archetype suggestion Archetype Suggestion: The Duo

[Ry]

I wont lie, when I saw the JoJo pictures I internally sighed.

 

But once I got past the meme I saw a lot of work put into this AT and honestly? I'd really love to play it. Do I think it could be done with the code? Not entirely sure...? Its always a mystery with this game. However - I do appreciate the work you put into this post. You seem passionate about breathing new life into the system with this concept and I wish you all the best for it. Its a very cool idea and reminiscent of heroes/villains with sidekicks and henchmen, it has a lot of potential.  :)

 

+1

[malonkey1]

I wont lie, when I saw the JoJo pictures I internally sighed.

 

But once I got past the meme I saw a lot of work put into this AT and honestly? I'd really love to play it. Do I think it could be done with the code? Not entirely sure...? Its always a mystery with this game. However - I do appreciate the work you put into this post. You seem passionate about breathing new life into the system with this concept and I wish you all the best for it. Its a very cool idea and reminiscent of heroes/villains with sidekicks and henchmen, it has a lot of potential.  :)

 

+1

 

I added the JoJo picture after I realized that Stand Users are pretty much this Archetype in a nutshell.

 

Once I can get my damn VM up and running I'm going to actually start prototyping it so I can maybe show it to the HC devs eventually.

[jack_nomind]

I still don't love it; I'd rather have a melee/support Marshal without all the extra clicking.  But if you get something running, sign me up for testing.  I can't deny that this is at least interesting.

[Chuckers]

I am definitely NOT a numbers person, so I can't tell about the balance of this AT, but I will say it looks like it could be a lot of fun to play. I love my mastermind, but sometimes 6 pets are a lot to handle (I micromanage my bots big time). I think this would be much more to my liking!

 

+1

 

[Castrum]

I approve of all attempts to make more Pet classes. Plus, this sort of fills an AT niche from comics/TV/etc. Would be nice to have a pet monkey or a robo-helper, kind of a Big Guy & Rusty thing.

[GritIron]

Intially, the name threw me off but i kept and open mind on the idea.  After Reading it, i can say, this looks like it would be a blast to play.

[Coyote]

The AT is a pet class, eldriyth.  There's no other person involved.

 

Also, OP, the formatting is beautiful.  I'm a hard sell on pet classes, but seriously, that's a gorgeous post.

 

+1.

Nice original post.

 

I even think it's a pretty good idea. I had a similar idea for a melee-oriented pet class where you lead several henchmen, and do it with melee attacks and some personal defense, unlike an MM who stays behind the henchmen and uses them to protect himself. Doing it with a single henchman instead of multiple is just as viable, and would focus more on attacking than on being a pet class.

 

For that reason, I prefer my version, just to have a melee-centric pet AT, but I can definitely see this version as being playable and interesting. And I do appreciate the amount of detail and effort put into the suggestion.

[malonkey1]

I added another sample powerset, with something that I think jack_nomind will appreciate. ;)

 

I'm still working on trying to set up the server to prototype on, though. Even with the VM, setting it up is a huge PITA and it's one step forward, two back. The Ouro discord has been a big help, though.

[craggy]

Like the idea of this, and there are a lot of different ways it could work in a character point of view, but it'd definitely need the pet to have a customisable costume.

[Mark Stabler]

I like this idea too would be great to have one pet Partner to edit his/her costume too lol and that they should the same with MM pets lol

[malonkey1]

On 6/15/2019 at 3:13 PM, malonkey1 said:

I added another sample powerset, with something that I think jack_nomind will appreciate. 😉

 

I'm still working on trying to set up the server to prototype on, though. Even with the VM, setting it up is a huge PITA and it's one step forward, two back. The Ouro discord has been a big help, though.

Guess who got his server up and running?

 

 

I'm going to be doing some prototyping on my server, and I'll report back when I can! For now, I'm modifying Dominator power sets while I learn more about making powers, but then I'll actually make a new archetype to test properly. It's probably going to use numbers similar to a Dominator anyway.

 

[Sylvar Panda]

I am not criticizing a very interesting idea, but I do have 2 questions/reservations after reading this.

1) Would the AT be significantly different from dual-boxing a melee (tanker/scrapper/brute) and a defender/corruptor?

2) What about the communal impact on  gameplay? (Since, right now, I can solo as a melee or defender and need to actually team up, and therefore socialize to some extent, if I want support for my usual tank, or a tank for my usual defender. In other words, would this cause the pool of available tankers and healers for grouping to shrink because they'll all be soloing as a dynamic duo? Likewise, would it effect the pool of SK's/Exemplars available for similar reasons?)

