Positional vs Typed Defense

[Ukase]

So, I like to think I understand the basics of attack mechanics for CoH. But, it's certainly possible I've missed something, or forgotten something. 

My character, for the purpose of this question, has
smashing defense: 48%
Melee defense:  42%. 

Ranged defense: 22%

A ranged attack having smashing damage comes at my character. My understanding has been that the game checks all defenses and uses the highest value. In this case, smashing defense being 48%, the toHit roll uses that value, 48%, rather than the 22%. 

This change is slated to come in the next patch, if nothing changes. 


So, where does this leave our characters? Seems like it checks both positional and typed, but many attacks from npcs tend to have two different types of damage. Sometimes it's cold/smashing, or fire/lethal, or some such. Do we know how this new adjustment will play out? 

I went to the Test server to see if I could sort it out, but my combat log moves too  fast to actually see what's going on. 
So, does anyone know if the combat log can be logged and reviewed after a mission? If not, can someone elaborate on how the characters will handle incoming damage in terms that are a bit more clear for that first bullet point? 

I mean, if it only checks against "up to one", then it seems like it's possible it might not check for any. And if it doesn't check for any defenses, does that mean it's auto-hit? 
I'm trying to sort it out...but I'm too obtuse, I guess. 

[Loc]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I mean, if it only checks against "up to one", then it seems like it's possible it might not check for any. And if it doesn't check for any defenses, does that mean it's auto-hit? 
I'm trying to sort it out...but I'm too obtuse, I guess. 

 

It wouldn't just auto-hit unless it's already an auto-hit power. The way I understand it is that the main difference is that it now looks at the highest dmg type of the enemy instead of your highest defense. Here's an example with the type def:

 

I am 30% smashing def and 10% fire def. The incoming attack does 20 smashing damage and 80 fire damage. In the current system it would check against the highest def I got, smashing (so the hit-check will be against 30% def). However, in the new update it would check against the highest damage of the attack, fire (so the hit-check would be against 10% def).

 

Even if your defense is 0% it still wouldn't auto hit as enemies always have a chance to miss an attack just like we do when we technically have a 100% hit-chance.

[blue4333]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

My character, for the purpose of this question, has
smashing defense: 48%
Melee defense:  42%. 

Ranged defense: 22%

 

Assuming the changes on beta are going live (1% chance of not happening), you should probably remove the smashing defense IO sets and slots and focus on positional defense (ranged and AOE).

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

So, where does this leave our characters? Seems like it checks both positional and typed, but many attacks from npcs tend to have two different types of damage. Sometimes it's cold/smashing, or fire/lethal, or some such. Do we know how this new adjustment will play out? 

 

Typed defenses will probably become useless and less desirable when mobs have full negative/fire/cold etc typed attacks. You can't cheese with just smashing/lethal after the patch drops. Defense is still OP if you go positional and basically ignore the typed hullabaloo but I guess people winning with Scorpion Shield for typed smash/lethal defense was too OP?

 

 

[KaizenSoze]

35 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

 

Assuming the changes on beta are going live (1% chance of not happening), you should probably remove the smashing defense IO sets and slots and focus on positional defense (ranged and AOE).

 

 

Typed defenses will probably become useless and less desirable when mobs have full negative/fire/cold etc typed attacks. You can't cheese with just smashing/lethal after the patch drops. Defense is still OP if you go positional and basically ignore the typed hullabaloo but I guess people winning with Scorpion Shield for typed smash/lethal defense was too OP?

 

 

I think you are overstating the amount of change. Yes, positional defense is now slightly more desirable.

 

The amount of enemies that actually got their attack types changes that will have a noticeable effect is small.

 

Maybe one or two mobs in an entire enemy group got one or two of their attacks changed. More of the nasty groups were already using non-s/l typed attacks.

 

Ones I personally know about from testing or other's testing:

• CoT: Ice thorn casters, minion, Ice sword is now ice/melee, was lethal/cold/melee.
• Council rifleman, minion, ice/fire projectiles are now ice/fire/ranged, was lethal/ice/fire/ranged
• Arachnos Toxic Tarantulas got a big boost due to their main attacks using toxic. Really just brings them into line with the other Arachnos boss.
• Lord Recluse in MLTF got a huge boost, because his attacks are mostly toxic. This is way some toxic/psi defense was added to defense sets in compensation.
• There are plenty more, but you can look at the attack type changes beta thread

Testers are not reporting massive changes in survival due to these changes. I did not run into any road blocks at 4x8 with several toons that was not there before the changes.

