Toggle Suppression

[WindDemon21]

Just re-iterating, that this 5s suppression is still way too long, and should be lowered. Not as it to have it, now forced to live before the discussion was blocked on it, that it is still, not ok at 5s.

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Just re-iterating, that this 5s suppression is still way too long, and should be lowered. Not as it to have it, now forced to live before the discussion was blocked on it, that it is still, not ok at 5s.

Lots of discussion happened on the beta when testing was conducted. That's how it was lowered to 5 seconds to begin with. Recommend reading through those threads for the lively discussion. 

[WindDemon21]

18 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Lots of discussion happened on the beta when testing was conducted. That's how it was lowered to 5 seconds to begin with. Recommend reading through those threads for the lively discussion. 

Yeah I was part of all of that, and 5 seconds, given everything, is still too long. Hence bringing this up again. Just cause the devs seem to think it's good at that time, doesn't mean it is, and shouldn't just be "forgotten about" because they forced it to live before the discussion was "over".

 

edit: had to put over in quotes.

Edited September 10, 2022 by WindDemon21

[Glacier Peak]

24 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yeah I was part of all of that, and 5 seconds, given everything, is still too long. Hence bringing this up again. Just cause the devs seem to think it's good at that time, doesn't mean it is, and shouldn't just be "forgotten about" because they forced it to live before the discussion was "over".

 

edit: had to put over in quotes.

I mean, the fact that the devs think its at a good time interval does mean it is. They thought 7 or 8 seconds was good, player base did testing and wanted 3 seconds, devs met them in the middle.

 

Not sure where the "they forced it" is coming from - it was on the beta shard for months and before that it was tested on the closed beta. They took the feedback and made their changes. Have you played a Peacebringer since then? Form switching is amazing! A little lag between flying and dropping, but I'm confident that will be addressed in the future. 

 

So, not saying you're wrong or right, just a bit confused. Are you saying there is something that you've found that wasn't addressed and that's what your trying to discuss?

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

They thought 7 or 8 seconds was good, player base did testing and wanted 3 seconds, devs met them in the middle.

 

The 3 seconds WAS about the max. We WANTED none at all like defensive buffs have. In the middle would have been 3, or 4 seconds max. 5 is still too long. There is no confusion. Just that the devs decided on 5 seconds for now, and we need to keep bringing up that it should be shorter for them to look at it again.

[Omega-202]

4 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

The 3 seconds WAS about the max. We WANTED none at all like defensive buffs have. In the middle would have been 3, or 4 seconds max. 5 is still too long. There is no confusion. Just that the devs decided on 5 seconds for now, and we need to keep bringing up that it should be shorter for them to look at it again.

You're saying this like everyone unanimously wanted 3 seconds or for the change to be cancelled.  That's not true.  I think that 5 seconds is more than fair and is actually some solid power creep.  I thought 6 seconds was more in line, but I didn't see an issue with 8.  

 

This change is an overall buff for 95% of characters, and that huge discussion thread was definitely "over".  You just didn't want to give up.  If the dev team had to wait for you to agree with the change for the discussion to be over, then Page 4 would have never dropped.  

 

Move on.

[Outrider_01]

Question about suppression, but not exactly this discussion. 

 

Awhile back they let travel powers stack like CJ and SJ, but as long as the stronger power is active it over rules the lesser.  You're wasting endurance mostly, for the sake of not having to remember about toggling a travel power.

 

Im looking at a scrapper build with /Nin, does the +Jmp/+Run boost stack Kuji-Rin with CJ from (click mez protection like Practice brawler, with the movement bonus).  Or does CJ over rule the Kuji-Rin bonus.  Im looking at a non-min max (not uber) build of  "to the hell with it, can it work", Ice/Nin build has extra slots over Fire/Nin (Ice slick, 2 recarge and its good to go compared to fire melee) so wondering if it would be worthwhile to slot in CJ for +up-distance or just slot Sprint for the hell of it for +run/jump, with the Kuji-Rin should get some decent ground speed in missions.

[Luminara]

43 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Im looking at a scrapper build with /Nin, does the +Jmp/+Run boost stack Kuji-Rin with CJ from (click mez protection like Practice brawler, with the movement bonus).  Or does CJ over rule the Kuji-Rin bonus.

