Scrapper Tier Lists

[PeregrineFalcon]

In my experience Willpower is one of the tougher sets for a Scrapper. Not as good as a fully built SR or Shield, but definitely head and shoulders above Regen.

 

On top of that there's no endurance issues, no need to pick up Aid Self, a taunt aura to keep victims enemies from fleeing, and no constant clicking of heals or being interrupted by a mez click set on auto fire.

 

It's my go to for Scrapper armor unless I have a specific theme in mind. And it should definitely be at least where Invuln is, if not 1 tier higher.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, TheMoncrief said:

I get why Willpower isn't at the top - it's not that tough on a Scrapper, and doesn't do much to enhance damage output either. Still seems wrong to lump it at the bottom with /Regen. /WP is significantly tougher than /Regen, in my experience.

 

It does fall apart in the face of debuffs, though. Which might be why it does so poorly in the tier list - debuffs are not uncommon in high end content.

 

I'd say one of the reasons it's down on the list, is it seems one either builds for defense or one builds for offense when it comes to WP.  Building for both can be a bit difficult outside of a couple Primaries.

[drgantz]

I think that it is unusual that Kat is S while BS is C.  DB is A.  I've read other posts that Kat is better than DB, but I don't understand why DB is so much better than BS.

[SomeGuy]

37 minutes ago, drgantz said:

I think that it is unusual that Kat is S while BS is C.  DB is A.  I've read other posts that Kat is better than DB, but I don't understand why DB is so much better than BS.

 

I personally just try to keep in mind a PERSON made a tier list. And people are biased on their opinions. Everyone's tier-list would be different. I can agree that certain things are considered high and really scratch my head what is as high/low. I personally don't consider some things higher than others on that list, but I can see why someone else would. Although for secondaries I was really wondering why WP was considered so low, because I personally think it's really solid. Is it my jam? Absolutely not. Doesn't mean I consider it bad, let alone in the same realm as regen. Now that is just unfair putting something else in the same category as that.

[Lazarillo]

6 hours ago, TheMoncrief said:

It does fall apart in the face of debuffs, though. Which might be why it does so poorly in the tier list - debuffs are not uncommon in high end content.

Definitely Willpower's big hole.  Although at endgame, one can Ageless one's way through a lot of those.  It's only a band-aid since it doesn't have any sort of base to work with, but I find it works decently on that front, at least.

 

Versus the previously-griped-about Mez hole that other sets have, and WP does not, I feel generally better about WP+Ageless than, say, about Elec or Invuln+Clarion when fighting Knives and Longbow (the latter of which is a lot, because Redside Bestside).

Edited September 22, 2022 by Lazarillo

[Without_Pause]

Tough to knock WP that hard for being bad at debuffs when so many other Resist sets have the same issue. I have yet to find any resist set worthy of being an S tier on any AT. You can talk me into Stone maybe, but that's not fully a Resist based armor.

[BrandX]

9 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Tough to knock WP that hard for being bad at debuffs when so many other Resist sets have the same issue. I have yet to find any resist set worthy of being an S tier on any AT. You can talk me into Stone maybe, but that's not fully a Resist based armor.

 

Maybe, but max resist Dark Armor and max resist Fire Armor on Tankers feels pretty strong 🙂

[Without_Pause]

4 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Maybe, but max resist Dark Armor and max resist Fire Armor on Tankers feels pretty strong 🙂

One of the fastest to faceplant situations I have seen was on one of my /fire brutes, and they weren't using a farming build. I base this off of any map and as high of a diff setting as I can deal with solo.

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

One of the fastest to faceplant situations I have seen was on one of my /fire brutes, and they weren't using a farming build. I base this off of any map and as high of a diff setting as I can deal with solo.

 

Yeah, I will say my max resist Brute, sadly, didn't feel as tough as my max resist Tankers.  Which may be due to the added health and ATO procs.

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

Yeah, I will say my max resist Brute, sadly, didn't feel as tough as my max resist Tankers.  Which may be due to the added health and ATO procs.

 

The HP difference is way more a deal then some people realize. Getting hit for 1200 is way less important when you have 3400 compared to 2400. The resistance caps are the same, so that doesn't matter when you hit 90%...dat HP total though....

 

2400 HP and get hit for 1200? Literally half your HP. 3400 hit for 1200? Still got 2200 left.

 

That also means a difference with HP/s.

Edited September 23, 2022 by SomeGuy

[brasilgringo]

On 8/30/2022 at 5:30 PM, Ratch_ said:

I'm working on something related to this that just isn't quite finished yet...but I have no problem forwarding you the build and chain that was used. I messaged them directly rather than here in hopes of not wanting to derail the original thread too much into a sharing builds topic. If you don't need it sometime this week then I should have something ready in terms of a write up about TW finished relatively soon (looking to be ready sometime next week or the one thereafter) which would cover the build and chain used (as well as hopefully two others).

