issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[arcane]

5s of suppression sounds way better than having to retoggle. A fine buff, thank you.

[Wavicle]

On 8/13/2022 at 7:52 PM, Luminara said:

That's a nerf, and deliberately misrepresenting people as being short-sighted or unwilling to adapt when they point out that it's a nerf doesn't change the fact that it is a nerf.

 

Or you could learn to adjust your tactics, because now you can do other things during those first few seconds.

There is no offensive toggle in the game so powerful that it's worth more than that.

[arcane]

Calling this a nerf is honestly hilarious. Revert the whole thing and let toggles drop again if you’re so intent on sinking a buff. I’ll take the generous buff but will be fine either way.

[WindDemon21]

11 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

Or you could learn to adjust your tactics, because now you can do other things during those first few seconds.

There is no offensive toggle in the game so powerful that it's worth more than that.

Having to change your tactics for a change because you can't do what you could before is pretty much the very definition of a nerf.

 

Edit: Again, it's not that *some* combos can't benefit and use that time to their advantage. Controllers probably get the best benefit having control and support powers that should have something usable. But lots of defender/corruptors do not have several attacks more worthwhile than an important toggle, and masterminds almost explicitly get a straight nerf out of this change.

Edited August 15, 2022 by WindDemon21

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Having to change your tactics for a change because you can't do what you could before is pretty much the very definition of a nerf.

No, lol, that is not what a nerf is.

 

That’s just the definition of.. idk.. a change? 
 

A change can be a buff or a nerf. This one is firmly within “obviously a net buff” IMHO.

Edited August 15, 2022 by arcane

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

No, lol, that is not what a nerf is.

*EXACTLY* maybe not, but it basically ends up being the same result in the majority of any nerf even if in a small part.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

*EXACTLY* maybe not, but it basically ends up being the same result in the majority of any nerf even if in a small part.

See edits now 🙂 

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

See edits now 🙂 

Just read edits. And no *just* a change is different. A nerf though is where you're *forced* to change your tactics (which can also mean build change not just movements etc) in order to reclaim similar or next best performance.

[arcane]

Just now, WindDemon21 said:

Just read edits. And no *just* a change is different. A nerf though is where you're *forced* to change your tactics (which can also mean build change not just movements etc) in order to reclaim similar or next best performance.

I would hardly call being forced to change tactics to “now I don’t have to monitor this annoying thing at all” anything but a big fat buff.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, arcane said:

I would hardly call being forced to change tactics to “now I don’t have to monitor this annoying thing at all” anything but a big fat buff.

Oh no don't get me wrong, it *can* mean less micromanagement, and I've been asking for not detoggling when mezzed for a long time. The suppression though is the issue.

 

And as mentioned it does help *some* (minority) combos out, buy at 5 seconds, it is most definitely a nerf to most (even is less *work* of having to retoggle)

 

At the very most I'd say a buff to maybe like a couple combos, neutral to a few and nerf to the majority. 4 seconds (including being able to attack instead) would average much better, though there are still some that this would hurt a good bit.

[arcane]

I disagree that it is a nerf to anyone except for a tiny handful of players with extremely niche and rigid playstyles. It is not a nerf to me on any powerset combo imaginable. And as someone with well over 100 50’s, I’m not forgetting any 🙂 

Edited August 15, 2022 by arcane

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I disagree that it is a nerf to anyone except for a tiny handful of players with extremely niche and rigid playstyles. It is not a nerf to me on any powerset combo imaginable.

Just because some may not *notice* it as a nerf though doesn't mean that it's not. Not caring about something doesn't mean that it didnt occur lol. Otherwise thar could be said of literally anything and a nerf simply *wouldn't exist* if people just lowered their standards for everything instead.

 

I also didn't test specifically and I'm at work atm but do the toggles also still cost end when suppressed/mezzed? Because if they do that's also another detriment with this change is more end costs.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Just because some may not *notice* it as a nerf though doesn't mean that it's not. Not caring about something doesn't mean that it didnt occur lol. Otherwise thar could be said of literally anything and a nerf simply *wouldn't exist* if people just lowered their standards for everything instead.

 

I also didn't test specifically and I'm at work atm but do the toggles also still cost end when suppressed/mezzed? Because if they do that's also another detriment with this change is more end costs.

Likewise, not appreciating the full impact of your time savings by not having to retoggle at all does not mean the impact isn’t there 🙂 

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

Likewise, not appreciating the full impact of your time savings by not having to retoggle at all does not mean the impact isn’t there 🙂 

That is correct, and if you read our posts, including the one I just put before the last, we are including that in our calculations.

 

GIVEN that, still, 5s is too long of a suppression as lots of combos don't have a power more worth the toggle without getting aggro, or may not have that specific power always available when the mez ends either.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

That is correct, and if you read our posts, including the one I just put before the last, we are including that in our calculations.

 

GIVEN that, still, 5s is too long of a suppression as lots of combos don't have a power more worth the toggle without getting aggro, or may not have that specific power always available when the mez ends either.

If 5s is still deemed a net nerf, happy to have devs just revert to offensive toggles just dropping like on live. I’ll live without another sizable buff - game is pretty easy.

[Wavicle]

"Instead of detoggling, this power now re-activates automatically after escaping a mez. Activation time is increased by 1.5-3.5 seconds, but you may move and activate other powers during this time."