A lot of attacks are still s/l, so don't throw out s/l defense.

 

For soloing, I think the aggro rule changes will have a bigger effect.  No more abusing the aggro cap to stand in the middle of three spawns.

[blue4333]

2 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I think you are overstating the amount of change. Yes, positional defense is now slightly more desirable.

 

The amount of enemies that actually got their attack types changes that will have a noticeable effect is small.

 

Maybe one or two mobs in an entire enemy group got one or two of their attacks changed. More of the nasty groups were already using non-s/l typed attacks.

 

Ones I personally know about from testing or other's testing:

• CoT: Ice thorn casters, minion, Ice sword is now ice/melee, was lethal/cold/melee.
• Council rifleman, minion, ice/fire projectiles are now ice/fire/ranged, was lethal/ice/fire/ranged
• Arachnos Toxic Tarantulas got a big boost due to their main attacks using toxic. Really just brings them into line with the other Arachnos boss.
• Lord Recluse in MLTF got a huge boost, because his attacks are mostly toxic. This is way some toxic/psi defense was added to defense sets in compensation.
• There are plenty more, but you can look at the attack type changes beta thread

Testers are not reporting massive changes in survival due to these changes. I did not run into any road blocks at 4x8 with several toons that was not there before the changes.

A lot of attacks are still s/l, so don't throw out s/l defense.

 

For soloing, I think the aggro rule changes will have a bigger effect.  No more abusing the aggro cap to stand in the middle of three spawns.

 

Yes I get that your experience and mileage from defense would differ from my perspective.

 

but one thing that S/L did in the past was to completely negate off the attacks you listed. The value of S/L is not as good as it was now.

 

You'd be better off investing 2 additional slots and changing that Kinetic Combat to Touch of Death or Mako's Bite for positional defense. With the aggro changes, you better start stacking Ranged/AOE defense.

[KaizenSoze]

56 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

Typed defenses will probably become useless and less desirable when mobs have full negative/fire/cold etc typed attacks. You can't cheese with just smashing/lethal after the patch drops. Defense is still OP if you go positional and basically ignore the typed hullabaloo but I guess people winning with Scorpion Shield for typed smash/lethal defense was too OP?

Toons with type defense sets like Energy Aura and Ice are actually going to be bit better due to the toxic/psi improvements.

 

Now, toons without defense sets, like blasters, defenders, dominators, etc...

 

In general I play VEATs (positional defense) and defenders, blasters, controllers, and masterminds.

 

My defenders, blasters, etc... were fine with their existing defenses in my testing.

 

 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Loc said:

 

It wouldn't just auto-hit unless it's already an auto-hit power. The way I understand it is that the main difference is that it now looks at the highest dmg type of the enemy instead of your highest defense. Here's an example with the type def:

 

I am 30% smashing def and 10% fire def. The incoming attack does 20 smashing damage and 80 fire damage. In the current system it would check against the highest def I got, smashing (so the hit-check will be against 30% def). However, in the new update it would check against the highest damage of the attack, fire (so the hit-check would be against 10% def).

 

Even if your defense is 0% it still wouldn't auto hit as enemies always have a chance to miss an attack just like we do when we technically have a 100% hit-chance.

 

So, if my ranged is 22%, and the attack is ranged, fire, despite my having 58% fire defense, the game is using the 22% instead of the fire value of 58%. (in some cases, depending on the attack from the npc) 
Interesting...so I can probably drop some of the fire, and pick up the ranged...somehow. Or, boost the regen. 

The interesting thought for me is this: someone will figure out the proper AT/powerset to continue business as usual. So, what's really the point of the change, once the cat gets out of the bag? 

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Too many varied opinions, and some folks are too emotionally involved right now to have an intelligent conversation. 

[Astralock]

5 minutes ago, Ukase said:

So, if my ranged is 22%, and the attack is ranged, fire, despite my having 58% fire defense, the game is using the 22% instead of the fire value of 58%. (in some cases, depending on the attack from the npc) 
Interesting...so I can probably drop some of the fire, and pick up the ranged...somehow. Or, boost the regen. 

 

No.  Each attack will have both a typed defense and a positional defense to check against.  If an attack is Fire/Ranged, then it'll check both your Fire and Ranged defenses, and go for whichever is higher.  So it would check your 58% fire defense.

 

What is happening before/on Homecoming now is that an attack may be typed both Fire and Lethal, and Ranged.  So it would check all three, and if your Lethal defense was highest, it would go against that.

