How to fix Masterminds?

[Neiska]

Hello Forums,

 

I just wanted to start a constructive discussion about what can be done to fix the current state of Masterminds. But I would like to highlight that we should keep our expectations realistic and within the abilities/resources of the staff. I make no assumptions on what they can or cannot do, but I think things such as tweaks are more realistic than wild powerset resigns and mechanics changes. And this is all just me musing, but perhaps we can give the staff some ideas or insight. And this is just me musing as a MM main.

 

1. The big one for me is the pet level shift. Making all pets equal to the Mastermind might not fix everything but it would be a good start. And while not a coding expert of any sort, as I understand it the Mastermind coding is a jumbled mess, so I am not even sure if this is even an option. But if it is, it would be a nice QoL change for all Masterminds of all builds from 1-50 in all content.

 

2. Primary streamlining. This varies from set to set, but the general consensus is that 3 pet types are ahead of others, at least in regard to survivability, pet self buffing, and damage. Robots, Demons, and Thugs are the top 3, while the rest start to lag behind, and some lag WAY behind. It might be nice if other primaries were brought up to be roughly equal to the big 3. Not necessarily meaning a boost in damage, but other options are available. If it was up to me, I would make the primaries without "mule powers" be given "something" to compensate for the "enhancement tax" for slotting.

 

3. Pet survivability. This isn't an easy one to answer, as how durable pets can be varies from pet type as well as secondary. Just as a thought experiment here, but lets say Pets were raised baseline so they were durable enough for incarnate content. That would have the side effect of making the survivability-minded Mastermind setups only go that much further beyond what the base rate would be, so I am not certain that is overall a good thing. But one thing I did notice is that pet hit points are all roughly the same. Defenses and resistances there is a bit of variation, but not wildly so, at least not the pets on their own without included primary buffs that the pets are capable of themselves. For example, a Robot or Demon pet is quite close, until their self buffs are applied. I am not saying this is good or bad, only highlighting that balancing pet durability is a bit tricky. If it was up to me, I would increase pet hit points and AoE defenses as any amount of purple seems to 1 shot pets unless you have barrier up.

 

4. Pet Damage. I don't mean the numbers per say, I mean the "how" they do damage. Taking robots as an example, the set has nearly all of its damage loaded into one single attack, and its an area effect dot at that. Meaning against single targets, or even moving targets, a robots damage is lackluster. And the harder targets are often resistant to slows/immobilize, making it even more difficult to apply said damage. Also bare in mind that most pet sets are melee, with only Robots and Mercs being ranged, and a few sets are mixed, and only 1 set is debuff focused. Again any change here is limited I suspect, due in part to the limited number of Mastermind Primaries. We do after all have the fewest primaries out of any AT, even the VEATS and Epic ATs once full pools and stances are accounted for. If it was up to me, I would try to balance the pet sets a bit, such as making 2 of them ranged, 2 of them melee, 2 of them buff/debuff focused to enable different builds or playstyles.

 

5. Incarnate/Hardmode. Masterminds perform well enough until the endgame, but then their performance starts to drop in Incarnate and Hardmode content. The pets simply don't survive well, which makes the MM secondaries more of a focus, and most MM values pale compared to other ATs. I am not enough of a games expert to really suggest what can be done here, as it might be too easy to "overcorrect." Meaning I could see that attempts to make Masterminds good in these activities, might make them too strong or too good in other areas. Unless there is something possible like a pet buff that only applies during these activities such as the +2/3 player level shift, but I am not sure if this is possible.

 

6. The Mastermind Damage/END penalty. Personally I think it's time these were revalued. I am not saying necessarily they need to be gone completely, but re-tweaked perhaps. Masterminds are already limited in tools and options, such as a lack of a "buildup" ability. (though I suppose it could be argued that Gangwar and Hell on Earth are their "buildups", these only exist on two pet types.) But they are also limited in END tools as well, especially in the epic power pools. So unless the Masterminds Secondary has END tools, they are more or less forced to take ageless later on, which further diminishes their options in endgame content.

 

Anyway, these are the main issues in my mere opinion. In short the removal of level shifts, streamlining in primary performance, incarnate/hardmode consideration, and another look at the Mastermind inherent AT penalties.

 

Any other thoughts/ideas/suggestions for any staff that might see this?

[TheZag]

I think it has to go 1 step at a time so MMs dont turn into godmode.  And your first point is where i would start.  Either remove the level shift or adjust the henchmen accuracy and damage tables against +5 and +6 enemies.  No other AT fights +5 or 6s often but henchmen see them regularly.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

I just want to mention preemptively that the developers have said that they will not make the upgrade powers automatic.