 

They stack.

 

[Outrider_01]

Thanks you Lum.

[WindDemon21]

10 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

This change is an overall buff for 95% of characters, and that huge discussion thread was definitely "over".  You just didn't want to give up.  If the dev team had to wait for you to agree with the change for the discussion to be over, then Page 4 would have never dropped.  

 

Move on.

I like how you arbitrarily say it's a buff for 95%, pulling that number out of thin air. When it is in fact a nerf to WAY more at that time frame.

 

Given that toggles shouldn't take more than 1-1.5s to begin with, but even WITHOUT that, it's still too long for most that only have two, if not just one offensive toggle. I'd have to pull all the combos, but it's really only a buff to maybe 10% of the combos, a slight nerf to about 40%, and a big nerf to about 50%.

 

Don't forget, this also has to account for enemies dying and you can't even manually turn the toggle off when mezzed, and a HUGE issue, that during this whole time, when mezzed and suppressed, that the toggles are costing full endurance.

 

Just cause you don't care enough, doesn't mean the issue is gone and should be moved on if it wasn't done right the first time.

[Glacier Peak]

28 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I like how you arbitrarily say it's a buff for 95%, pulling that number out of thin air. When it is in fact a nerf to WAY more at that time frame.

 

Given that toggles shouldn't take more than 1-1.5s to begin with, but even WITHOUT that, it's still too long for most that only have two, if not just one offensive toggle. I'd have to pull all the combos, but it's really only a buff to maybe 10% of the combos, a slight nerf to about 40%, and a big nerf to about 50%.

 

Don't forget, this also has to account for enemies dying and you can't even manually turn the toggle off when mezzed, and a HUGE issue, that during this whole time, when mezzed and suppressed, that the toggles are costing full endurance.

 

Just cause you don't care enough, doesn't mean the issue is gone and should be moved on if it wasn't done right the first time.

It's not a number pulled out of thin air. It's an accurate representation of the actual powers in game.

 

How long on average does it take to retoggle an Offensive Toggle power, meaning activation time (and originally recharge before the changes). You know this because you replied to posters in the Focused Feedback thread. Luminara had a huge list of the activation times of them.

 

You clearly care about this issue more than most posters based on your feedback. You replied the most to the Focused Feedback thread on the beta too. But you are not going to change anything by saying 'this is how it should be and I want it' you need to demonstrate with testing that something isn't working, file a bug report, and wait for the devs to determine how to handle it. Because that is how this game is ran by the Homecoming staff, not you. 

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

I like how you arbitrarily say it's a buff for 95%, pulling that number out of thin air. When it is in fact a nerf to WAY more at that time frame.

 

Given that toggles shouldn't take more than 1-1.5s to begin with, but even WITHOUT that, it's still too long for most that only have two, if not just one offensive toggle. I'd have to pull all the combos, but it's really only a buff to maybe 10% of the combos, a slight nerf to about 40%, and a big nerf to about 50%.

 

Don't forget, this also has to account for enemies dying and you can't even manually turn the toggle off when mezzed, and a HUGE issue, that during this whole time, when mezzed and suppressed, that the toggles are costing full endurance.

 

Just cause you don't care enough, doesn't mean the issue is gone and should be moved on if it wasn't done right the first time.

Look in the thread.  I isolated all of the combos, listed out their animation times and basically the only set that arguably comes out behind is Rad Emission.  And that's assuming your first reaction after getting mezzed was always to retoggle and not to pop a heal, attack or run.  

 

You're wrong.  But thid has already been litigated and you lost, so I'm not going to waste any more time.

[golstat2003]

48 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Look in the thread.  I isolated all of the combos, listed out their animation times and basically the only set that arguably comes out behind is Rad Emission.  And that's assuming your first reaction after getting mezzed was always to retoggle and not to pop a heal, attack or run.  

 

You're wrong.  But thid has already been litigated and you lost, so I'm not going to waste any more time.

With that said if a toggle is suppressed it SHOULD NOT be costing endurance. That’s the only part of what the OP said that I agree with.

