true farmer, I just had a fire/stone tank that could farm the dreck map, and did.

But I had to be present, controlling my character. Burn on auto would have done the job, I think...but I'm not real sure, as it never occurred to me to try. 

That's true! I think you did the math for Panacea in an above post, which ISN'T very rare, and still manages to get to like, what? 20mil or something? I don't know, I'd have to look up in the thread. But! I also kinda like, I touched on this by way of the whole "RNG is a bad basis of crafting". I didn't just mean for the materials, I meant for recipes as well. It's why I *really* like Market Crash and I'm kinda saddened that Market Crash's purple recipe reward is a once per CHARACTER reward, as opposed to a once per day reward or something (we've already kinda touched on how expensive materials can be on the AH -- which is ALSO the only 100% reliable way to get the salvage you want since apparently it will auto generate the salvage youre bidding for once you bid a certain amount, regardless of how many are currently listed).

 

13 hours ago, Ukase said:

In any event, if you take farming out of the equation, AND you take the Market Crash auto-purple drop out of the equation, I think it's safe to say, I might have gotten 5 purple drops in the past couple of years. Maybe 8. But, really, they're very, very rare as a drop. At least, they are for me. 

The rarity is why these are so relatively expensive. Think, back on live, a very rare recipe, uncrafted could cost you well over 250M! Even the Fortunata Hypnosis, the sleep set, arguably the least used would have cost you about 225k. And the salvage for it would be closer to 1-2M, with same crafting costs. So, the percentages on live were even more out of whack.

That's really wild, and I've heard like, a lot about Set IOs and the market and stuff from back duirng live, where some of these things would need to bought for multiple increments of the inf CAP which is like, insane to me. I will wholly admit I have the benefit of literally never getting even remotely close to that kinda of market culture, and while what you say is true...

13 hours ago, Ukase said:

So, I think it's about perspective.

I appreciate this, I also have to say it's not a good idea to use this as an excuse. Youre perspective comes from having seen the market culture during times I've never lived in, and saying "oh it's not NEARLY as bad as it was before!"

13 hours ago, Ukase said:

Yours is interesting. And I don't disagree with a lot of what you stated. But - ya gotta remember that purples are very rare. Scarcity means low supply. 10% global recharge means higher demand. And when someone gets one they can't use, they can craft it, keep it, store it, convert it or sell it. But if they do sell it, they want to get as much as they can. So, that will push the price higher. Eventually, there's a balance between what folks want to get for it, and what folks are willing to pay. 

I used the purple as an example I just had one hand, but you can apply the EXACT same idea to most recipes. It's like... the crafting system is tied now so intrinsically to the market, that there's an argument to be made that you shouldn't even be buying or farming for the high rarity recipes at all because you can just buy the cheap cheap cheap yellow recipes, then, use converters to turn those low level, cheap, less rare enhancements into the ones you want. Because why would you spend 750k 

13 hours ago, Ukase said:

Folks like me who are more frugal get annoyed at the high cost of these items. Other folks, not so much. It's just part of the game, I figure. I don't see a good way around it. 

Increasing supply through market crash and farming is probably the only thing keeping these items cheap.

 

I mean, I think you just answered the problem. In another thread, I've mentioned Overwhelming Force, an enhancement set that's VERY good and can be farmed reliably and infinitely. Sure, you can't get a SPECIFIC io from the set just by doing SBB, but you can get them, 100%, every run. Doing this for Market Crash solves the scarcity problem.

 

This, obviously, doesnt solve all my issues with crafting, and I feel like I've digressed from the point of "crafting" and now kinda strayed into like, how crafting and the market intertwine... which I didn't mean to do.

 

What I'm saying is that you can do this with just about any recipe that isn't something you can buy off the workbench. A solution might be to make all recipes purchasable through the workbench. It's a wild solution and maybe not popular? But I think like, something has to give. If you're gonna keep the crafting tax, and the random salvage drops, then it shouldnt be a crap shoot for if I ever get a Gaussian recipe, or a Sting of the Manticore, or Sudden Acceleration or whatever.

 

I also like the idea of like... giving specific entities in the game world specific drops. Nobody like Synapse much, but, what if at the END of Synapse you got a guaranteed Panacea? Citadel giving you the blues? Don't worry, you've got a a Gambler's waiting for you at the end?

 

I dunno. I just don't like having to deal with totally random chance for crafting recipes, AND materials, AND having to pay for crafting the thing I wanna craft after already having to pay more than double the price of the recipe itself, because of the aforementioned totally random things.