 

@Ratch_Were you ever able to post this?

Edited September 29, 2022 by brasilgringo

[Gobbledigook]

14 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

The HP difference is way more a deal then some people realize. Getting hit for 1200 is way less important when you have 3400 compared to 2400. The resistance caps are the same, so that doesn't matter when you hit 90%...dat HP total though....

 

2400 HP and get hit for 1200? Literally half your HP. 3400 hit for 1200? Still got 2200 left.

 

That also means a difference with HP/s.

Who has 2400 health when a Tanker with same sets has 3400 health? Scrappers?. The Tanker probably has cap health of 3.5k if Scrapper is capped. But the Tanker is a Tank and not a dps i guess. Brutes have a decent health cap which some sets can reach.

 

There could be an argument to raise Scrapper health cap a little..... maybe.

 

I think some the resists sets should get some +max health like the defence/hybrid sets get also.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[FUBARczar]

On 9/22/2022 at 5:18 AM, Lazarillo said:

Definitely Willpower's big hole.  Although at endgame, one can Ageless one's way through a lot of those.  It's only a band-aid since it doesn't have any sort of base to work with, but I find it works decently on that front, at least.

 

Versus the previously-griped-about Mez hole that other sets have, and WP does not, I feel generally better about WP+Ageless than, say, about Elec or Invuln+Clarion when fighting Knives and Longbow (the latter of which is a lot, because Redside Bestside).

I have always wondered why WP doesn't have Slow resistance.  🤔 

 

I would add slow resistance to indomitable will, raise HPT 2.5% to 10% (for Tankers, adjust other ATs appropriately) resistance to all, increase S/L defense in Heightened Senses to the same as E/N/C/F.  And lastly add additional fear and confuse protection to Strength of Will.

 

That smidge of an improvement would bring WP up just the right amount IMO.  It wouldn't radically change WP in any way, and it would differentiate itself more from other sets, especially Bio.  Most wonderfully, it would increase build flexibility.

Edited September 30, 2022 by FUBARczar
Clarity

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

I have always wondered why WP doesn't have Slow resistance.  🤔 

 

I would add slow resistance to indomitable will, raise HPT 2.5% to 10% (Tanker lvl) resistance to all, increase S/L defense in Heightened Senses to the same as E/N/C/F.  And lastly add additional fear and confuse protection to Strength of Will.

 

That smidge of an improvement would bring WP up just the right amount IMO.  It wouldn't radically change WP in any way, and it would differentiate itself a like more from other sets, especially Bio.  Most wonderfully, it would increase build flexibility.

 

No Slow Resist may be due to it being all toggle/passive except for t9...which I can't recall if it can be effected by -RCH like other powers, since it's recharge can't be enhanced.

[SomeGuy]

15 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Who has 2400 health when a Tanker with same sets has 3400 health? Scrappers?.

 

 

Not sure what you're asking, but yeah. Scraps have a cap of 2400 and tankers 3500. My SD scrappers have 2200 (sets AND accolades for this one), Inv is capped when Dull Pain is active, and Stone Armor scraps can cap out when Earth's Embrace is active, like Inv, too. I'm probably forgetting something, but those stand out.  Scraps CAN cap out at 2400, but most aren't. Same with Brutes being able to cap at around 3200 (I think?) but most won't.

 

I've personally never felt the need to argue for a rise in scrapper HP cap, but that's me. Now a rise in Brute HP BASE? I like Brutes. I feel they need love (especially after the last round of tanker buffs). Maybe a change to their ATO2 that does a heal and increase to their HP max (until cap if that happens). Because the current state of Brute ATO2 is pretty booboo in most people's opinion. Hmm. I'd go out of my way to slot that if so. Currently? I only ever slot it if it is used in the set's 6pc bonus. HP/s is pretty bad in the grand scheme of things.

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Gobbledigook]

5 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

Not sure what you're asking, but yeah. Scraps have a cap of 2400 and tankers 3500. My SD scrappers have 2200 (sets AND accolades for this one), Inv is capped when Dull Pain is active, and Stone Armor scraps can cap out when Earth's Embrace is active, like Inv, too. I'm probably forgetting something, but those stand out.  Scraps CAN cap out at 2400, but most aren't. Same with Brutes being able to cap at around 3200 (I think?) but most won't.

 

I've personally never felt the need to argue for a rise in scrapper HP cap, but that's me. Now a rise in Brute HP BASE? I like Brutes. I feel they need love (especially after the last round of tanker buffs). Maybe a change to their ATO2 that does a heal and increase to their HP max (until cap if that happens). Because the current state of Brute ATO2 is pretty booboo in most people's opinion. Hmm. I'd go out of my way to slot that if so. Currently? I only ever slot it if it is used in the set's 6pc bonus. HP/s is pretty bad in the grand scheme of things.

