Wormhole vs. Fold Space Rant

[Cidri]

I won't complain about Wormhole's ability to stun. It has a really slow animation for a Controller AoE stun, but it doesn't announce what it is doing and the stun effect is not bad. (Tip - a Stun Grenade will enhance any AoE stun a lot).

 

But I am complaining about the weak teleport in Wormhole, especially compared to Fold Space. Fold Space can be taken at level 14 in a power pool. Wormhole can be taken at level 26 in a main power set. Yes, Wormhole does more than teleport, has range, and a faster recharge. But it is also the signature power of the Gravity Control set - what really marks you as different than other controllers.

 

Where this shows is at higher levels of difficulty. Fold Space has no issues teleporting a +3 boss. Wormhole simply can't do this.

 

The problem with this is that it is easy to not use wormhole to actually teleport. So you give up, make a bind for "power_execute_location target" and basically forget Wormhole teleports at all. And that is a huge loss to the style Gravity Control set - in my opinion Wormhole is the signature power of the set. Yes, it is also distinguished by high damage, and some may consider Propel the signature power of the set, but TBH, Propel is not all that great.

 

So please, either increase the magnitude of Wormhole's teleportation to match or exceed Fold Space, or nerf fold space so that it doesn't outshine Wormhole. And nerfing is to be avoided, so I suggest the buff to Wormhole.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Cidri

[roleki]

I still use Wormhole like I always have; the existence of a better, more effective Wormhole available to anyone who wants it and earlier than a Gravity controller would get it doesn't change how Wormhole works, how Wormhole has always worked.  Though I will admit it kind of sucks as Fold Space is just one more step down the path of doing away with the attributes that define powersets and ATs in general, and just gives people another reason not to roll a Controller or a Dominator, but hey, them's the breaks. 

I look forward to the day when a Tank can bring a mob to it via Fold Space, cast their own Fulcrum Shift, deploy their own Phantom Army, then dial up a Gang War.  Where we're going, we won't need teams, we'll just need tanks.  Tanks tanks tanks as far as the eye can see.   City of Tanks.  You don't like tanking?  Shut up and steer your tank.  And if you even think of stepping a foot into AE with that tank, it better be to Fold Space and slingshot people out of the lobby and into an ITF.

[Carnifax]

Wormhole certainly needs the ability to teleport +3 bosses. And reducing the animation time would be nice too 

 

It's very annoying tping most of a group into my Trick Arrow death patch but the bosses stay put. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Wormhole should have enough mag to teleport a +4 AV.

 

Get 3 max level gravity control toons to hold hands and cast wormhole at the same time should be enough mag to TP Magisterium Tyrant to Pluto.

[Uun]

Looking at CoD, Wormhole and Fold Space have the exact same Teleport magnitude (+410%). Not sure why they would work differently on +3 or +4 bosses. Not aware of any factions that have TP resistance.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

Looking at CoD, Wormhole and Fold Space have the exact same Teleport magnitude (+410%). Not sure why they would work differently on +3 or +4 bosses. Not aware of any factions that have TP resistance.

 

Level shift and Ultimates help a lot.

[oedipus_tex]

I am fine with Fold Space mainly because Gravity Controllers can also take Fold Space for more port action. The two powers do somewhat different things, one ports a group from point A to point B, the other TPs everything to the caster's feet.

 

Fixing the teleport mag in Wormhole has come up a few times. IIRC as of last we got word, its something the team may be interested in, but it's not an easy fix. The risk IIRC is players being able to teleport things that will break the game if TPed. 

[Cidri]

6 hours ago, Uun said:

Looking at CoD, Wormhole and Fold Space have the exact same Teleport magnitude (+410%). Not sure why they would work differently on +3 or +4 bosses. Not aware of any factions that have TP resistance.

Practical experience shows that Fold Space is much stronger than Wormhole in what it can teleport. With both powers on the same team at +4, Wormhole always failed to teleport anyone and Fold Space always succeeded.

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, Cidri said:

Practical experience shows that Fold Space is much stronger than Wormhole in what it can teleport. With both powers on the same team at +4, Wormhole always failed to teleport anyone and Fold Space always succeeded.

 

 

Are you sure Wormhole didn't just miss? It should be able to teleport anything Fold Space can. Both powers roll Accuracy. 

A minor advantage Wormhole has over Fold Space is it ignores line of sight. Line of sight is required for Fold Space.

[Toxurion]

I can't speak to the correct balance of the game, however I do agree that Wormhole does feel a bit slow. It's a unique and enjoyable power to use but is often overlooked when playing +4 content. 

 

If the TP cant be touched up, shortening the cast time or the stun delay might be a good compromise.

[Cidri]

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Are you sure Wormhole didn't just miss?