 

Also he’s allowed to bring the discussion up again if he doesn’t agree. (though I disagree with just about everything he said besides the endurance issue).

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

With that said if a toggle is suppressed it SHOULD NOT be costing endurance. That’s the only part of what the OP said that I agree with.

 

Also he’s allowed to bring the discussion up again if he doesn’t agree. (though I disagree with just about everything he said besides the endurance issue).

Yeah that was my take as well. Sounded like the poster was describing a bug, that is why I recommended a bug report be filed. 

 

And same with the second part. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[DoctorDitko]

Absolutely agree that suppressed powers shouldn't be costing me END.

 

Not qualified to comment on the rest of the discussion!

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

It's not a number pulled out of thin air. It's an accurate representation of the actual powers in game.

 

How long on average does it take to retoggle an Offensive Toggle power, meaning activation time (and originally recharge before the changes). You know this because you replied to posters in the Focused Feedback thread. Luminara had a huge list of the activation times of them.

 

You clearly care about this issue more than most posters based on your feedback. You replied the most to the Focused Feedback thread on the beta too. But you are not going to change anything by saying 'this is how it should be and I want it' you need to demonstrate with testing that something isn't working, file a bug report, and wait for the devs to determine how to handle it. Because that is how this game is ran by the Homecoming staff, not you. 

This WAS all layed out in that thread. It would be easier to just say read back on that thread if you are not understanding it. And if you read it, you'll easily see that it is NO WAY possible that it's 95%. The issue also needs to be isolated by type as well. Easily, you can just ignore any actual damage aura on any melee type, its nice for that, but that's not the issue.

 

The issue, is and always was, about those debuff toggles on the enemy that are needed for survival. Snow storm, rad toggles, nature toggles, kb toggles, darkest night etc. Those are the ones that this issue hits hardest on, and should be focused on.

 

Venemous Gas: 2.03s

Snow Storm: 2.03s

Darkest Night: 3.17s (esp an outlier, but these go to the fact that also none of these should be more than 1.5s anyway even before this update)

Spore Cloud: 3.1s

Entangling Aura: 2.03s

Radiation Infection: 1.5s

Enervating Field: 1.5s

Choking Cloud: 1s

Disruption Field: 2.7s

Sonic Repulsion: 2.33s

Snow Storm: 2.03s

Hurricane: 2.03s

Time's Juncture: .67s

Repulsion Field: 2.03s

 

Arctic Air: 2.03s

Hotfeet: 1.47s

Conductive Aura: 2.03s

 

Right there that's 1.98 seconds on average per toggle. Of the support ones directly, 5 have just 1 toggle, 3 have 2, and only rad has 3 toggles. But if you want to factor set-wise too, it's even more noticeable that it should be lower, as even the 3 toggles on rad total only 4 seconds now. leaving the longest set nature at 5.13s Total time, being the ONLY one that really benefits direct stat-wise at the 5 seconds (but not factoring that you can't choose which would normally be applied sooner).

 

Looking at those support sets too: Average toggles among just the toggle sets is 1.42 toggles times the average toggle time would be 2.805 seconds, still under the 3s I mentioned, which again, isn't even including that no toggle should take more than 1.5s really.

 

This all becomes even more moot when you even just think how defensive toggles have ZERO suppression time when a mez wears off, so this whole argument that there even IS a suppression time is already DUMB tbh.

 

Telekinesis, and dimension shift are also wholly separate from this conversation as well for a multitude of reasons not limited to them needing reworking/stating etc.

 

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

You're wrong.  But thid has already been litigated and you lost, so I'm not going to waste any more time.

So yeah, I'm not wrong, and others have shown/expressed this on the old thread as well.

 

There are also many other factors such as choosing which is applied first if there were no suppression, END COST while mezzed/suppressed of those toggles which is the extra super dumb part of all this, where the initial target is when the mez wears off and if it's dead already, the fact that you can't detoggle manually while you're mezzed etc, that the suppression is there even if you turn the toggle on AFTER being mezzed etc.

