Masterminds have wanted changes for years now.

[Black Zot]

Changing the name of the power does jack shit.  It's the NUMBERS that are the problem, and the patch does nothing to address those.

 

- Tier 1-2 pets are still worthless against anything that cons higher than yellow to the player.

 

- Mercs still hit like wet noodles even before you consider their reliance on the most-resisted damage type in the game.

 

MMOs are, ultimately, about numbers.  Literally nothing else is relevant if the raw numbers aren't there to make it count.  These patch notes are less than a joke.

[arcane]

51 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

- Tier 1-2 pets are still worthless against anything that cons higher than yellow to the player.

Extreme exaggeration considering how good Masterminds are at soloing level 54 AV’s and so on. We need non-hyperbole here people.

[The_Warpact]

Considering "balance" is brought up alot. How balanced are mercs/ninja compared to demons for example?

They aren't, I can damn near take demons with any secondary and solo just about anything. 

Mercs or ninja nope not going to happen. I run a merc/Traps in RWZ, and it's a slog trying to do what necro, bots, or demons can do.( I didn't mention thugs since I have zero experience using them)

 

 

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Black Zot said:

Changing the name of the power does jack shit.  It's the NUMBERS that are the problem, and the patch does nothing to address those.

 

- Tier 1-2 pets are still worthless against anything that cons higher than yellow to the player.

 

- Mercs still hit like wet noodles even before you consider their reliance on the most-resisted damage type in the game.

 

MMOs are, ultimately, about numbers.  Literally nothing else is relevant if the raw numbers aren't there to make it count.  These patch notes are less than a joke.

The powers weren't renamed. They were fixed to give the correct powers the set was supposed to be using and apparently isn't. That's not a name change. They also sped up the DoT's duration. So the affected attacks with the sped up DoTs will do damage faster, at the same rate as players now. The sped up DoT at least is a NUMBERS fix. (Capitalization used to mirror yours.)

 

Aside from that? The devs working on the update are probably focused on the Beta Feedback forum where they asked for feedback on the changes being tested. So they are far less likely to be reading this forum to see what players may be unhappy with in the update.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Considering "balance" is brought up alot. How balanced are mercs/ninja compared to demons for example?

They aren't, I can damn near take demons with any secondary and solo just about anything. 

Mercs or ninja nope not going to happen. I run a merc/Traps in RWZ, and it's a slog trying to do what necro, bots, or demons can do.( I didn't mention thugs since I have zero experience using them)

 

 

Odd. I don't have any problems soloing anything with my ninja MM. That is actually my preferred MM, the one I use when I want to make sure I have no problems dealing with whatever comes up. I hate the demons set, specifically for the gargoyles. I'm out of my mind bored most of the time playing my bots, and not because they are easy mode. My ninja MM outperforms my bots MM hands down. I just find bots and necromancy boring.

 

My point being, your comment is a matter of personal preference and play style. Just like mine is. If you want to buff ninjas for some reason? I won't complain.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove "though" from end of last statement.

[eldriyth]

On 7/21/2022 at 12:02 AM, Rudra said:

It may not address the problem with Mercenaries, but it is a valid excuse. Volunteer as in volunteer team devoting their free time is a good reason. With the stack of improvements and content they have provided? It's impressive what they did. And they have an entire community to appease. And lots of old bugs from Live to fix.

 

I'm confused by this. Did the devs say they were going to work on this and get it done any time soon? (I haven't heard anything like that.)

 

I don't find Mercenaries painful to play. And I've played every MM primary set. Further, how are new players forced into any specific concepts or have their choices reduced? They have all the same choices as back on Live, and a few more.

 

I am not aware of any new players being told not play Mercenaries. And Mercenaries as a primary does not struggle any more than any other MM primary set I have tried in any of the content I have tried with them.

 

It is things being re-engineered that made Knock Down possible with a higher magnitude than .9. It is things being re-engineered that got players the increased difficulty challenge settings on some TFs/SFs that they have been asking for "for years".

 

Further, Mercenaries got looked at and updated in this upcoming Page 4. There is an entry in the patch notes speciifcally about Mercenaries and the changes to their powers that were made. Have you tested these new changes? Do you know if they changed or improved Mercenaries as a power set? Because so far your comments make it seem like you haven't bothered reading the patch notes.

Regardless if it's "Volunteer" or "Paid Staff" the dev team is all over the place with zero direction right now. Direction is the #1 killer or successor of any project. You can use that as a quote. I give thee permission to do so.

