issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[skoryy]

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

Or FCM's suggestion... If the excessive Emp-to-RM conversion issue is really the main source of concern, either adjust the exchange rate or remove that option.

 

 

 

 

But now you're affecting players getting vet levels by other means.  That's not the problem.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, skoryy said:

 

Nah, I wouldn't remove one of the more awesome maps in AE for that.  It makes a great final boss stage, for starters.

 

Indeed.

Removing maps would be a sad thing.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

 

But now you're affecting players getting vet levels by other means.  That's not the problem.

 

Also true. 

 

It's not an easy problem to solve without hitting somebody other than the AFKs.

[TrelNargil]

   Ok, to ease some of the semi-tension here, how about this whacked idea...

   Move all the AE's to a high end PvP zone (not RV though, as that is only for lvl 50 characters), and if folks want to farm to their heart's content, they can still do so... with the caveat that they may be jumped by some PvP'ers before they ever reach AE in the first place. This way it "may" solve or at least ease two problems currently in CoH. One being "some" folks want PvP to be a bit more active generally speaking, and two, if you want the choice rewards in AE, your gonna have to go out on a limb to get it maybe. After all, many PvE builds will get slaughtered in a PvP environment (and vice versa), so as the old saying goes...

   "If you want the fruit off the tree, sometimes you gotta go out on a limb". 😄 Heck, for S&G's, you could have lots of NPC's all standing around AE, protesting their hearts out, all saying the following lol. Now wouldn't that be fun? lol...

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by TrelNargil
This was just for funs sake folks, it's not meant to be serious lol.

[Bionic_Flea]

5 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Suggestion:  Has anyone compared XP/Inf on a certain AE on live and Brainstorm?  I'd like to see some data points as to how big the difference is.

Taking my own suggestion, I ran one of Brigg's Comic Con maps (#11612), which limits you to level 49 with 53 as +4 to you.

 

LIVE:

EB   is 102,531 XP/128,164 Inf

Boss is 51,265 XP/64,081 Inf

LT   is 17,088 XP/20,504 Inf

Min is 8,544 XP/5,979 Inf

 

BRAINSTORM

EB   is 0 XP/87,311 Inf

Boss is 0 XP/45,686 Inf

LT   is 0 XP/13,644 Inf

Min is 0 XP/4,255 Inf

 

NOTE: The influence amounts can go back up if the author edits his critters to give them more powers to hit 100%

 

I'll run some more and add them here.  Feel free to run your favorite maps and post as well.

 

Edit 1.

I also ran Flea's Fictional Farm Fairy Tale (#9092) at level 54, which has standard 5th Column enemies in the first mission.  The influence was identical to Brigg's map for both live and on test.  (Boss 64,081/LT 20,048/Min 5,979).  No EB was tested as I don't have one in that mission.

 

Edit 2.

Since @Vayek chimed in, I ran his Night at the Movies: Killer Carnies from Space (#14685)

 

His live numbers are exactly the same as Briggs and mine, but for Brainstorm it's:

BRAINSTORM

EB   is 0 XP/98,344 Inf

Boss is 0 XP/46,577 Inf

LT   is 0 XP/12,550 Inf

Min is 0 XP/5979 Inf

 

So Vayek's minions are fine but his EB, Boss, and Lts. still need adjusting.

 

I also ran Heather Townsend for a benchmark. 

 

LIVE AND BRAINSTORM

EB   is unknown

Boss is 76,897 XP/64,081 Inf

LT   is 25,632 XP/20,504 Inf

Min is 12,816 XP/5,979 Inf

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[Marbing]

18 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

NOTE: The influence amounts can go back up if the author edits his critters to give them more powers to hit 100%

This, yes. Those changes have made a difference and will affect older farms that haven't been updated. It is a key point to bring up so there is no confusion.

 

 

EDIT: I plan on updating my farm later tonight, and testing, I can send you or anyone the info on it once I am done so you can test before and after with a farm you know has been adjusted for 100% xp. Unless someone else has one they would like to share. Sharing is caring after all.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Marbing

[Coyotedancer]

 

Which map did you test, Flea? I'll hop into a different one. 