 

I would like to see a melee + support AT, much like the Paladin of other games. Currently, I need to use pools for this effect. Usually to the detriment of my AT power choices and slotting.  Which is not to different an experience since most Paladin-type classes are off-tank + off-healer specs in other MMO's.

 

I always wanted to see a bubbler tank or martial artist with the shield generator like the Sky Raider Engineers. Your Duo AT is an interesting solution with the singular more powerful "pet".

 

[malonkey1]

3 hours ago, Sylvar Panda said:

I am not criticizing a very interesting idea, but I do have 2 questions/reservations after reading this.

1) Would the AT be significantly different from dual-boxing a melee (tanker/scrapper/brute) and a defender/corruptor?

Well, yes, in that you are controlling a pet with its own autonomy, like a Mastermind's pets. The one pet from this class is functionally about the same as a T3 MM pet, at the tradeoff of only getting one. You would still get things like Bodyguarding, and you're still just playing one character, so you don't have to worry about slotting out two characters. The big drawback being that you have to be able to manage your pet, because it's a pet, and pet AI is dumb, and you can't just take manual control.

 

Quote

 

2) What about the communal impact on  gameplay? (Since, right now, I can solo as a melee or defender and need to actually team up, and therefore socialize to some extent, if I want support for my usual tank, or a tank for my usual defender. In other words, would this cause the pool of available tankers and healers for grouping to shrink because they'll all be soloing as a dynamic duo? Likewise, would it effect the pool of SK's/Exemplars available for similar reasons?)
 

 

 

I don't think that would be much of a problem, honestly. Sentinels should, in theory, have no need of teams due to being a combo of ranged blasting and defensive powers topped off with an inherent that applies a -DEF and a -RES. But it still works, because it's not actually any stronger than the other ATs on balance. This AT would certainly be flexible, but it wouldn't be able to reach the heights of what a Corruptor or Defender can do to buff, what a Tanker can do to tank, and what a Brute or Scrapper could do to DPS in melee, at the same time. You could certainly rival one of those, but reaching what those other archetypes could do on the level has to be difficult to build for, and come at the cost of letting some of your other abilities remain somewhat underdeveloped.

 

Support-wise, it's supposed to stay at or just under MM levels out of box.

 

DPS-wise, it is just below Tanker alone, but can get close to Scrapper with the Partner at base.

 

Defense-wise, it would be on par with the Sentinel, which is the squishiest of the archetypes with /Defense without specifically building for it.

 

Quote

 

I would like to see a melee + support AT, much like the Paladin of other games. Currently, I need to use pools for this effect. Usually to the detriment of my AT power choices and slotting.  Which is not to different an experience since most Paladin-type classes are off-tank + off-healer specs in other MMO's.

 

I always wanted to see a bubbler tank or martial artist with the shield generator like the Sky Raider Engineers. Your Duo AT is an interesting solution with the singular more powerful "pet".
 

 

 

Yeah, It would be neat to see COH's take on a full-on Scrapfender AT.

 

EDIT:

 

Okay, I've made some headway in getting a working AT on my server to play around with. It crashed when I tried to level up, but it's a start. Pics below.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by malonkey1

[malonkey1]

I got the archetype working on my server! Now all I have to do is figure out how to modify the powers.

 

And make new powers.

 

And code the inherent power.

 

And then get it working.

 

And then get somebody on the dev team interested.

 

 

But hey, here's a screenshot! It doesn't crash my server when he levels up, the pet works (although I can't seem to give it inspirations, which i suspect is built into the MM's inherent), and this guy plays a lot like a scrapper early on, but now that he has a heal, I think he's going to start playing differently. Probably going to tune the damage down because he is a little steamrolly, but I'll have to test him into later levels to see.

[Varkarrus]

Really impressive! I've been looking into doing this for some of my stuff, but I haven't been able to even get the source compiled yet... 😞

[malonkey1]

2 hours ago, Varkarrus said:

Really impressive! I've been looking into doing this for some of my stuff, but I haven't been able to even get the source compiled yet... 😞

I used a precompiled version that Ouroboros provides.

 

Instructions here.

If you want to make custom content, you'll also need to set up your server to make bins (instructions here, you may need to get a login on the Ouroboros discord.)

[justicebeliever]

8 hours ago, malonkey1 said:

I got the archetype working on my server! Now all I have to do is figure out how to modify the powers.

 

And make new powers.

 

And code the inherent power.

 

And then get it working.

 

And then get somebody on the dev team interested.

 

 

 

 

But hey, here's a screenshot! It doesn't crash my server when he levels up, the pet works (although I can't seem to give it inspirations, which i suspect is built into the MM's inherent), and this guy plays a lot like a scrapper early on, but now that he has a heal, I think he's going to start playing differently. Probably going to tune the damage down because he is a little steamrolly, but I'll have to test him into later levels to see.