I'll take that nerf on just about any power in the game.

[Marshal_General]

Do they reactivate at once or one at a time? If it us one at a tine, can we influence the sequence by the order we place them on our bar?

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Do they reactivate at once or one at a time? If it us one at a tine, can we influence the sequence by the order we place them on our bar?

 

They all come back on at once.

[kingsmidgens]

On 8/15/2022 at 10:28 AM, arcane said:

If 5s is still deemed a net nerf, happy to have devs just revert to offensive toggles just dropping like on live. I’ll live without another sizable buff - game is pretty easy.

I also think this is the best solution.

If a "change" can't be beneficial because "power creep" in a minority of cases, I feel like that change shouldn't be made at all.  Most powersets with an applicable toggle have one (useful) toggle and waiting longer than that to reach your strength is bad, even if it means needing to miss an offensive attack or two so to me you're making a lot of characters worse, which is changing the game for the worse.

I tend to play in a group so individual damage is not as important to me as getting that taunt or debuff activated ASAP.  When I'm not in a group I -really, really- want that survival back ASAP.


There was no consideration like this made, as far as I know, when toggle suppression was first introduced.  Just: All your survival toggles have no effect when CC'd but they come right back afterwards.  Prior to that you had to manually activate each and every one, and a lot had longer animations than they do now too.  Talk about power creep when a Defender suddenly didn't have to sit there for 10s reactivating Leadership when they got grazed by a sleep - This current change is a 180 in terms of design from what improved the game over the years.

[JAMMan0000]

I thought this only affected generally 'offensive' toggles. Currently purely 'defensive' toggles do not drop when mezzed. I know some 'offensive' toggles have defensive components to them. So I understood those were going to get affected by this. But, I didnt think this had any affect on purely 'defensive' or 'survival' toggles. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, I think the overall benefit of having the 'offensive' toggles suspend for 5s tends to outweigh a little extra wait time compared to the ideal response time of manually restoring them. In the heat of battle I am watching a lot of different things and my response time to notice and restore the 'offensive' toggles is probably not ideal. So in a practical scenario the 5s suspension is probably little real loss of restoration time and quite possibly and improvement. But, if suspension is also going to affect all of my 'defensive' toggles that don't currently drop at all, then that seems like a significant net loss that I would not be in favor of.

 

With that said, I did copy a couple of toons over to beta and tried them out on different heavy mezzing group (e.g. Carnies, COT) and yes I like this change. Maybe not perfect, but way more convenient.

[Shocktacular]

22 minutes ago, JAMMan0000 said:

I thought this only affected generally 'offensive' toggles. Currently purely 'defensive' toggles do not drop when mezzed. I know some 'offensive' toggles have defensive components to them. So I understood those were going to get affected by this. But, I didnt think this had any affect on purely 'defensive' or 'survival' toggles. Am I understanding that correctly?

The 'survival' toggles most people are talking about here are either mezzing toggles like Choking Cloud or -ToHit or -Dmg toggles that slow down the rate at which enemies hurt you.  Both of these types of toggles are affected by the proposed changes.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Shocktacular

[Peacemoon]

I haven’t been able to test this, apologies. But what happens visually while the toggles are suppressed?

 

For example, radiation infection and enervating field - do the mobs still look debuffed even though the toggle is suppressed, or do the visuals hide during that time? 
 

I think it’s important that offensive toggles are only visible when they are having their impact, otherwise it is going to be confusing to players (both the casters and others) when mobs appear debuffed but aren’t.

 

Some other feedback: my Rad Defender will normally recast toggles straight away if he’s been mezzed in order to help survivability. So if the toggles have already been down for x seconds while he was mezzed, the quick recharge means he can usually recast them straight away. 

I don’t think toggles need a delay to come back on. They are already suppressed while you are mezzed - once you regain controller of your character I’m struggling to see why they should still be suppressed. It seems illogical and confusing.
 

I don’t see this as a QoL issue, it is a balance issue. Offensive toggles should either just drop, or be suppressed; I don’t think there is much middle ground here that will be satisfactory. 

[Myrmidon]

Kheldians being able to shift into all forms without dropping toggles in human form makes this all worth it.

[golstat2003]

On 8/15/2022 at 11:28 AM, arcane said:

If 5s is still deemed a net nerf, happy to have devs just revert to offensive toggles just dropping like on live. I’ll live without another sizable buff - game is pretty easy.

 

I never cared about toggles dropping honestly. I just retoggled when it happened.

[dtj714]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:24 AM, Myrmidon said:

Kheldians being able to shift into all forms without dropping toggles in human form makes this all worth it.

No, it doesn’t. I love khelds so much they are all I play, but I understand one ATs buff /= justify another ATs nerf. 
 

Look, nobody has a problem with the suspension change, because there is no downside. The suppression change, on the other hand, has a downside. Some people with certain builds, limited though they may be, lose both time and agency in terms of getting back up what they believe are critical toggles.

 

These two things are not intrinsically bound together. There’s no reason suspension can’t be implemented unless suppression is too. We still have no dev feedback indicating 5s turns out to play like they wanted, or even explaining why they chose 5s as the adjustment from 8. They just did it without providing any rationale. Because there is a downside it’s a balance issue, and that’s not how a balance discussion should work.