[Glacier Peak]

9 minutes ago, eldriyth said:

Regardless if it's "Volunteer" or "Paid Staff" the dev team is all over the place with zero direction right now. Direction is the #1 killer or successor of any project. You can use that as a quote. I give thee permission to do so.

It's not "IF" - it IS a volunteer staff and they work on whatever they feel like. You can suggest ideas until your fingers give out, but if there isn't any interest from the developers in implementing your ideas, they are as good as dead on arrival. 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, eldriyth said:

Regardless if it's "Volunteer" or "Paid Staff" the dev team is all over the place with zero direction right now. Direction is the #1 killer or successor of any project. You can use that as a quote. I give thee permission to do so.

You didn’t get YOUR preferred changes =/= directionless.

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

You didn’t get YOUR preferred changes =/= directionless.

Exactly. I absolutely love and adore MM's; they're probably my most played AT. And while I would adore seeing changes for them, I like and appreciate the HC staff's approach to handling the game and I can only presume how much more difficult MM's might be to balance as an AT compared to the others. The buffs they've made so far have helped out quite a bit, and mercs are still playable despite being the lowest damage primary. We're not paying to play here; the staff are a team of volunteers. If they don't want to make a pass on MM's yet, they don't have to. For those like OP that unhappy about it, you're welcome to head off to one of the other server groups, or phrase your suggestions in a more polite manner.

[eldriyth]

10 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

It's not "IF" - it IS a volunteer staff and they work on whatever they feel like. You can suggest ideas until your fingers give out, but if there isn't any interest from the developers in implementing your ideas, they are as good as dead on arrival. 

All development teams on this earth would go no where if people continued to just kiss their ass all day like you, Tyger, and Arcane. The devs are lucky to have people like me and a few others on here. We let them know things can be better with tough love and interest in the project, not just "go with the flow" and accept everything given to us. That is not saying they don't do a good job and we hate everything they have released either. If I had no interest or hope in Homecoming I wouldn't even care to post on here.

Edited July 25, 2022 by eldriyth

[Rudra]

This thread started as a rant because a desired change was not yet implemented. And this thread continues to get weirder. 🤣

[Clave Dark 5]

To try and keep this on track, I've been wondering anyway: has anyone actually gone over to beta and played the revamped Mercs MM yet?  How's it play now?

[Rudra]

I've asked the individuals commenting that Mercs still need a buff if they have tried it on beta yet a few times. (Edit: Or to at least give it a try.) Still no response.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add 'a few times".

[Black Zot]

The "changes" don't actually change anything.  Mercs still get the same powers with the same nonexistent damage, just in a different order.

 

Again, until the raw numbers get boosted, nothing else you do matters.  The onus is on the "yay" side to demonstrate something has actually been gained, and you haven't even tried.  The best you can offer is to wave the holy book of "Trust the Devs" in everyone's face and demand we prove a negative.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Black Zot

[TygerDarkstorm]

11 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

To try and keep this on track, I've been wondering anyway: has anyone actually gone over to beta and played the revamped Mercs MM yet?  How's it play now?

Ya know, this is one of the few changes I haven't messed with on beta yet. I'm not a pro at these sort of things compared to others, so I'm not sure how to go about comparing the beta changes to live (my only mercs MM on live is only level 38), but I'll fire one up and see how it goes.

 

Also, calling those of us providing criticism names and insulting the devs and such is a piss poor way to hope your point will be heard, let alone listened to. If you really hate what the devs are doing, you're free to leave or phrase your feedback in a more constructive manner. We don't pay to play here. 

 

I'm aware that Mercs need help, but I can also think critically and acknowledge that perhaps just "boosting the raw numbers" is not the answer. MM's as a whole are in a pretty decent place right now given the changes to summoning and buffing our henchmen. While not ideal, Mercs are not unplayable, and I do watch in the patch notes where it looks like the dev team has been making small passes at Mercs to bring them more in-line. I'm okay with this; sometimes big sweeping changes are not the answer, and I'm okay with them taking the cautious route to making changes to an AT that can easily become OP since all our damage is dealt via henchmen.

[TygerDarkstorm]

14 hours ago, Rudra said:

I've asked the individuals commenting that Mercs still need a buff if they have tried it on beta yet a few times. (Edit: Or to at least give it a try.) Still no response.