Hat's off to you on this.  I've been really hoping people with real skills (my skills are all fake and imaginary...for example, I am imagining this is adding value right now)..people with real skills will just start running with their passion projects and have the Dev's open this up more as a real community server...Great start

[Zepp]

I may have to do that for my Zoomer once I finish putting together the eight books I have to finish by Tuesday, and editing another two, and updating three websites, and updating an app...

Edited July 28, 2019 by Zepp
stupid default font

[Varkarrus]

35 minutes ago, malonkey1 said:

I used a precompiled version that Ouroboros provides.

 

Instructions here.

If you want to make custom content, you'll also need to set up your server to make bins (instructions here, you may need to get a login on the Ouroboros discord.)

 

Oh! Good to know. I assumed I'd need to be able to edit the source itself to make custom content. Certainly for some of the things I want to try doing (i.e: goliath defense), I'd need to do that.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Varkarrus

[jack_nomind]

9 hours ago, malonkey1 said:

I got the archetype working on my server! Now all I have to do is figure out how to modify the powers.

 

And make new powers.

 

And code the inherent power.

 

And then get it working.

 

And then get somebody on the dev team interested.

Excellent work!  Changing the powers bin file isn't too difficult; ourodev lists what the bin files compile and the def format works relatively easily as a template.

There are other people in the community who've done more with custom powers -- asking for a bit of guidance on the HC Discord or one of the other ones might give you someone who has experience doing custom powersets.

Edited July 28, 2019 by jack_nomind

[malonkey1]

4 hours ago, jack_nomind said:

Excellent work!  Changing the powers bin file isn't too difficult; ourodev lists what the bin files compile and the def format works relatively easily as a template.

There are other people in the community who've done more with custom powers -- asking for a bit of guidance on the HC Discord or one of the other ones might give you someone who has experience doing custom powersets.

Yep, the Ouroboros Discord has been a huge help.

[Demon Shell]

This is certainly a more interesting idea for the "dynamic duo" concept than anything I'd thought up.

 

Criticisms:

Build Up/Follow Up/Rage mechanics are a means to increase DPS via burst (otherwise the AT would just have a higher base damage multiplier). You and your partner using your strongest attacks as openers would emulate that. I don't think the AT should have a Build Up at all.

 

Pet Upgrade powers make more sense on a Mastermind because they aren't as engaging of a playstyle. Ultimately on Masterminds, upgrades wind up being a punishment for letting your pets die (as you now need to reupgrade them after resummoning them). As this is meant to be a more engaging AT, I don't think Duo should have the kind of micromanaging that upgrade powers create.

 

Suggestions:

Though the AT is called Duo, I don't think it should get it's pet until level 6. That would a) give you time to learn to fight on your own, b) give you an iconic level 6 power, c) make more sense as your pet is no longer stronger than you when first acquired.

 

Modify the summoned entity into multiple versions separated by level thresholds (like a Villain Group) so it has more powers when summoned at a higher level (because it's technically a different version of the pet). This would allow your pet to get stronger as you progress and eliminate pet upgrades.

 

In place of a pet upgrade, what about forced coordinated strikes? For example, in place of a pet upgrade, Duo SS has a version of Thunderclap that sends out a short-range pet upgrade-like signal that puts a hold on your pet (to stop them from queuing up anything else), but instead of them playing one of the different hold animations, makes them perform the Thunderclap animation as well while creating a PBAoE around them, emulating the attack. The result would be, you Thunderclap and your partner stops what they're doing to Thunderclap as well if they're in range. You Burst of Speed, and your partner Bursts of Speed next to you.

 

More attacks of varying types, to offer more options for engaging (to replace the build up/pet upgrades being dropped).

[malonkey1]

6 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

This is certainly a more interesting idea for the "dynamic duo" concept than anything I'd thought up.

 

Criticisms:

Build Up/Follow Up/Rage mechanics are a means to increase DPS via burst (otherwise the AT would just have a higher base damage multiplier). You and your partner using your strongest attacks as openers would emulate that. I don't think the AT should have a Build Up at all.

 

Pet Upgrade powers make more sense on a Mastermind because they aren't as engaging of a playstyle. Ultimately on Masterminds, upgrades wind up being a punishment for letting your pets die (as you now need to reupgrade them after resummoning them). As this is meant to be a more engaging AT, I don't think Duo should have the kind of micromanaging that upgrade powers create.

Both valid points.

 

Suggestions:

Though the AT is called Duo, I don't think it should get it's pet until level 6. That would a) give you time to learn to fight on your own, b) give you an iconic level 6 power, c) make more sense as your pet is no longer stronger than you when first acquired.