 

Again, like, i don't claim to be an authority on anything. Im not a crafter. Im actually allergic to the pixels they use for the workbenches.

[tidge]

Time to remind folks: You can get any specific Overwhelming Force/ATO/Winter for 100 merits at the ATM. They aren't even recipes like the Very Rare or PVP pieces.

 

Is this too much effort to craft?

[Galactiman]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Time to remind folks: You can get any specific Overwhelming Force/ATO/Winter for 100 merits at the ATM. They aren't even recipes like the Very Rare or PVP pieces.

 

Is this too much effort to craft?

I mean that's not crafting and has nothing to do with crafting. It's just a vendor selling you something. 

[Greycat]

34 minutes ago, Galactiman said:

I mean that's not crafting and has nothing to do with crafting. It's just a vendor selling you something. 

 

No, but it is pointing out there's an alternative means of getting something if you don't like / have no luck with the crafting system. *shrug*

 

(Granted, my typical way to do things there is "Get one of my 50s to burn 100 merits on a winter, catalyze it with the catalyst they've gotten for killing stuff that day, drop it on the AH, buy more than one of whatever else there is that i need with the inf from that.")

[Ukase]

14 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

My thoughts on the crafting system are such. It could use work, too often there is confusion from new players in ones unfamiliar with the system. I'd like to see the University IO training mission be automatically unlocked as soon as a toon receives their first recipe.

Once this is completed then it unlocks across the global that way it doesn't have to repeated and players can now craft recipes into IOs.

 

As far as the rest is concerned it is a drag sometimes but, compared to other games it's just fine. I think drop rates need looked at, as I see the same salvage drops more often. Example, Ancient Artifact drops more than Ancient Bone, why is that? They are both common magic salvage. At least this happens to me.

With regards to the invention tutorial, not only would I like to see it unlocked at the first recipe drop, I'd like it expanded to include converters, catalysts and boosters. 

[tidge]

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

Time to remind folks: You can get any specific Overwhelming Force/ATO/Winter for 100 merits at the ATM. They aren't even recipes like the Very Rare or PVP pieces.

 

Is this too much effort to craft?

 

2 hours ago, Galactiman said:

I mean that's not crafting and has nothing to do with crafting. It's just a vendor selling you something. 

 

Ehem, first post in the thread:

 

On 6/27/2022 at 12:19 PM, Galactiman said:

 If there are no plans to change the system at all then it would be better to either get rid of the crafting system altogether and have IOs just drop instead of recipes, or at the very least just have recipes require inf to craft, because at the end of the day that's what it is already, just with extra pointless steps. This isn't a live service game anymore, we don't need pointless time wasters to keep people subbed.

 

So do you NOT want IOs to "just drop" and do you NOT want to "just buy enhancements" because it is too much trouble to go to the ATM or Auction House?

 

Say what you will, but essentially every character is "crafted" in that there are a wide variety of power pools (beyond the primary/secondary) and there are plenty of slotting options for almost all of them.

 

If simply buying isn't enough, we also have crafting via university workbench, crafting via vanguard base and crafting via the incarnate system. How many more different means of fine-tuning characters and converting Inf/Drops should the game have?

 

[Galactiman]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

So do you NOT want IOs to "just drop"

 

Personally, yes, since I enjoy random loot (you know, a staple of the RPG genre), but I don't enjoy crafting (a typically optional, alternative method for targeted loot acquisition). I find the random loot system unsatisfying because it is gated behind a terrible crafting system that is essentially just buying things from a vendor with extra steps.

 

Quote

and do you NOT want to "just buy enhancements" because it is too much trouble to go to the ATM or Auction House?

 

I do want that system, and I'm well aware it already exists. However, it is completely separate from the random loot and crafting systems, which are the topic of discussion. What I don't want is a random loot system that is inextricably tied to the crafting system, and I don't want a crappy crafting system that is just a glorified vendor.

 

What I want to see, and what is typical to most RPGs, is the following:

1. Completely Random: usable loot that drops when you defeat things or complete missions
2. Hybrid of random and targeted:
   • A crafting system (preferably a meaningful one that isn't a grocery list, most games fail at this). This is hybrid because you usually target specific materials (e.g. go mine some copper), but there is usually some randomness to things like the amount, quality, location, etc.
   • Enemies that sometimes drop specific things you want (i.e. X boss in Y dungeon sometimes drops Z item that I want for my build)
3. Completely Targeted: farm a currency (e.g. inf, merits) and just go buy the thing I want

What we have right now is one system that is a sloppy conglomeration of all three of these systems, and also the third system. Which is why most people just stick to the third system.