 

ETA: Ah. I see. You did Comicon. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Coyotedancer]

Okay, just a quick and casual bit of playing around with Ossuni, my 'Zen Mode' farmer, on Cult's "Fire City" (#17655 on Live, and the first arc that comes up in a search for his creator name on Beta-) map....

 

 

Live
=====
Minion- 5979 Inf
Lt- 20,504 Inf
Boss- 64,081 Inf

Beta
=====
Minion- 5977 Inf
Lt- 15,070 Inf
Boss- 45,007 Inf

 

I have XP turned off for Sunni, so that's unchanged for her regardless. 

 

It looks like Cult could bring his goons up to their old value with a little tinkering. His Minions are already basically fine as they are. I suspect that's about what we'll see for a lot of these. 

 

Rewards aside... At least on that big, open ruined city map the new aggro thing is actually a bonus. It was a whole lot easier to gather neighboring groups. I didn't even have to use Sunni's ball lightening to get their attention. They just tossed a few fireballs at her and then started wandering over all on tier own. 

 

I think I love it. 👍

 

She did end up taking a little more damage than she tends to on Live at the moment, but it doesn't seem to be more than her build can handle, which also pleases me. It'll be fun to see how Harry handles it. (He's my "speed farmer", whose build gives up some safety for MOAR DAMAGE. He's more fragile than Sunni is, so the extra aggro may bite him a little harder.)

[Coyotedancer]

I'm curious how farmers doing our thing "ran off" everyone else.... It's not like our fire demons and cosplayers are invading your story arcs and setting your roleplay team on fire. 😆

Edited July 16, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Lazarillo]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

I'm curious how farmers doing our thing "ran off" eveyrone else.... It's not like our fire demons and cosplayers are invading your story arcs and setting your roleplay team on fire. 😆

It's not the farmers than ran people out of AE.  It was the Homecoming team nerfing AE rewards across the board as a punitive (and ultimately useless) measure against farmers.

Trust me, you won't find many people much more anti-farm than me, but this is one spot I don't hold against that crowd.

 

They need to revert reward values and just turn MARTy back on.  Simply decide was is (un)acceptable and set that as a hard limit.

[skoryy]

4 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

In that case I recommend turning off the leveling system entirely.  People don't need to progress past level 1 to see any particular story being told.

 

So, basically, all that content should be good for is dings and nothing but dings?

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, Starforge said:

I wonder how level 1s would fare against my custom Beam Rifle/Willpower AVs lol.

 

It would end in sorrow. 😆

[Lazarillo]

Just now, skoryy said:

So, basically, all that content should be good for is dings and nothing but dings?

Content should be equally rewarding across the board.  If I were to go through AE and find an arc that's as well-written as Operation: World Wide Red, I shouldn't have to settle for it being less rewarding simply because it was player-created content.  If all people care about is RP for RP's sake, then they don't need the gameplay rewards (and if they do need the gameplay rewards, they shouldn't be disincentivized to RPing their gameplay by getting half/no progress depending on content level).

[Chronicler J]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

 ...simply because it was player-created content...

 

The crux of the issue. The most important tool the game has, and yet those who wish to utilize it for the right reasons must suffer. There are better ways to do this than shutting off XP at 50. They require effort, however. 

[skoryy]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

Content should be equally rewarding across the board.  If I were to go through AE and find an arc that's as well-written as Operation: World Wide Red, I shouldn't have to settle for it being less rewarding simply because it was player-created content.  If all people care about is RP for RP's sake, then they don't need the gameplay rewards (and if they do need the gameplay rewards, they shouldn't be disincentivized to RPing their gameplay by getting half/no progress depending on content level).

 

You're valuing rewards above actual story value.   Not everyone does, and a healthy game shouldn't.   The other MMOs I play - GW2, FFXIV, STO - aren't nearly as bountiful with the rewards like CoH yet I and others still keep coming back.  OK, for the fashion wars, sure, but also for the story.

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, Chronicler J said:

 

 those who wish to utilize it for the right reasons must suffer.  

Can I ask for a definition of this please?