 

There is still a whole slew of things wrong with this at 5 seconds of suppression, where the 3 seconds would be the more appropriate time-frame for it due to all of  these factors, but granting moving/attacking, would be willing to try or at least compromise at the 4s time where most still kinda get crap out of it toggle-focused wise, but 5s, is noticeably in-game too long.

[TheZag]

I guess in a perfect mathematically efficient world those numbers might hold up.  But if im mezzed and my toggles dropped,  it would be alot longer than 5 seconds for me to reapply them since i would be focusing on some sort of other survival ability or movement.  Offensive toggles being suppressed for 5 seconds and then being back without having to recast allows me to use other abilities or move around.  Just adding up cast times and calling it a nerf doesnt account for actual combat and how after 5 seconds you get one or several cast times instantly.  10 seconds worth of ability casts after 5 seconds with nature?  Yes thank you,  dont mind if i do.

 

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

I guess in a perfect mathematically efficient world those numbers might hold up.  But if im mezzed and my toggles dropped,  it would be alot longer than 5 seconds for me to reapply them since i would be focusing on some sort of other survival ability or movement.  Offensive toggles being suppressed for 5 seconds and then being back without having to recast allows me to use other abilities or move around.  Just adding up cast times and calling it a nerf doesnt account for actual combat and how after 5 seconds you get one or several cast times instantly.  10 seconds worth of ability casts after 5 seconds with nature?  Yes thank you,  dont mind if i do.

 

If you read this thread, and read the other ones from the previous one, you'd know that we have stated MULTIPLE TIMES, that this is also factoring that in. Repeating it and acting dumb about it, does not change what you're saying, nor make you right.

[Glacier Peak]

So OP wants to have a discussion, but they keep saying to anybody who responds that either they don't get it or are wrong entirely. 

 

This is going to be a short thread 😆 

[Peacemoon]

For some sets the offensive toggles are what keeps them alive, so every second that they are not working is a very dangerous second that could result in death. So let’s not treat a few seconds difference as ‘inconsequential’, it’s not.

 

What the OP is referring to is that normally you would recast the offensive toggles straight away to ensure survivability, and you can do that a lot faster than the 5 seconds that they remain suppressed.
 

This is why the whole idea of suppression with a delayed restart time is so controversial, because it is not a ‘straight buff’ to how things were before. In many cases it makes life more dangerous, because not only are you vulnerable while mezzed, you now also have to count to 5 in your head before you can stand toe to toe with what you’re fighting, rather then just immediately recasting your protection.

 

The other point is, this is not people being ungrateful for small buffs when they wanted bigger buffs, this is people finding the newer system, under the guise of convenience and improvement, worse than the previous system, and being unable to explain why to people who aren’t used to relying on offensive toggles to survive. Also explains the frustration and emotion you hear in the posts. 
 

Personally I agree with the OP and am not a fan of invisible suppression times that are hard to gauge, whether it’s 1 second or 5. If toggles are suppressed, it should only be when your character is mezzed, and there should be no delay before they restart working. Just like defensive toggles. It makes little sense in terms of gameplay, isn’t intuitive, and doesn’t make sense from a RP perspective. Either my character is mezzed or they aren’t, I don’t see why ‘lingering weakness’ should be a thing.

 

Anyway just wanted to add my thoughts in support of the OP.

[KC4800]

I have only played my Rad/Water Defender a couple times since this change went live, and I have to say, I didn't even notice that the powers were suppressed for 5 seconds. I was just so happy that I didn't have to wait for Choking Cloud to recharge, then turn it back on, then recast Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. Now that I know, I will use that time to eat a purple, red and yellow and take my revenge. Where's my break free again??...oh there it is.

 

<<That above is an old man on a keyboard..role playing what happens on his side of the keyboard when he's hit by a lucky shot and gets stunned unexpectedly...it takes longer than 5 seconds>>

Edited September 12, 2022 by KC4800

[TheZag]

I got sucked in by the half information and gave an incomplete reply.  You cant just call out animation times and compare them to 5 seconds of suppression.  They all went on recharge before this change.  Come back with those numbers after adding in the recharge.  You will need them for different mez durations since they used to go on cooldown during the mez and let us know at what duration of mez does the animation+recharge become a nerf.  But since my first comment is me 'acting dumb',  i dont expect much.  The change was meant to give some quality of life for offensive toggle recasting and simulate the recast times,  not give players permanent offensive toggles that are reactivated the moment you break out of the mez.