So I recreated my mercs/traps MM on beta, bumped her to level 40 since my live one is level 38. Now, initially I slotted the beta version with IO sets and ran a radio mission before remembering that my MM isn't set up like that on live, so of course they felt like they were performing better. So I changed it to basic IO's like I usually run with when leveling and then ran another radio mission. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they still pretty much feel the same. Playing at +0/x6 against CoT; had a moment where henchies died against a spawn, but I was able to resummon them and rebuff them mid combat without losing them again and keeping my own health up. Since I am not an in depth powers person, I am not too sure what swapping the upgrades did and how it might affect low level play, but I'm hoping it's a step the dev team is making towards taking a further look at mercs and MM's in general.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

So I recreated my mercs/traps MM on beta, bumped her to level 40 since my live one is level 38. Now, initially I slotted the beta version with IO sets and ran a radio mission before remembering that my MM isn't set up like that on live, so of course they felt like they were performing better. So I changed it to basic IO's like I usually run with when leveling and then ran another radio mission. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they still pretty much feel the same. Playing at +0/x6 against CoT; had a moment where henchies died against a spawn, but I was able to resummon them and rebuff them mid combat without losing them again and keeping my own health up. Since I am not an in depth powers person, I am not too sure what swapping the upgrades did and how it might affect low level play, but I'm hoping it's a step the dev team is making towards taking a further look at mercs and MM's in general.

Thank you for trying it.

[TygerDarkstorm]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Thank you for trying it.

Yep; I've noticed that some of the people crying the loudest about the beta changes are those who haven't actually logged onto beta to try things for themselves, which I find silly and counterproductive. Every change in beta isn't perfect, of course, but some things are hard to argue and cry about without actually getting on Brainstorm and trying them. I definitely can see the difference in animation times for mercs, they no longer feel sluggish that way, but I'm not educated enough to hazard whether the swapping of the upgrades is a buff or not.

Edit: Ah, I see now the upgrades thing was just a bug fix. Here's to hoping the team plans to take a proper look at MM's and the underperforming sets in the near future.

Edited July 25, 2022 by TygerDarkstorm

[Zeraphia]

Maybe... just maybe...

 

A huge update for an entire archetype is a huge deal, with a lot of balancing going into it, and a huge amount of dev time? It has to take into essence what the point of the AT really was supposed to originally do without changing so many of the functions that make it unrecognizable to people who liked the previous version.

 

Is it sad that MM's aren't getting the changes many of us could be desiring? Absolutely. Does that mean we should be demanding that they produce them and create a rushed product out of player expectations to "get it done?" Absolutely not. Not to mention, this is an absolutely free to play in every single literal sense game made possible by donations and volunteers. 

 

There's tons of changes I'd love to see too, but I would never get "mad" at the devs for not implementing a single one of them because it is after all, a FREE game made possible by VOLUNTEERS. 

 

Edit: I think there are much better avenues of getting to your goal (to see the MM buff) than starting this kind of thread in the suggestions board. You could politely message a staff member and ask them if the MM changes are shelved/postponed, you could ask people on other forums what changes they believe might help MM's so that the devs can take a look at that feedback and take it into consideration. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Zeraphia

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:

I mean that is what I just do instead, just place any MM ideas on Thunderspy since MMs are actually viable over there. Meanwhile on Rebirth the Guardian is a interesting replacement for Sentinel, kind of unfortunate that Sentinel is just this outlier AT that will neither be buffed nor QoL'd. I say this as someone who uses Dual Pistol/Regen Sentinel w/ all T4 even at peak it is trash in certain spots or lacking a reason in others. Despite this, I play it regularly out of enjoyment but MMs? Dunno I wish to try bots but I'm kind of scared for the obvious reasons, not good enough or etc. 

Sentinels are another AT that really needs some love, perhaps almost moreso than MM's. I like them, but agree with those who feel they lack an identity and something is off with their inherent.

 

Regarding MM's though, I've never been to T-Spy, but MM's here on HC are in a good spot. They can be competitive, they can be extremely tanky, they can be devastating (my Demons/Storm rips mobs apart), they can shred pylons if that's your thing. Sure, they need some tweaking (some of the penalties they suffer seem outdated), and some sets perform better than others, which is pretty typical of any AT, but overall, I'd argue they play far better than a sentinel; and frankly, this is the game of "play what you want." Unless you manage to make some pretty poor decisions on a team (e.g., don't contribute, don't monitor your henchmen, etc.), you're fine and no one is going to complain.  The HC team gave MM's a pretty nice buff by lowering the cast times of summons and buffs and drastically reducing how much end they need--this makes summoning and rebuffing in combat sooooooo much better, as well as making it so that when we do have to do this, we're not practically out of end.