[brattycommissar2]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Content should be equally rewarding across the board.  If I were to go through AE and find an arc that's as well-written as Operation: World Wide Red, I shouldn't have to settle for it being less rewarding simply because it was player-created content.  If all people care about is RP for RP's sake, then they don't need the gameplay rewards (and if they do need the gameplay rewards, they shouldn't be disincentivized to RPing their gameplay by getting half/no progress depending on content level).

this- likewise, to nip the 'well dev choice arcs' thing, not all good story arcs become those, because a lot of arcs are made for the moment and then taken down since they're part of an active rp storyline, not something that's for people to do whenever, or any myriad other reasons like just not demanding the devs go through every arc to see if they think 'this is an arc people shouldn't be punished for playing by depriving them of rewards they'd otherwise be getting'

[Lazarillo]

Just now, skoryy said:

You're valuing rewards above actual story value. 

I am saying they should be valued equally.  A good story in AE should be equally rewarding to a good story in the game's basic content.  And vice-versa.

It comes back to the point of disincentivization.  The dev team actively discourages playing AE for story content, relative to playing the rest of the game for story content.  And they don't do this out of anything against AE story content (as far as we know), they do it because they simply don't care, as much as they care about slowing down farming.  It's simply acceptable collateral.

[skoryy]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I am saying they should be valued equally.

 

Which is why you're 100% focused on the rewards.  If they should be valued equally, then why should @Starforge run his RP missions at level 1?  Again: If a story's good, it will get played for the story.

 

I went to AE on Everlasting to do a quick check to see how many fire farms crowded the menu and was surprised at that there were more than a few non-farms in the Hall of Fame.  Story stuff is is still being played in AE, obviously the diminishing rewards haven't been that much of a disincentive.  And again, all that's being removed is vet levels.

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

The dev team actively discourages playing AE for story content, relative to playing the rest of the game for story content.

They simply don't actively discourage anything of the kind.  AE story content, however well crafted, is ancillary to the full game, and that's where their full focus is.  And it's where it should be.

 

As someone who uses the AE to find story arcs of all kinds, any disincentive I see comes from wading through the metric tonne of crap farms that swamp everything else.  And no, I'm not hammering farms as a thing here but for every "bad SFMA arc" in the AE there's probably 20 times the amount of bad or simply abandoned farms.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

If they should be valued equally, then why should @Starforge run his RP missions at level 1?

Because he made the claim that no rewards was irrelevant if he was able to RP with SG.

 

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

Again: If a story's good, it will get played for the story.

And if two stories are equally good, what's the line between them?

[Saikochoro]

3 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

Being honest here, I don't think they want input outside of "it works" and/or "it's great! we love it!"  From what I've seen here, whatever changes they make are going live whether we want them or not.  The time to discuss with the community for feedback on ideas is before any lines of code are written, not after.  But they don't even do that much.  It's their game so they're going to change it however they want.  Nothing wrong with that of course, just saying it might be better to get different opinions beforehand in the future to better guide direction.   

 

 

Totally hilarious that you're arguing against circular arguments using a circular argument yourself.  Oh the irony!  LOL!  🤣

I used to vehemently disagree with this statement. However, I have to say I now agree based on experiences in beta and whatnot in the last couple years. 

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, Darmian said:

They simply don't actively discourage anything of the kind.  AE story content, however well crafted, is ancillary to the full game, and that's where their full focus is.  And it's where it should be.

They cut rewards in half and will be turning off character progress after hitting 50.  How is that anything but discouraging its use?

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

Which is why you're 100% focused on the rewards.  If they should be valued equally, then why should @Starforge run his RP missions at level 1?  Again: If a story's good, it will get played for the story.

 

I went to AE on Everlasting to do a quick check to see how many fire farms crowded the menu and was surprised at that there were more than a few non-farms in the Hall of Fame.  Story stuff is is still being played in AE, obviously the diminishing rewards haven't been that much of a disincentive.  And again, all that's being removed is vet levels.

Apart from a few grandfathered in, all the Dev Choice winners automatically get booted to the HOF.  And that's good. Farms get there from hitting 999+ plays.  Frankly I'd kill that dead.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

They cut rewards in half and will be turning off character progress after hitting 50.  How is that anything but discouraging its use?

Well, we're at cross purposes here then, and never the twain shall meet.  AE content outside of Dev Choices never gave equal rewards to in world story arcs. Character progress after 50? What's being "lost" is the bumps from Vet levels, something that was an anomaly being in the AE in the first place.