 

Things get stunned, but not teleported.

[Uun]

13 hours ago, Cidri said:

Practical experience shows that Fold Space is much stronger than Wormhole in what it can teleport. With both powers on the same team at +4, Wormhole always failed to teleport anyone and Fold Space always succeeded.

I would /bug this. Make sure you list the faction and level of the targets.

[oedipus_tex]

The only situation I can think of that will prevent a teleport is if the enemy is experiencing a knockback. You cannot teleport enemies mid-kb. One upshot of this if you happen to slot Stupefy: Chance for Knockback in Wormhole, the knock will cancel the teleport. 

 

If you're sure that the enemies aren't being knocked back before the WH cast it would be helpful if you could make a video so we could see what's happening. Wormhole should teleport the same things that Fold Space does.

[Cidri]

Another thing that can prevent teleport is if the mobs have recently been teleported, if I recall. I did check for that.

 

But I have not done serious testing, only played along with someone with Fold Space.

[oedipus_tex]

42 minutes ago, Cidri said:

Another thing that can prevent teleport is if the mobs have recently been teleported, if I recall. I did check for that.

 

But I have not done serious testing, only played along with someone with Fold Space.

 

 

Oh yeah, there's that. Fold Space specifically prevents them from being teleported again for a time after it hits them.

[PainX]

decided to go test on my 47 grav/psi domi im unable to teleport +4 council bosses get minions and leuts sometimes i literally hit a wormhole fully not a single miss and like 6 enemies was standing over there stunned god knows why as for slotting 5x stupefy no proc 1x KB-KD sudden acceleration

 

neither of these can be teleported that last one had me rolling my eyes it's a damn leut anyway this is why i dont play it anymore i dont know fold space but i know wormhole is somewhere between flaky and really bad 

 

[01:11] HIT Vortex Cor Leonis Archon! Your Wormhole power had a 83.81% chance to hit, you rolled a 34.03.
[01:11] HIT Eclipse Warwolf! Your Wormhole power had a 83.81% chance to hit, you rolled a 7.59.

[01:11] HIT Equinox Archon! Your Wormhole power had a 83.81% chance to hit, you rolled a 45.28.

[01:11] HIT Mk I Zenith Warcry! Your Wormhole power had a 83.81 % chance to hit, you rolled a 56.72.

[capricorpse]

I use both powers constantly on my Gravity/Kinetics, because the groupings sometimes favor one over the other.  However I have to cast Gravity Distortion Field immediately on the folded-space group if I want to survive.  The stun and knockdown of Wormhole is fantastic.

 

I agree that the magnitude issue needs to be solved.  However I don't think there is a difference between the two at the moment.  and IIRC the boss issue only happens above level 50.  If you hit with Wormhole at level 35 you should still be moving +4 bosses.   I do think they should make Wormhole stronger and not Fold Space, because as stated above it's absolutely a signature power of the Gravity Set.  Pool powers shouldn't outstrip their near neighbors in AT set. 

[bustacap]

I grabbed fold space on my grav/storm. He isn't build yet (except the big powers 50ish merits during an msr built).

 

So fold space out of league usually ends up as a face plant if I don't do it right (standing in Sing). 

 

Also wasn't there a small team that completed hami starting with wormhole hami out from the mitos?

[Burk]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:34 PM, bustacap said:

Also wasn't there a small team that completed hami starting with wormhole hami out from the mitos?

 

That only works with the weakened Hami in Lady Grey.

 

Also, I don't get why people are saying Fold Space can teleport +3 bosses. By numbers, the mag 4.10 teleport should be limited to +2 bosses (magnitude gets reduced to 2.665 against a +3 and a boss requires mag 3) and this is consistent with my in-game tests. My guess is that people are ignoring their level/incarnate shifts when calculating level difference.

[Dahkness]

On 7/22/2022 at 7:40 AM, roleki said:

Where we're going, we won't need teams, we'll just need tanks.  Tanks tanks tanks as far as the eye can see.   City of Tanks.  You don't like tanking?  Shut up and steer your tank. 

I tank I can I tank I can I tank I can

[Andreah]

I recall there was a very good game design reason why both Fold Space and Wormhole could not be made to teleport anything higher than they can already. I don't remember the details, but it convinced me to stop asking for it.

 

Past that, I too have a Gravity/Kinetics controller who also uses Fold Space, and I have seen no difference in Wormhole and Fold Space Teleport ability. There are nuances that might make it seem so in testing, such as Fold Space being tried first and applying its teleport immunity to those mobs.

[Dahkness]

Just throwing my personal opinion in.
Fold space wins. Just the pacing of it is just so much faster imo. I Click the button once and everything is here next to me. No thought needed.