 

If it sucks so bad for you,  turn them all off and recast everything when you get mezzed.  I bet you cant do that twice without thinking that suppression is better.

 

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

If toggles are suppressed, it should only be when your character is mezzed, and there should be no delay before they restart working. Just like defensive toggles.

Not to mention that, due to game systems, Offensive Toggles are demonstrably worse than Defensive Toggles at keeping the player alive while active. Yet, for some reason, despite being worse in every respect, they still have to have additional drawbacks while the Defensive Toggles were allowed to "powercreep."

 

It just doesn't make sense to me at all from that perspective alone.

 

24 minutes ago, TheZag said:

They all went on recharge before this change.  Come back with those numbers after adding in the recharge.

For most PvE builds, against the majority of PvE enemies, your toggles would recharge before enemy mez wore off. Even in the case of using a Break Free, your toggle would likely return on its own before 5 seconds elapsed. The trouble is, would you even still be alive before any of that mattered? In content where that survivability is required, 5 seconds is an eternity. You're more likely to just faceplant once your toggles dropped for any length of time.

 

9 hours ago, TheZag said:

But if im mezzed and my toggles dropped,  it would be alot longer than 5 seconds for me to reapply them since i would be focusing on some sort of other survival ability or movement

Players who understand the combat system already take advantage of this while a toggle is recharging. For instance, I'm already firing Fearsome Stare, Twilight Grasp, then jumping behind a corner while casting Darkest Night in order to break LoS, and despite DN having a long animation, the actual debuff starts working very quickly. 5 seconds is much closer to the time it takes to do all of that than the original 8 seconds was, but it's still slower.

 

1 hour ago, KC4800 said:

I have only played my Rad/Water Defender a couple times since this change went live, and I have to say, I didn't even notice that the powers were suppressed for 5 seconds

Radiation is pretty much the only set that this greatly benefits just because of how many toggles it runs. For basically everyone else, it's either a neutral change or a net nerf.

 

---

 

I still don't know why they have a lockout timer at all considering how much worse these powers are compared to armor toggles, but the dev team decided they didn't want to "powercreep" them for some arbitrary reason they refuse to elaborate on. It's basically just Rune of Protection all over again -- making sure the status quo remains so.

[srmalloy]

On 9/10/2022 at 12:27 PM, Glacier Peak said:

Have you played a Peacebringer since then? Form switching is amazing! A little lag between flying and dropping, but I'm confident that will be addressed in the future. 

All that will take is adding the same 'float for a second or so' effect you get from Nova - > Dwarf, or when teleporting to a spot in mid-air, to the Nova - > human transition and that's dealt with. Just enough time for Energy Flight or Combat Flight to come off suppression.

[TheZag]

4 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I still don't know why they have a lockout timer at all considering how much worse these powers are compared to armor toggles, but the dev team decided they didn't want to "powercreep" them for some arbitrary reason they refuse to elaborate on. It's basically just Rune of Protection all over again -- making sure the status quo remains so.

 

My best guess would be they are attempting to keep things similar to the original design and not take too large of a step all at once.  Offensive toggles are pretty bad in my opinion too.  Most mobs die quickly so i dont even bother to use them.  Against strong groups,  i tend to get agro from several enemies so i mostly use them against AVs.

 

When im on my radiation emission and trying to keep the toggles up,  it takes so long to apply both targeted toggles and then the click debuff that ive missed most of the action.  And then to just reapply on the next group and miss out on doing damage again.

 

I dont disagree that it wouldnt make much difference from 5 seconds of suppression to only suppressed while mezzed.  But i still consider what we got a buff over what we had.  Being able to do other stuff and still have the toggles come back is huge,  especially on my willpower brute (not sure why an offensive component was ever placed on a regen toggle to begin with). 

 

I actually want to anchor my toggle debuffs on an ally so we dont have to reapply for every single group.  Even if they drop after a few minutes on an ally,  it would still be nice to have the toggles last for a couple groups instead of just 1.