[Uun]

2 minutes ago, Ukase said:

So, if my ranged is 22%, and the attack is ranged, fire, despite my having 58% fire defense, the game is using the 22% instead of the fire value of 58%. (in some cases, depending on the attack from the npc) 
Interesting...so I can probably drop some of the fire, and pick up the ranged...somehow. Or, boost the regen. 

No, will still check against the 58% fire defense.  Where the change comes in is attacks like Ice Blast. It currently does cold and smashing damage and checks against ranged, smashing and cold defense. After the change it will only do cold damage and only check against ranged and cold defense.

[Loc]

11 minutes ago, Ukase said:

 

So, if my ranged is 22%, and the attack is ranged, fire, despite my having 58% fire defense, the game is using the 22% instead of the fire value of 58%. (in some cases, depending on the attack from the npc) 
Interesting...so I can probably drop some of the fire, and pick up the ranged...somehow. Or, boost the regen. 

The interesting thought for me is this: someone will figure out the proper AT/powerset to continue business as usual. So, what's really the point of the change, once the cat gets out of the bag? 

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Too many varied opinions, and some folks are too emotionally involved right now to have an intelligent conversation. 

 

The update states you have 1 check against a positional and 1 check against a type. So your example would hold if fire was not the main damage of the attack and the other type that is the main source of damage is lower than your 22% ranged. But like others have mentioned this update shouldn't be a huge impact when you actually just play the game. Apparently the devs have also changed some of the outliers that could have a huge impact on this change.

 

For me personally it doesn't matter as I've found that unless you're a tank building for high defense is actually a very inefficient way to play the game. But while I can't speak for the devs, I'm assuming this change was made as it does make a lot more sense. After all, if an attack is nearly all fire damage it's sorta weird that your smashing def can absorb all of that. But technically if you want to build for the best coverage your positionals will mater more now (although even in the old system going for your positionals was a better coverage as well).

Edited August 17, 2022 by Loc

[Uun]

Originally, attacks that did only toxic damage only checked against positional defense. There was no typed toxic defense. Attacks that included some combination of toxic and another damage type only checked against the other type. Defense sets with typed defense didn't include toxic defense (as it didn't exist). They have now added typed toxic defense and attacks will check against it. They have made corresponding changes to defense sets to add toxic defense. I believe Weave and a few other powers still need to have it added.

 

Armor Set Toxic/Psionic Mitigation Changes [Focused Feedback: Toxic/Psionic Mitigation Changes]

• Stalkers:
  • Hide now grants Psionic and Toxic defense.
• Invulnerability:
  • Invincibility (Tanker/Brute/Scrapper) - This power now adds a 1.67% toxic and psionic defense for the first target, and 0.33% for additional targets (total 5% against 10 foes, Tanker values).
  • Invincible (Stalker) - Renamed from "Reinforced". This power now adds 2.5% toxic and psionic defense.
  • Invincible (Sentinel) - This power now adds 2.33% toxic and psionic defense.
• Ice Armor:
  • Wet Ice (all ATs) - This power now adds Psionic and Toxic defense.
  • Energy Absorption (all ATs) - This power now grants Psionic and Toxic defense. Up-front defense increased from 1% to 4.5%. Per-target defense reduced from 0.6% to 0.25% (Tanker values). Total Defense at 10x targets remain the same.
  • Moisture Absorption (Sentinel) - This power now grants Psionic and Toxic defense.
• Energy Aura:
  • Repelling Force (Sentinel) - This power now grants Toxic defense.
  • Energy Drain (all ATs) - This power now grants Toxic and Psionic defense.
  • Overload (all ATs) - This power now grants 33.75% toxic and psionic defense (Brute values).

[Grouchybeast]

/logchat  should toggle logging of your chat window.  There's a way to do it in the UI, too, but I don't remember where off-hand.  All the tohit checks should show up in there.

 

Because this confused the heck out of me in the past: although there's a directory called logs at Homecoming\logs, the chat logs aren't stored there.  They're kept separately under each game account (e.g. Homecoming\accounts\Grouchybeast\logs).

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Toons with type defense sets like Energy Aura and Ice are actually going to be bit better due to the toxic/psi improvements.

 

Now, toons without defense sets, like blasters, defenders, dominators, etc...

 

In general I play VEATs (positional defense) and defenders, blasters, controllers, and masterminds.

 

My defenders, blasters, etc... were fine with their existing defenses in my testing.