[Andreah]

7 hours ago, Galactiman said:

you usually target specific materials (e.g. go mine some copper), but there is usually some randomness to things like the amount, quality, location, etc.

What if, in CoH, the various salvages weren't bucketed together in the auction, so that if you wanted to buy say, a Luck Charm, someone had to post a Luck Charm for sale, not just any salvage of the same rarity and let the auction covert them magically. And what if to get a luck charm, you had to fight group themed for magic? I.e., the PI Council radios everyone runs won't drop them, but Carnival of Shadows mobs do.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Andreah said:

What if, in CoH, the various salvages weren't bucketed together in the auction, so that if you wanted to buy say, a Luck Charm, someone had to post a Luck Charm for sale, not just any salvage of the same rarity and let the auction covert them magically. And what if to get a luck charm, you had to fight group themed for magic? I.e., the PI Council radios everyone runs won't drop them, but Carnival of Shadows mobs do.

 

That's the way it was on live.  Led to really, really annoying pricing where people ended up just not bothering with the system.  Luck Charms tended to be pricy. (And in beta, people were sure boresights would be *the* thing to try to corner the market on to get rich.)

[Andreah]

30 minutes ago, Greycat said:

That's the way it was on live

Exactly.

 

I sometimes wonder if everyone remembers or experienced it. More complex, deeper systems aren't always better.

 

I could be convinced that salvage is bucketed into too few categories. But even just bucketing them by origin would have some side effects many, if not most, people won't like.

 

 

[Greycat]

So. Tackling this a different way. I don't think an "other MMO-like" crafting system would really fit in COH. The primary reason is that there's no gear - meaning you don't depend on having X armor or Y weapon at certain levels to face enemies, and you don't have to keep leveling that up.

 

When I think of other-MMO systems, what I think of (besides basically giant random time wasters, if I'm being honest) is something like, oh. You want to be able to make weapons. You can buy materials or try to get drops (and compete with everyone else for that rare drop, soemthing else that doesn't happen in COH - and is one of the things often mentioned for "why I prefer COH to other MMOs.")

 

So, the ... "web" of other MMO crafting (making one up here) often looks like:

- Learn to mine. Go out, mine copper, mine X ore, Y ore, Z ore, with better chances on lower ores (which slowly become obsolete.) Often have to keep getting trained on "higher" mining skills and/or buy new equipment.

- Oh, you want to make steel. Need to learn to cut down trees, so you can burn wood, make charcoal, combine for steel, as you skill up, you can make better steel. Also need the wood for weapon shafts and the like. 

- Learn blacksmithing, so you can start making alloys.

- Learn weaponmaking. Build 20 butter knives so you can make 10 -3 daggers, then 10 -2 daggers, then one dagger of stabbiness, etc. (Keep breaking down all the ones you made, if you can, to try to get *something* back, burning materials, cash and time all the while, with a risk of failure.)

- Keep running back and forth (and often, in these other games, have to pay an NPC to 'train' you for higher levels.

- Possibly, as mentioned, have to fight a specific creature/win a raid/etc. to get some special plan or material (instead of a +5 Longsword of Slashy, you get Great Pumpernickel's Deathblade of Darkness or something.) Which usually has a chance shared or rolled for or whatnot among the entire raiding party.

 

I don't know how much of that sort of thing the OP would want - but it'd be kind of hard to fit into COH.

 

COH -

- has had one whole "crafting" system removed (base items - the "Add personal item" in the base editor is still there, but inactive, for instance, and all base salvage is under "legacy" salvage, which people pick up mostly for RP purposes.)

- The closest we have to "skilling up" crafting is (a) memorizing common IO recipies, making it so you don't need the recipe and the cost is halved, and (b) - if you want to count it - earning the portable workbench.

- Of course, we had one added in the Incarnate system, which (thanks to being a paid system) started getting multiple "currencies" - shards/notice/etc. JUST for Alpha, when introduced two different iXPs (Physical and Psychic) for powers for the first tree plus their own salvage, then we were going to have "Advanced IXP" - this was simplified (and, frankly, we could get rid of the whole "shard" based system and convert it all to threads, given there's not a need for something to encourage having a paid subscription now.)