 

I know that you're not asking for this, Neiska. But, every time we have a conversation about MMs people start saying that they want the upgrade powers to be auto powers. A developer has already stated definitively that they will not do that.

 

So I just wanted to mention that, preemptively.

[Six-Six]

I didn't know they were broken.

Am I the only one who enjoys each kind as they currently are? I mean sure each have their drawbacks some more than others, but nothing that cannot be worked around. I think it's cool that they all have specific strengths, weaknesses and nuances. I'd hate for them to start feeling all the same in the sense that if you've played one, you've played them all.

If there's anything to be fixed on MMs, I'd say start with customisation of skins. But that's just me.

[Yaliw]

I haven't posted in years but I'm back to discuss this topic as I am a massive mastermind player.

 

I agree with TheZag not only to prevent God mode but also to see where we are after every buff and switch tactics accordingly. I say this because I believe that due to the power discrepancy between the primaries, we will inevitably have to start doing buffs (nerfs?) To the sets themselves and not just global changes.

 

We can all agree mercs for example are at the bottom I hope but I don't want to touch them until all global changes are made to see what would need to be done to them on an individual level.

 

I believe this is a healthy approach to untangling the mess that is masterminds- let's fix the global issues first, then begin tweaking the powersets individually once that is done.

[Riverdusk]

I'd also start with the level issue and probably a bump to hit points.  

 

I'd also like to see a possible lookover for each set's special level 18 power and maybe let them all take ATO and pet set IO's so that some sets don't have a "tax" on having to slot the MM ATO's and pet +def/+res IO's in their actual pets, where some others get to stuff them into their level 18 power.  And general things like making necro's soul extraction not so clunky to use and making serum actually useful...

 

And speaking of mercs, for other damage/buffs to individual sets I think the only one that really has a damage issues is mercs (which could probably be solved by "fixing" its level 18 power).  Rest are much more debatable and more depends on how/what you are fighting.  For instance you state bots are in the top 3, and yet Galaxy Brain did one of his "standard comparisons" he likes to do and bots actually did poorly in that environment and beasts actually showed real strength.  If you are fighting late level x8 then of course I'd assume bots would shoot back up and beasts would fall back down.  But that's kind of standard for most CoH powersets in variety.

 

Personally I'd also like to see necro pets get some better resistances.  They are also on the low side for damage (and that's okay), but in exchange they should be among the "tankiest" imo, and right now they really aren't.

 

That'd be my wishlist anyway.

 

 

[Neiska]

27 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

For instance you state bots are in the top 3, and yet Galaxy Brain did one of his "standard comparisons" he likes to do and bots actually did poorly in that environment and beasts actually showed real strength. 

 

Not to disparage Galaxy Brain's numbers, but Robots are regarded as a top 3 set not just for damage. And this isn't "my" opinion, but rather the general consensus of the MM community. Personally, I think his robot numbers were a little off, as a main robot player your damage really depends on how well you keep things in your fire. There are various ways of doing this, either by immobilize, bonfire, standing in it yourself, and so on. And while they have the best AoE, they have one of the worst STs, as it takes me just as long to chase down single runners of bosses or EBs as it does to bulldoze a spawn. The issue with beasts is they have an incomplete attack cycle, plus they are almost entirely melee, so they have to chase down runners and the gap i their attack cycle only lets the enemies gain ground. When I played beasts all too often I followed a runner into the next spawn.

 

I am not saying his numbers are wrong or incorrect, I respect his work and effort. I only suspect that combat in general is far too varied and situational to do 5-10 runs of a map and rank the pet sets, especially when you consider enemy types/attack types/activity/terrain/so on. As an example, Robots is the only pet set I can go entirely AFK or hands-free on, no other set I have attempted to has been successful in that regard.

 

PS - Also after re-reading his post, Galaxy Brain stated that he didn't change the robot's knockback powers, which is sort of self-defeating since their main damage comes from keeping foes in 1 area, which the robots regularly push enemies out of unless you slot them not to. So unless his enemies were against a wall or something, he was sort of sabotaging his own numbers. I am not saying he did this on purpose, I just think it was a missed detail that is important for robots specifically.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Neiska
Added a PS

[KyezoKyrie]

What if we just altered the CDs for attacks and abilities on the pets?  The biggest complaint I've seen for Mercs has been the fact that all of their major stuff (CC for Spec Ops and the rocket for Commando) are on awfully long CDs to the point where the pets are almost useless.  Obviously not all sets would have the CDs heavily reduced, but what if they were closer together?  I totally understand that there is going to be different things to consider with each pet's abilities, as giving CC the same CD as a massive damaging move could completely make one set scores beyond others.