 

 Yes i saw brutes mentioned above causing the confusion lol.

 

Tankers 3.5k cap, Brutes 3.2k cap i wouldn't think it unreasonable for Scrappers to be 2700 cap or so. But as you say not much of an argument to raise it.

 

 

[FUBARczar]

7 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

No Slow Resist may be due to it being all toggle/passive except for t9...which I can't recall if it can be effected by -RCH like other powers, since it's recharge can't be enhanced.

Yes it's not as necessary because you don't have a heal or some other life line to wait for to recharge. For this reason many skip hasten as well 

 

But Willpower thematically screams slow resist to me.  It also helps with attack speed And movement.

[Max Firepower]

7 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

What is the cap for Sents?  Asking for a friend.  😉

 

 

 

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

Yes it's not as necessary because you don't have a heal or some other life line to wait for to recharge. For this reason many skip hasten as well 

 

But Willpower thematically screams slow resist to me.  It also helps with attack speed And movement.

 

I'm not against the idea of other resists being added into sets.  I'm not sure I agree WP thematically screams slow resist to me, but again, it's not like I'd be against it.

 

I'd rather see the set get more -To-Hit attached to RttC

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, Max Firepower said:

sentinel question

 

 

Mid's says:

 

@Gobbledegook lol woops

Edited September 25, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Blackjoy]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:21 PM, BrandX said:

 

I'd say one of the reasons it's down on the list, is it seems one either builds for defense or one builds for offense when it comes to WP.  Building for both can be a bit difficult outside of a couple Primaries.

That's a big part of it.  The difference between capping +DEF or +RES and getting within 5% of cap is tremendous in terms of survivability against damage for which those mechanics function.

 

The other part is that everyone is speaking from a different context/set of assumptions/build.   Leveling up, /Regen dominates.   But at 50, when it's all about capping one form of mitigation, /Regen has the hardest time doing that.   Capping +Regen doesn't work as well when the spike damage can exceed your total HPs.   /WP has the advantage that it can get closer to capping than /Regen can. 

 

That having been said, /WP has its own issues.  One of the biggest is that it has no +Heal.   So if /WP is in a situation where it gets unlucky, or the incoming DPS is too great, it has no quick HP recover to get pass the inflection point of the "I win" equation.   /SR and /SD are in the same boat, but those sets can cap at least one form of mitigation and in the case of /SD, maybe two.  The +Regen on /WP  is nice, but it's no Instant Healing.

 

The other issue with /WP is that's not obvous how to build it.   So when people talk about a set like /WP, people are speaking from very different build experiences.   A set like /SR is comparatively easy to build.   I think even /Regen is more straight forward to build than /WP.

 

So yeah...my lvl 50 /WP is underwhelming.  I've put a lot of money into it, but I don't have Mids, so my build is average and struggles doing 4x8 solo sans Incarnate and candy-popping.   So yeah, for the average build, I would say an average /Regen is as good if not better than an average /WP, if we're just relying on the Secondary.

 

And agree about slow resist.  Why would you put that on a secondary whose one click is immune to recharge enhance?

[SomeGuy]

8 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

 Leveling up, /Regen dominates. 

 

Funny you say this. Almost no one does. Once sets get thrown in to the equation though? Regen goes quickly to the back. The wayyyyy back. Not even in the same zip code. But when just comparing SOs? It ain't horrible. But holy cow it does not scale well. At all.

Edited September 28, 2022 by SomeGuy

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

 

Funny you say this. Almost no one does. Once sets get thrown in to the equation though? Regen goes quickly to the back. The wayyyyy back. Not even in the same zip code. But when just comparing SOs? It ain't horrible. But holy cow it does not scale well. At all.

 

As someone who's always working on Regen builds that tries to not rely on Power Pool Tier 3 abilities or Shadow Meld, I'm curious, what would be a good Resist level for a Regen?  Just max resists?  Would 25% across the board work?  33%?  50%?  What's a good number to work towards?

 

The most I've gotten is roughly 33% on all but Psi at minimum.  Have never made it up, as I'm just not sure it's enough.  I would think (could be wrong) a Regen that focuses on some higher Resists would work, but I'm not sure and others may have tested it out.

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

As someone who's always working on Regen builds that tries to not rely on Power Pool Tier 3 abilities or Shadow Meld, I'm curious, what would be a good Resist level for a Regen?  Just max resists?  Would 25% across the board work?  33%?  50%?  What's a good number to work towards?