I don't know if i agree with that. Every other archetype gives you the ability to do what your AT is supposed to be all about from the start. Doms always start with an attack and a control, MMs can choose to get their first pet from level 1 (they can choose an attack instead, but that's just silly), Tankers get a defense power and their T1 attack, etc. etc.

 

To not allow this AT to have a pet from level 1 would really push back at the idea that every archetype has access to their "core thing" from the get-go.

 

Modify the summoned entity into multiple versions separated by level thresholds (like a Villain Group) so it has more powers when summoned at a higher level (because it's technically a different version of the pet). This would allow your pet to get stronger as you progress and eliminate pet upgrades.

 

That shouldn't be too hard to do code-wise. Just put in a power redirect to another, hidden power based on level that summons a different version of the pet.

 

In place of a pet upgrade, what about forced coordinated strikes? For example, in place of a pet upgrade, Duo SS has a version of Thunderclap that sends out a short-range pet upgrade-like signal that puts a hold on your pet (to stop them from queuing up anything else), but instead of them playing one of the different hold animations, makes them perform the Thunderclap animation as well while creating a PBAoE around them, emulating the attack. The result would be, you Thunderclap and your partner stops what they're doing to Thunderclap as well if they're in range. You Burst of Speed, and your partner Bursts of Speed next to you.

 

More attacks of varying types, to offer more options for engaging (to replace the build up/pet upgrades being dropped).

 

That might be trickier. I might be able to use the tech from Smoke Flash in the Ninjas MM set to pull off something similar, though. Hm...

[Demon Shell]

11 hours ago, malonkey1 said:

I don't know if i agree with that. Every other archetype gives you the ability to do what your AT is supposed to be all about from the start. Doms always start with an attack and a control, MMs can choose to get their first pet from level 1 (they can choose an attack instead, but that's just silly), Tankers get a defense power and their T1 attack, etc. etc.

 

To not allow this AT to have a pet from level 1 would really push back at the idea that every archetype has access to their "core thing" from the get-go.

Your call, obviously, but interesting that you'd bring this up. It relates to a criticism/suggestion I thought of, but didn't ultimately comment on.

 

Going back to your examples, based on the powers they have available at level 1, a Dom is a CCer with attacks. MMs are a Pet AT with Support. Tankers are Armored Attackers and by reversing the pools, Scrappers are Attackers with Armor.

 

So what is Duo based on it's level 1 picks? A Pet class with Armor.

 

If that's by design, that's fine. But for a Duo, two people fighting together, I don't think the pet summon should be in the Primary. If it is to be available at level 1, I think it should be the T1 Secondary. This would give you an attack and a pet right away. This specific combination offers clear indication how this AT is meant to be played, aggressively with your partner (and if you so choose, would even if you the opportunity to pick a melee or ranged attack as your first Primary pick). Additionally, if you have a pet, you don't need an armor toggle immediately anyway.

 

Conceptually, it's a dramatic departure. But mechanically, it makes more sense. It also opens up the AT to more varied Duo combinations. You and your pet can fight similarly, or you can have radically different combat styles. You can Fastball Special any pet. Going back to what I previously proposed, you Thunderclap and your companion, as a sign of comradory and a personal connection to you, has learned how to emulate the effect to also Thunderclap, even if it's not normally a part of their powerset.

[Yoru-hime]

This is a neat idea. It's a permanent sidekick, really.

 

Thematically, I'd love to be able to uncouple the master and pupil powers. It's the same problem I have with Mastermind where if I want the Whip, I HAVE to have demons, and vice versa. And I'll add my voice to the chorus where this would really, REALLY benefit from pet customization to make both members of the team distinctive and unique. Neither of these are easy or exclusive to your suggested AT, of course.

 

One question that I'm not sure you've addressed is Partner survivability and death. What are the thoughts on how squishy a Partner should be when the going gets tough? In a bind, losing half your functional power is going to turn a bad situation worse in a hurry.  MMs are somewhat protected from this by the sheer volume of pets, but the Duo is going to be faced with whatever killed the Partner coming after them, leaving them forced to choose between trying to fight it off alone or trying to get the Partner recast in a hurry.

 

A squishy partner means that there's a high chance that the Duo is going to be spending time fighting solo when things get rough. On the other hand, if the Partner is tougher than the Master to kill, it encourages the Master to hang back instead of fighting alongside it.

 

A suggestion could be that the death of the Partner triggers an ST Vengeance-like effect for a short time. Filled with rage at the abuse their pupil has taken, the master rises to occasion to punish the transgressor. Care would have to be taken to avoid intentional abuse of the power (and the Partner), but it might prevent any Partner death from turning into an immediate character death.