 

Bots is one of the top 3 primaries, though there's some debate whether it's worth giving the assault bot his first upgrade since he knocks things out of his fire patch. This can be worked around by sacrificing a slot to a KB->KD IO and/or picking a secondary like nature that provides hold auras. Bots/Traps is still considered a top AV killer for MM's thanks to the -res the pair can push out. My Bots/Nature MM is fun as well and surprisingly synergistic.

 

Ultimately, not every AT is for every player. 🙂 Some people will never jive with MM's and that's okay.

 

People having criticisms/concerns isn't an issue; it's how they go about addressing it that is. Which has ultimately been my main point regarding the OP. I know saying "just leave" isn't super productive, but at the end of the day, if you're going to bash everyone around you, then clearly this server group doesn't seem to offer what you want and there are others out there that might have it. Being okay with how the HC team handles changes to the game shouldn't make some of us "ass kissers" simply because we understand that making these changes is hard and needs to be thought out (and I'm personally more in favor of smaller, incremental changes than big sweeping ones). There is an open beta for a reason--instead of shouting at the devs and players that we're all stupid or whatever, the best thing you can do is jump on beta and start testing the changes you're most interested in and then providing your feedback. That's what I have been doing. I figure my feedback as a noobish/average player is just as valuable for a different perspective as the min/maxer type folks; and in areas of changes I don't quite understand, I try my best to read the comments from everyone carefully and like the posts that make sense to me. So, after being on beta Mercs might still be the worst MM primary, but the small changes that have been made so far *are* noticeable--imo, the animation change was a great start and is something you can actually see and feel in game, but yes, ultimately the merc patch notes are just bug fixes and they still play pretty much the same as they do on live. But it was worth jumping on and comparing to my live mercs MM to see if perhaps the bug fixes were a bit of a sleeper buff or something--we can't know if it's good or bad if people don't jump in beta and actually try it out.

 

Sorry. TL;DR: I completely understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. It's okay that the OP is upset Mercs/MM's didn't get any significant changes; what's not okay is their attitude/approach to the matter and insulting everyone trying to provide them with discussion and altering viewpoints. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

6 minutes ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:

I mean I get this, it's no different than similar comments about Battlefield 4 gamers where really good ones will say "git gud" but at WHAT exactly? Should I use these weapon attachments, should I enage at these ranges, could I burst fire here or flank there, etc. Understanding with clarify other than just these statements of "lul we dont want you here" or "git gud" are usually unfounded ones. 

Yes, that's why I admitted it was a poor choice of words to use. Dissenting opinions are necessary for growth, but it is important that they be given constructively and with respect, or the person/people you're trying to reach will not hear it, let alone take it into consideration. I should have rephrased it so that this was the more important aspect, followed by, if you choose to remain that unhappy about it and not give constructive feedback, then you are welcome to find another server group that fits your needs. That's the beauty of playing this game in its current format--we're not paying any of these dev teams, they cannot hold us hostage, etc. Sometimes, the best way to show your vote/opinion is to withhold your money, or, in this case, leave to another server group because your opinions were disrespected entirely (assuming you were polite in the first place).

[Rudra]

What it boils down to is the author decided to rant about not getting a change (s)he wanted. On 2 different threads. This thread is the second, and the only one of the two the author originated. For the sole purpose of bashing the devs for not doing what (s)he wanted.

 

While this is the Suggestions and Feedback forum, and that does count as feedback, the surest way to make sure the people you are trying to persuade ignore you is to open with an attack. And as far as I can tell, the author did so without even trying the changes. @TygerDarkstorm is the only person on this thread I am aware of that has actually tried the changes. And (s)he has said that while it is not sufficient to make Mercenaries on par with the other MM primaries, it is an improvement.

 

I don't know anything about Thunderspy. Never played there. The only thing I could find about MMs over there though is pet customizations and a tweaked stay command that keeps the pets from moving from where they are. Neither of which does anything for what the OP or some other posters are screaming for. If Thunderspy does anything else? I didn't see it on a quick Google search. So I am clueless as to why you prefer to play MMs over there. It's your choice, and if you enjoy it, more power to you. I just have no reference for it.