 

 

They will still be fine.

 

My blasters, esp. Fire/Time, will not even notice this change. All 50's going forward will just build for Ranged and call it a day, unless it's poison. Then build for Melee I guess? Still tempted to just slap Ranged DEF on it too and call it a day.

 

I take these changes as: You now don't objectively HAVE to take Scorp Shield. Now it's just a choice, and you can still be survivable to everything.

[Marshal_General]

Is it either or? Does an attack choose the best between positional and typed or does it test against positional and then typed.

 

Either way I know I am going to get hit.

 

Minion has a 95% chance to miss you. It rolled a 99.6. Take your damage bitch! 🤕

[Erratic1]

33 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

Is it either or? Does an attack choose the best between positional and typed or does it test against positional and then typed.

 

Either way I know I am going to get hit.

 

Minion has a 95% chance to miss you. It rolled a 99.6. Take your damage bitch! 🤕

 

As I understand it currently if an attack has multiple damage components then the highest defense you have against ANY of those components applies to the entire attack (i.e., all of typed defenses are checked along with the positional typing with the highest of any of your typed defenses applying to the entirety of the attack). This means that multiple damage type attacks are at a disadvantage because while you might be unlucky and have low typed defense to one type if the other component of the attack applied to a higher typed defense you have that results in a greater chance of the entire not fitting through.

 

The change does not impact positional versus type checks at all. The wording "up to one" is meaningless as goes positional since no attacks come at you with multiple positional components (e.g. a ranged/melee attack). The key word which keeps getting missed is "and": The attack typing on all NPC attacks have been revamped to only check against up to one Positional defense and up to one Type defense.

 

Since most protective sets only boost one flavor of protection (resistance, typed defense, or positional defense) the system as it currently is does not matter too much to people relying on positional defenses--the big thing they are checking is position, not damage type. Hybrid protection powersets and IOs throw a wrinkle in this because both give you some protection in all three realms.  A character using Super Reflexes, a positional defense set, isn't going to care too much about the change most likely. Someone using Energy Aura, a typed defense set, stands to be a bit more concerned.

 

 

Edit: Checking the Feedback thread, the phrasing in the post I see is: The attack typing on all NPC attacks have been revamped to only utilize a total of two defense types: Positional & Primary Damage

 

Again, both position and damage type are checked but the word "primary" makes it clear what the change is. They also give an example:

 

• EXAMPLE: Previously, attacks checked for defense typings of any damage types involved in the attack. For example, most Ice Blast attacks are  Cold/Smashing and when checked against a player's defenses, it would look at both Cold and Smashing defenses and use whichever was highest.

After this adjustment, an attack will only target the defense of the attack's highest damage type. Using the aforementioned Ice Blast, those attacks will now only target Cold defense, even though they have a Smashing component, as Cold is the majority damage in those attacks.

 

Mind you, the example is only looking at the impact to Typed defense because there is no impact to the positional portion of how attacks are resolved. As Ice Blast is a ranged attack, it will check Ranged defense as well.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Erratic1

[SwitchFade]

16 hours ago, blue4333 said:

 

Assuming the changes on beta are going live (1% chance of not happening), you should probably remove the smashing defense IO sets and slots and focus on positional defense (ranged and AOE).

 

 

Typed defenses will probably become useless and less desirable when mobs have full negative/fire/cold etc typed attacks. You can't cheese with just smashing/lethal after the patch drops. Defense is still OP if you go positional and basically ignore the typed hullabaloo but I guess people winning with Scorpion Shield for typed smash/lethal defense was too OP?

 

 

My defense against hyperbole is overcap. You missed.

[TheMoncrief]

23 hours ago, Uun said:

No, will still check against the 58% fire defense.  Where the change comes in is attacks like Ice Blast. It currently does cold and smashing damage and checks against ranged, smashing and cold defense. After the change it will only do cold damage and only check against ranged and cold defense.

Wait, it only does cold damage, or only checks cold defense? There is a non-trivial difference, as resistance based sets like Electric Armor are not getting any coverage for their weaknesses (Toxic in the case of Elec) and having all Toxic attacks be 100% Toxic damage is a non-trivial nerf to sets that already have some issues.

[tsdouble]

21 minutes ago, TheMoncrief said:

Wait, it only does cold damage, or only checks cold defense? There is a non-trivial difference, as resistance based sets like Electric Armor are not getting any coverage for their weaknesses (Toxic in the case of Elec) and having all Toxic attacks be 100% Toxic damage is a non-trivial nerf to sets that already have some issues.