- Plus, of course, we don't have "gear" as mentioned. Armor or attacks are "something you do," not "something you wear." You can pick Broadsword and it doesn't matter if it looks like a Khopesh, a flamberge or an energy blade - it's going to do broadsword thigns at broadsword numbers. You don't have to keep replacing it or switching it out.

- Even some of the other "other MMO crafted things," like potions, wouldn't really work as a crafting system. Inspirations do the same thing and drop like water in a hurricane. There's not a reason to craft anything there.

 

So fitting something "other MMO-like" I think would be ... difficult. Both to fit in and to "sell" to the playerbase.

 

But, I may be missing something. So, for the OP -

You're given free rein. In 6 months to a year, your crafting system will be in the game. What will it look like? Walk through the journey of a level 1 you choose to be your "crafter." What are they doing, what are their goals, what are they looking for, what are they making?

[Andreah]

I think if we were going to get a more traditional style mmo crafting system, it would need to come in flavors by origin. E.g., technology does traditional item manufacture. Magic does spells, brews and magic item enchanting. Science does experiments and breakthroughs/accidents,. Mutation does something biological, and so on.

 

It sounds really cool, but not for City of Heroes.

 

Crafting items from recipes and salvage is really only one small part of our crafting system. It also includes converting, catalyzing, boosting, combining, and trading/auctioning. And converting is pretty complicated. I don't think more really improves my game experience.

[Ukase]

4 hours ago, Andreah said:

Exactly.

 

I sometimes wonder if everyone remembers or experienced it. More complex, deeper systems aren't always better.

 

I could be convinced that salvage is bucketed into too few categories. But even just bucketing them by origin would have some side effects many, if not most, people won't like.

 

 

I was reminded recently that at minimum, more than a few players never played on live, or if they did, they were a munchkin figuratively, or literally, sitting on someone's lap. 
A lot of folks have no idea what an unseeded salvage price tag would look like. They don't understand that 20M for a purple is very inexpensive. Heck, they don't even understand that even the most expensive thing in this game is cheap, relatively, when you consider how simple it is to get influence/infamy/information. 

I tried really hard to grasp what the OP wants - and doesn't want, I think I get it now, thanks to his/her recap. (but I could be wrong. I've learned that reading comprehension isn't as strong a suit for me as I would like to think!) 

 

12 hours ago, Galactiman said:

What I want to see, and what is typical to most RPGs, is the following:

1. Completely Random: usable loot that drops when you defeat things or complete missions
2. Hybrid of random and targeted:
   • A crafting system (preferably a meaningful one that isn't a grocery list, most games fail at this). This is hybrid because you usually target specific materials (e.g. go mine some copper), but there is usually some randomness to things like the amount, quality, location, etc.
   • Enemies that sometimes drop specific things you want (i.e. X boss in Y dungeon sometimes drops Z item that I want for my build)
3. Completely Targeted: farm a currency (e.g. inf, merits) and just go buy the thing I want

What we have right now is one system that is a sloppy conglomeration of all three of these systems, and also the third system. Which is why most people just stick to the third system.

Regarding #1 - we do have that in a sense. We get usable loot. But I think the OP is wanting that everything that drops be useful, rather than something to vendor because we can't use it for varying reasons. Or we don't want to use it. 

"I did the Synapse TF, and besides merits & XP, all I got was this Basilisk's Gaze recipe that I can't use." 

That's a fair statement. The game is set up to drop random loot instead of specific things that the game should probably know we can use. For example, why should the game drop a level 16 Steadfast protection on a character that doesn't have any type of resistance armor? I always felt like my emp should have gotten items like Doctored Wounds, or Miracle, that type of thing. 

I believe the converters were introduced to specifically address that. Yay, a new currency. Just what every game needs, right? 


I do think we could make the following changes without much hassle:
Random enhancement drops should align with your origin so you can use them. They should all be the level of the npc that was defeated. So, if you want a +3 SO, then get to clobbering +3 NPCs. 

Recipes should only require one type of salvage - arcane or technology. My reason for this is because when you're doing an arc, you get a recipe, the salvage for that recipe, should have a chance to drop within that arc. It drives me up the wall when I need a bleeding stone for a recipe that dropped on a freak map, and I'll never get it until I fight magic origin npcs. 
Looking for specific loot shouldn't drive my choice of arcs, I don't think. It should be the story itself. But that's just my opinion. 

It's odd. In AE maps, both arcane and tech salvage may drop, but not "in the wild". And that's crazy to me.