 

That said, MMs rock here. Unless I'm getting swamped with high damage AoEs, nothing in the game can kill my MMs. Mercenaries I have to be a little more careful with, but that is because I went with /Traps and I lack an actual heal for my pets. Missions where my blasters, corruptors, scrappers, or even stalkers just curl up and die from the opposition? My MMs are eating the same opposition. So where is the driving need for MMs to be tweaked? Sentinels need the attention more. The remaining bugs from Live need the attention more. I don't believe I'm saying this since I hate PvP, but PvP needs the attention more.

 

And on top of all that? We have a group of unpaid volunteers dedicating their free time to fixing and improving this game. I don't know their work schedules. I don't know their family lives. I don't need to know either. They are giving up their personal free time to keep this game alive and try to make it better. And the OP is "Nah, you need to do what I want and meet my demands or you're a bunch of slackasses." Followed by the sentiment of "I don't need or want to test the proposed changes. I automatically know they are bad because it is not what I want to see happen. And I'm not even going to bother with providing feedback on the changes where they were asked for despite the devs still working on the update." That is what is driving a lot of the comments on this thread.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove duplicate wording.

[Rudra]

I don't bother with reddit, so yeah, definitely not reddit savvy.

[TygerDarkstorm]

8 hours ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:

The thing, is I personally dunno what you do here; as anything is usually going to result in one camp just exiting the game, effectively splintering the player bases. As for the volunteering section thread (and that thread is full) for the take of contributions; we don't even know who is actually getting in on the dev team versus who is actually doing the review processes+getting accepted/figuring out the rest of the systems (mind you that still takes time off the game alone!) over who would work on it versus who isn't. Mind you they don't have to tell us, etc.

 

They may just flat out refuse to give the numbers of personel/staff on the game. I've never personally seen this done for a video game to this extent before maybe on some off linked-in profiles but usually you could know how many are on staff either from some website listing profile -- a public one. For example Valhiem staff was mainly 5 people, 1 person taken off to recruit is usually a process of 6-12 months, so that's 4 people on the game, 1 getting the new person on the dev team, teaching the systems, signing a contract, etc.

 

However, I can see them still not being official yet or whatever being a legit reason why many things on feedback/suggestions aren't being priorities quickly enough. Perhaps waiting for a better opportunity to turn this from a hobbyist maintenance job to something concurrent enough to be self funded and still have more members work on various things. There are worser forums for games that exist though where almost all suggests are rejected/ignored/removed. lool

 

That said, idc what they do mind you, I do however check in with this game and whatever updates follow and yes check the beta server too!

I'm not sure if there is perhaps a language barrier happening here, but all I have said that for those wishing to provide feedback, to do so in a constructive manner. The OP is having a temper tantrum.

 

I don't *do* anything here; I am one of hundreds of players on the HC servers. I don't have any authority, if that's what you're implying, nor am I trying to. However, that doesn't mean I don't understand what types of communications are going to get a better reaction from the devs and fellow players.

 

Your response makes very little sense to me. Rudra reiterated my point rather nicely, so I will leave it there and not respond any further since it seems we don't really understand each other and that's okay. 

 

Final Say: Making suggestions and giving feedback is totally fine, even if it is criticism. What's not okay is name-calling and bashing and having a tantrum because something you wanted didn't get implemented in the current patch on beta. Post in a respectful manner and you're more likely to have your opinion heard.

 

MM's on HC are largely in a good spot and need very little tweaking compared to other things happening in the game. Sure, there's changes I'd like to see, but I acknowledge there's other things that could use more attention.

 

If you have not personally jumped on beta and tested the changes the devs are making, you have very little room to complain, let alone make demands of an unpaid, entirely volunteer dev team.

[Rudra]

There is no way for me to obviously identify anyone's gender through text. I don't know who Chef Ramsey is. I don't know what Chef Ramsey does other than cook (since, you know, chef). And no one is playing victim here. Just letting you know that throwing a tantrum won't get you what you want.

 

You created a thread that has no suggestion to cry about not getting the change for MMs that you wanted. You did so in a hostile manner. The fact you can't deal with people telling you there is a much better way to be heard, like giving feedback on the beta response thread to ask for Mercenary damage to be increased in addition to the already being tested changes, is something no one here can help you with. I'm actually surprised the thread has not been locked yet.