This only changes what is used to determine if an attack hits or misses; if it misses hits, the attack does every type of damage it is tagged for, adjusted for your resists to that type of damage.

Edited August 18, 2022 by tsdouble

[ZemX]

21 minutes ago, TheMoncrief said:

Wait, it only does cold damage, or only checks cold defense? There is a non-trivial difference, as resistance based sets like Electric Armor are not getting any coverage for their weaknesses (Toxic in the case of Elec) and having all Toxic attacks be 100% Toxic damage is a non-trivial nerf to sets that already have some issues.

 

It's only the defense check that was changed for most things.  There are a few adjustments to actual damage listed in the patch notes but not to Ice Blast:

Quote

• Various grenade/explosive powers that were formerly Lethal/Smashing have been set to Fire/Lethal instead.
• Enemy Energy Melee was previously 40%/60% Energy/Smashing, it is now 60%/40% Energy/Smashing and targets Energy defense.

 

[LiquidBandage]

These changes just mean I will be pushing my Sonic Res & Thermal Rad characters more often.

[blue4333]

20 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

My defense against hyperbole is overcap. You missed.

How is it hyberbole?

 

After the new patch:

1) You can't just build S/L Defense and ignore mixed type attacks like you can before

2) Aggro changes ensure mobs will still attack you even if you are against aggro cap. Given 16(?) mobs is the max, additional mobs would only be able to fire off ranged attacks if the 16 taunted are still collapsing on you for their melee. Hence, range defence's importance will be increased.

 

Nice try being snarky.

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, blue4333 said:

How is it hyberbole?

 

After the new patch:

1) You can't just build S/L Defense and ignore mixed type attacks like you can before

2) Aggro changes ensure mobs will still attack you even if you are against aggro cap. Given 16(?) mobs is the max, additional mobs would only be able to fire off ranged attacks if the 16 taunted are still collapsing on you for their melee. Hence, range defence's importance will be increased.

 

Nice try being snarky.

Great job missing the punch line.

 

Whatever becomes you though... That's your business 😃

[espectro]

11 hours ago, ZemX said:

It's only the defense check that was changed for most things.

For most things? So it varies basically according to enemy groups?

[blue4333]

10 minutes ago, espectro said:

For most things? So it varies basically according to enemy groups?

 

The posts in beta stated that enemy groups/NPCS attacks were all shifted to one elemental type (e.g. Smashing/Negative/Fire) and a positional tag (Ranged/Melee/AOE).

 

No justification released from the devs yet. But at this point, I think the patch is ready to go live soon anyways.

[Hyperstrike]

On 8/17/2022 at 6:04 AM, Ukase said:

So, I like to think I understand the basics of attack mechanics for CoH. But, it's certainly possible I've missed something, or forgotten something. 

My character, for the purpose of this question, has
smashing defense: 48%
Melee defense:  42%. 

Ranged defense: 22%

A ranged attack having smashing damage comes at my character. My understanding has been that the game checks all defenses and uses the highest value. In this case, smashing defense being 48%, the toHit roll uses that value, 48%, rather than the 22%. 

This change is slated to come in the next patch, if nothing changes. 


So, where does this leave our characters? Seems like it checks both positional and typed, but many attacks from npcs tend to have two different types of damage. Sometimes it's cold/smashing, or fire/lethal, or some such. Do we know how this new adjustment will play out? 

I went to the Test server to see if I could sort it out, but my combat log moves too  fast to actually see what's going on. 
So, does anyone know if the combat log can be logged and reviewed after a mission? If not, can someone elaborate on how the characters will handle incoming damage in terms that are a bit more clear for that first bullet point? 

I mean, if it only checks against "up to one", then it seems like it's possible it might not check for any. And if it doesn't check for any defenses, does that mean it's auto-hit? 
I'm trying to sort it out...but I'm too obtuse, I guess. 

Essentially every incoming attack type has both positional (Melee, Ranged, AoE) *AND* Typed (S/L/E/N/F/C/T/Psi).

When determining if an attack hits, you use the HIGHEST available value you have.

If you're 40% S/L and 45% AoE, and an S/L-AoE attack comes in, your Defense is factored at 45%.

If your Ranged/Psi Defense is 10%/25%, and a Ranged/Psi attack, or an AoE/Psi attack comes in, (and your AoE is lower than 25%, you use your Psi Defense value.