 

The most I've gotten is roughly 33% on all but Psi at minimum.  Have never made it up, as I'm just not sure it's enough.  I would think (could be wrong) a Regen that focuses on some higher Resists would work, but I'm not sure and others may have tested it out.

 

 

I'm to biased against regen to fairly answer that. The smartass in me wants to say "reroll is a good resist level for the set".

 

You're gonna get your best survivability prioritizing Def (no damage) - Resist (still get hit but not as hard) - HP (got hit but didn't faceplant) - HP/s (regen)

 

x/Regen does this in reverse. That ain't good. And honoestly, inflicting damage is more beneficial than HP/s in my experience. Make it dead then it can't hit you. Regen doesn't contribute to that. The regen has to be ABSURD (pre-nerf IH) to make it good, and even when IH wasn't in it's current state, there is no way it would last in the current game with the flood of damage coming in. You can't regen if you are dead.

 

I slapped together a db/wp scrapper out of boredom and these were the #s I got:

 

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Nimble Slash -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(37), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), TchofDth-Dam%(37), GldStr-%Dam(40)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal(42), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(42), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(43), Prv-Heal/Rchg(48), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(48)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Hct-Dam%(5), Hct-Dmg(25), TchofDth-Dam%(34), AchHee-ResDeb%(34)
Level 4: Mind Over Body -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(13), UnbGrd-Max HP%(15), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(21)
Level 6: Typhoon's Edge -- SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(A), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(45)
Level 8: Blinding Feint -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(9), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(9), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), GssSynFr--Build%(11), GldStr-%Dam(15)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Ksm-ToHit+(31)
Level 12: Fast Healing -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx(A), DctWnd-EndRdx/Rchg(17), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(17), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(19), DctWnd-Heal(19), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(43)
Level 18: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-End%(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(21)
Level 22: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(47), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(47), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Arm-Dam%(27), Arm-Dmg(31), Erd-%Dam(31), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(34)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(29), ShlWal-Def(29)
Level 30: Tough -- UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 32: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(36), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), ShlWal-Def(36)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(42), Rct-Def(43), Rct-ResDam%(45)
Level 38: Moonbeam -- Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Apc-Dam%(39), Apc-Dmg(39), GldJvl-Dam%(40), Dcm-Build%(40)
Level 41: Shadow Meld -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 44: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Resurgence -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Strength of Will -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(45), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(46), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(46), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(49)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(3)
Level 49: Quick Form
Level 24: Double Jump
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Task Force Commander
Level 50: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
------------

 
 

 

 

That ain't bad at all. Not one bit. Good defense and good resist. Good HP (only 400 away from scrapper cap WITHOUT accolades). I slapped a -TOHIT IO in RttC also. If something would get the full -TOHIT debuff with this, then it would be soft capped to SL.

 

*with accolades this is less than 100HP of cap.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by SomeGuy

[Blackjoy]

On 9/27/2022 at 6:19 PM, BrandX said:

The most I've gotten is roughly 33% on all but Psi at minimum.  Have never made it up, as I'm just not sure it's enough.  I would think (could be wrong) a Regen that focuses on some higher Resists would work, but I'm not sure and others may have tested it out.

Enough for what?  What is your metric?    But you have to understand that every additional iota of +DEF is more valuable than the last.  The same is true for +RES.   And there is a world of defense between 60% +RES and 70% +RES.

 

I think the best form of mitigation you can add to /Regen is soft mitigation.  Attacks that knockdown or disorient slow down the incoming DPS and allow /Regen's healing to be a bigger factor.  I've been leveling a KM/Regen after leveling an SM/Regen.   The SM kills faster and recharges faster,, but the KM holds it's own on account of so many KD powers.

 

On 9/27/2022 at 5:12 PM, SomeGuy said:

But holy cow it does not scale well. At all.

It doesn't scale because it was never designed to solo at 4x8.  And without perma-IH, it doesn't solo AV's well either.  The other sets weren't designed for this either, but later additions to the game allowed several sets to cap +DEF or +RES way more easily/consistently than was intended, so these sets are getting asymmetrical benefits.  

 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:28 PM, SomeGuy said:

And honoestly, inflicting damage is more beneficial than HP/s in my experience. Make it dead then it can't hit you. Regen doesn't contribute to that

Actually it does in the from +Recovery and it's a big deal....when you're leveling up.  Without Set IO's /SR and /SD run dry and you aren't killing anything when you can't fire your attacks and your toggles drop.  But...Set IO's and +Recovery Provs  have allowed Scrappers to have eliminate Endurance issues almost entirely.  So one big advantage that /Regen has is totally undermined.  You might argue that /Regen should be free to  chase +DMG in the Set IOs, but I don't know if it works out that way.  I don't know that I can get anough +DMG bonuses for a /Regen to make up for all the +Recovery that other sets can get.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Blackjoy