 

Pet level syncing with Incarnate stuff would be nice but I can't imagine the difficulty in trying to achieve such a task with how messy the pet code must be.

 

I'd like to see higher scaling stats across all sets for pets the closer you get to 50 to help with both survival and viability, but I don't know if I'd want to see damage numbers any higher than base (sans tweaking one or two sets).  I'll admit I've not compared numbers with Defenders so maybe the pets do need better damage scaling, but then it brings up the question of what role does the MM actually fit in?  I know they were intended to be Tanks back when they were released and have fallen into more of a weird support role with six sentient weapons that does their bidding, but should it be more of a damage role?  This would hover around the unfortunate homogenization of the power sets across the board by changing the level 18 to an actual pet attack/buff, flavored for the set, and usable as a mandatory ATO/Buff tax within it.  The easiest way to do this would be summoning temporary pets flavored by set with a possible buff to a pet or an ST debuff from the temporary pets themselves.

 

Or we could embrace the original idea for Masterminds, give a taunt that buffs the pets with gauntlet for a very short period and crank up the stat scaling for pets.  This would give lowbies the feeling that they're not better than a Tanker or Brute but can still feel like they're able to pick up mobs as needed.  At higher levels there would be arguments for MMs replacing Tankers and Brutes for the purpose of tanking since the pets would have gauntlet, especially those Time MMs who would absolutely find a way to perma-buff the pets with gauntlet and just abuse the heck out of aggro caps.

[Uun]

The pet level shift for Incarnate content is in the game now. Having it apply to HM content shouldn't take much.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Incarnate_Shift

"Mastermind Supremacy will grant 2 Incarnate Shifts to Minion Pets and 1 Incarnate Shifts to Lieutenant Pets while participating in Incarnate content. This means that Minion pets will be level 48(+2) and Lieutenant Pets will be level 49(+1) before any other Shifts are taken into account. These Shifts will stack with any granted by Incarnate Abilities."

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Supremacy

"During Incarnate Trials and within Dark Astoria, Supremacy grants +2 Incarnate Shifts to Minion Henchmen and +1 Incarnate Shift to Lieutenant Henchmen which can be stacked with other Incarnate Abilities which grant Incarnate Shifts."

 

If you're level shifted to 50+3, your tier 1 pets will be 48+5, your tier 2 pets with be 49+4 and your tier 3 pet will be 50+3. 

[Darkaiser]

As a long-time MM player and fan (still a strong contender for my favorite AT), it pleases me to see a sensible discussion on this topic. That being said, I wish to make a few points:

 

1) The changes Uun listed above will help with targeting and with the minions getting hit, but the survivability won't change by much IMHO (I'm going to be testing this right after I post). As has been discussed, the issues with MMs are many and varied so while simply raising their effective level is a good start (and praise to the idea of making small changes that we can scale rather than sweeping one that then have to be nerfed), the level-shift will only fix some issues.

 

2) MMs are a homogenized collection of powers to say the least. Most of their damage comes from their pets but the MMs can have attacks as well. The secondaries are mostly of the buffing/debuffing type so they're sort of like Defenders who bring their own team with them. But this makes them somewhat difficult to play (learning pet control can be daunting) and the Diff and level plateaus seem to hit them harder because at some point, more enemies start to get AoEs and now you're spending more time summoning new pets than you are keeping the existing ones from rabbiting off down the hall after that one runner. Sadly, this means that there won't be one easy fix.

 

3) Something that has been discussed is power creep and making sure MMs aren't OP. No offense but considering that squishies can be built that can solo every boss and GM in the game I don't think that making MMs MORE powerful should be a concern. After years of watching my pets get melted in every Incarnate Trial and MSR and just plain not using them during Hami raids, I WANT a bit of power creep. I think that MMs are entitled to it. I see nothing wrong with the idea that a MM who is played decently should be able to do 3/4s of what more specialized ATs do. They'll never be full-on Controllers or Blasters or Tanks but they should be able to play second-string in these roles if built and played well. MMs are so far off the beaten path of ATs in this game that I don't think we'll ever have to worry about 'OMG MMs are SO OP everyone wants to make one NOW!'

 

4) I think that a good start would be raising all boats as it were. Dial up the effects of Supremacy a bit. Have the two Pet Training powers also grant extra HP. