issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, dtj714 said:

 

Before you had 170% recharge. Now, at MOST, it’s Hasten only? Maybe the 170% was an “outlier” (you didn’t represent it as such at the time), but so is Hasten only. If you’re going to take Hasten, then recharge is important to you, and you’re going to get as much it as you can. 

 

I think I’ll take Luminara’s maths.

Sigh 

JC on a stick.

 

As I SAID, that is one build I have that is an outlier.

 

The follow up post was because someone asked for MORE DATA.

 

So I said sure, and then tested and posted more builds I have, specifically SO BALANCE POINTS.

 

I mean really, read all of it before you jump off cliffs to conclusions.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, dtj714 said:

I think you also missed Inky Aspect?

 

Oppressive Gloom clone.  Only difference is the name.

[csr]

To me this is now in the neighborhood of a wash.  I'd be happier with a 4s, window since then it would be only a minor nerf to a few toons and be a net gain overall.  In either case my Rad Defender will probably get more use out of Force of Nature.  And I'll probably keep more purple pills handy for various toons.  A slight change of tactics can help cover for the nerf element of this.  So at 5s I think the nerf to toons reliant on offensive toggles for survival and the QoL improvement for those that aren't is close to the balance point.  I'd just prefer the change to be a net gain, instead of this "why bother?" middle ground.

Edited August 6, 2022 by csr

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, csr said:

To me this is now in the neighborhood of a wash.  I'd be happier with a 4s, window since then it would be only a minor nerf to a few toons and be a net gain overall.  In either case my Rad Defender will probably get more use out of Force of Nature.  And I'll probably keep more purple pills handy for various toons.  A slight change of tactics can help cover for the nerf element of this.  So at 5s I think the nerf to toons reliant on offensive toggles for survival and the QoL improvement for those that aren't is close to the balance point.  I'd just prefer the change to be a net gain, instead of this "why bother?" middle ground.

I think it is a serious error to believe that this is not a real gain. There are plenty of other things you can do in those first two or three seconds besides just turning your toggle on and then being stuck in its animation and rooted.

[csr]

It's not the "first two or three seconds", it's the full 5 seconds it takes for the Suspend to expire.  And the debuffs are typically back in less than 1 second after getting free of mez (some take longer if I get a BF used quickly and have little +Rech) even if the rooting and animation take longer.

 

To me, the QoL gain just isn't that huge.  Most of the retoggling time for offensive toggles for me is done outside of combat and is of little concern, while that done in combat tends to involve important powers that I now get back later in the fight than before.  Do I really care how this change affects Blazing Aura on my Tanker?  No, because it almost never detoggles/Suspends at all.  Do I care how fast I can get Hot Feet back up on my Controller?  Not really.  The gain for most of my toons is that their offensive toggles come back without having to worry about it.  And in some rare cases they get them back in long fights without spending fight time on retoggling.   So those advantages to the change mean very little to me.  It's the critical debuffs that carry the most weight to me with regards to this change.

 

The powers in question are the key survival tools for some toons.  Radiation Infection takes 0.5s to get back into use with 1.5s of root and ~1.7s of ArcanaTime used.  Venomous Gas is 0.833s, 2.03s and 2.244s respectively.  Hurricane is the same.  Darkest Night is one of the worst at 0.5s, 3.17s and 3.432s.  Time's Juncture is only 0.567s, 0.67s and 0.924s.

 

The balance point for me actually hinges on Recharge Time, the likelihood of the toon having inspirations handy and the likelihood of my having a bunch of dangerous aggro.  And that in turn depends heavily on build, level of difficulty and team size and composition.  The way I build toons and the fact that I solo a lot and often on higher difficulties means that I find that not having my key debuff toggles is life threatening for a number of toons.  As I said, this will just require a change of tactics for those toons.  More stopping into the base to get inspirations, lowering diff, more use of Clarion or whatever.

Edited August 6, 2022 by csr
Clarity

[csr]

One more comment... there is a small QoL issue with this change as well.  You need to be more aware of where your toggle anchors are.  I had an instance with a Beam/Cold Corr that used Snow Storm to bring some flying Freaks down, then hit them with Freezing Rain (EDIT: Sleet) and was slept briefly.  It didn't occur to me to keep track of the Snow Storm anchor.  I saw he wasn't there, but assumed he was in the mess on the floor in the rain.  He wasn't, he was off getting 2 more spawns for me to fight.  So when you get mezzed now you need to remember that maybe you want that debuff detoggled before those 5 seconds run out.

Edited August 6, 2022 by csr

[Shocktacular]

csr summed up the issue quite nicely, IMO: This seems like a relatively minor QoL improvement for characters that are already pretty sturdy while nerfing squishier characters who need these debuffs to survive.

[ForeverLaxx]

11 minutes ago, Shocktacular said:

csr summed up the issue quite nicely, IMO: This seems like a relatively minor QoL improvement for characters that are already pretty sturdy while nerfing squishier characters who need these debuffs to survive.

I and others have been saying as such since the start, but everyone's focused on combat scenarios that don't happen and playstyles that are essentially just facetanking while staring at a powers bar. It's a nerf for how the game works in a practical setting but they're only interested in the theoretical.

[Wavicle]

If you "NEED" that offensive toggle on in a matter of a couple seconds or else you will DIE there is something else wrong with your tactics or build besides that you just got mezzed.

Or possibly, just possibly, people are exaggerating (knowingly or unknowingly) how essential it is they get that toggle back up.

[Wavicle]

The more I think about it, the less these arguments make sense.

People are saying the toggle would be ready immediately, as if they've been in a mez for a while and the toggle has already recharged.

Well, if that's true then you SOMEHOW survived the duration of the mez without your toggle on, so I think you can survive for another few seconds without it.

[Perma-Newbie]

Speaking as a really bad player that won't notice my toggles are down until a half hour later, I love this change.

 

But I frequently admit that I'm in no way an ideal player, I couldn't min-max if I tried, and my optimized gameplay is a 54 Studebaker in need of a tune up.

[Shocktacular]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The more I think about it, the less these arguments make sense.

People are saying the toggle would be ready immediately, as if they've been in a mez for a while and the toggle has already recharged.

Well, if that's true then you SOMEHOW survived the duration of the mez without your toggle on, so I think you can survive for another few seconds without it.

 

Most often the reason I need the toggle up "right nao" is BECAUSE I've survived the duration of the mez without it... which means my health bar is almost depleted.  If I die while mezzed then, well, there's nothing I could've done (without a break-free or equivalent).  If I can pull off a skin-of-my-teeth save, it's thrilling!  If not, well, it's practice to do better next time.  But if the game itself makes such a save impossible... 😞 

[Omega-202]

3 hours ago, Shocktacular said:

 

Most often the reason I need the toggle up "right nao" is BECAUSE I've survived the duration of the mez without it... which means my health bar is almost depleted.  If I die while mezzed then, well, there's nothing I could've done (without a break-free or equivalent).  If I can pull off a skin-of-my-teeth save, it's thrilling!  If not, well, it's practice to do better next time.  But if the game itself makes such a save impossible... 😞 

What toggle is saving your ass better than an active power like a heal, escape or inspiration?  Honest question, because I cannot think of a single powerset where the offensive toggle is going to save me better than popping all of the greens and purples in my inventory, or hitting Eye of Magus and running to recoup.  

 

Give us a concrete example.  

[Troo]

would Darkest Night count?

 

[Omega-202]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

would Darkest Night count?

 

You're talking about the 3.42 s Arcanatime power that MIGHT slow down damage enough for you to not get insta dropped? Not a chance! And even if it does help, you really think it makes sense to waste 70% of the proposed toggle suppression window reapplying it?  

 

I've never been saved by Darkest Night.  When my Miasma-ists are mezzed and/or low on health, the priority is Twighlight Grasp to refill 1/3 of my health and then pound candy and teleport out of danger.  There's no way using Darkest Night is going to be more effective than that.  

[Troo]

48 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I've never been saved by Darkest Night.  When my Miasma-ists are mezzed and/or low on health, the priority is Twighlight Grasp to refill 1/3 of my health and then pound candy and teleport out of danger.  There's no way using Darkest Night is going to be more effective than that.  

 

Darkest Night is available beyond Miasma. I do hear what you are saying regarding cast time. But I'll stick with thinking this might be a priority.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Troo

[Wavicle]

The more dramatic ones I can think of are Hurricane and Entangling Aura.

[Omega-202]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Darkest Night is available beyond Miasma. I do hear what you are saying regarding cast time. But I'll stick with thinking this might be a priority.

It's only available outside of Miasma on armored ATs with mez protection (Brute, Tank, Sentinel, Soldier, Widow).  Its a distinction without a difference because (a) armored ATs barely need to care about this change because they rarely ever get mezzed and (b) have way more survival tools, most of which are way better.  If Darkest Night is your best survival answer on a Brute, Tank, Sent or VEAT, then you built a terrible character.  

 

I'm not trying to argue with you on this one, but its objectively a bad choice to prioritize DN over almost anything else in most build's tool kits.  

[Omega-202]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The more dramatic ones I can think of are Hurricane and Entangling Aura.

These two may be a plausible priority.  The instant chance to cc are decent effects, but on the flip side, both sets also have solid alternatives.  A short back hop + Gale or Thunderclap can substitute for retoggling Hurricane.  Bastion or Growth are active options for Nature that can be more useful in a pinch, especially considering the unreliability of EA.  50% chance to hold minions, 40% for LTs, 0% of bosses is not something I'd always prioritize.  

[Myrmidon]

10 hours ago, MadCow99 said:

Speaking as a really bad player that won't notice my toggles are down until a half hour later, I love this change.

 

But I frequently admit that I'm in no way an ideal player, I couldn't min-max if I tried, and my optimized gameplay is a 54 Studebaker in need of a tune up.

As the more experienced will easily adapt to these changes, it’s the opinion of players like you that matter the most.

[Wavicle]

Basically, if they make the suppression period shorter than the animations of most such toggles (anything between 1 and 3 seconds), then this isn't just a buff but a HUGE buff. It is not intended, I don't think, to be a huge buff but instead to be a slight buff and a QoL change, which it is.

[Grouchybeast]

On 8/7/2022 at 7:16 PM, MadCow99 said:

Speaking as a really bad player that won't notice my toggles are down until a half hour later, I love this change.

 

This is me, basically.  The suppression period would probably need to be about a minute before it stopped being an average buff for me.

[Omega-202]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Basically, if they make the suppression period shorter than the animations of most such toggles (anything between 1 and 3 seconds), then this isn't just a buff but a HUGE buff. It is not intended, I don't think, to be a huge buff but instead to be a slight buff and a QoL change, which it is.

Exactly.  

 

Especially when the most common culprits that MIGHT be considered a priority when coming out of a CC are all 2-3 animations.  

 

Taking my own advice from a few posts up, I went through Luminara's list, picked out all of the survivability linked toggles that are on squishies (the only ATs that are likely to even be impacted by this) and checked their animation times.  

 

Arctic Air - 2.244s animation

Beta Decay - 0.924s animation
Choking Cloud - 1.188s animation
Conductive Aura - 2.244s animation

Darkest Night - 3.432s animation

Enervating Field - 1.716s animation
Entangling Aura - 2.244s animation

Force Bubble - 1.32s animation
Hurricane - 2.244s animation

Radiation Infection - 1.716s animation
Repulsion Field - 2.244s animation
Snow Storm - 2.244s animation
Sonic Repulsion - 2.508s animation
Spore Cloud - 3.3s animation 
Time's Juncture - 0.924s animation

Venomous Gas - 2.244s animation
World of Confusion - 1.848s animation

 

So of the squishie defensive toggles impacted, 10 of 17 have a greater than 2 second animation time, and Force Bubble is not really relevant because FF has mez protection.  So at worst, for 2/3 of the impacted powers, you may be losing out on 2.X seconds of effect from those toggles when factoring in the proposed 5 second suppression, but you are gaining 2.X seconds or more, of time to do anything else to survive.  

 

The only potentially reasonable complaints could be coming from /Rad Blasters.  The next most impacted short animating toggles are in Rad Emission and Time Manipulation, both sets with plenty of other options to fill the 5 second gap.  When I play either set, I'm popping my heal first and then reassessing, so retoggling isn't even first choice.  

 

Hell, Rad Emission can barely get all three toggles up in the 5 second window.  

 

If the window was further shortened, this would just be a massive buff to squishies with offensive toggles instead of an amazing QoL change.  

 

EDIT TO REMOVE BLASTER SUSTAINS AND ADD ARCTIC AIR

Edited August 9, 2022 by Omega-202

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

Exactly.  

 

Especially when the most common culprits that MIGHT be considered a priority when coming out of a CC are all 2-3 animations.  

 

Taking my own advice from a few posts up, I went through Luminara's list, picked out all of the survivability linked toggles that are on squishies (the only ATs that are likely to even be impacted by this) and checked their animation times.  

 

Beta Decay - 0.924s animation

Cauterizing Aura - 2.244s animation
Choking Cloud - 1.188s animation
Conductive Aura - 2.244s animation

Darkest Night - 3.432s animation
Dynamo - 2.244s animation

Enervating Field - 1.716s animation
Entangling Aura - 2.244s animation

Force Bubble - 1.32s animation
Hurricane - 2.244s animation

Mud Bath - 2.244s animation

Radiation Infection - 1.716s animation
Repulsion Field - 2.244s animation
Snow Storm - 2.244s animation
Sonic Repulsion - 2.508s animation
Spore Cloud - 3.3s animation 
Time's Juncture - 0.924s animation

Venomous Gas - 2.244s animation
World of Confusion - 1.848s animation

 

So of the squishie defensive toggles impacted, 12 of 19 have a greater than 2 second animation time.  So at worst, you may be losing out on 2.X seconds of effect from those toggles when factoring in the proposed 5 second suppression, but you are gaining 2.X seconds or more, of time to do anything else to survive.  

 

The only potentially reasonable complaints could be coming from /Rad Blasters.  The next most impacted short animating toggles are in Rad Emission and Time Manipulation, both sets with plenty of other options to fill the 5 second gap.  When I play either set, I'm popping my heal first and then reassessing, so retoggling isn't even first choice.  

 

Hell, Rad Emission can barely get all three toggles up in the 5 second window.  

 

If the window was further shortened, this would just be a massive buff to squishies with offensive toggles instead of an amazing QoL change.  

 

if I understood the devs notes correctly then in fact Cauterizing Aura, Dynamo, and Mud Bath (and I think Reaction Time, Frigid Protection, etc) are NOT suppressed by mez. Totally possible that I did misunderstand tho...

Edited August 8, 2022 by Wavicle

[Omega-202]

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

if I understood the devs notes correctly then in fact Cauterizing Aura, Dynamo, and Mud Bath (and I think Reaction Time, Frigid Protection, etc) are NOT suppressed by mez. Totally possible that I did misunderstand tho...

You are correct.  Removed from my overview.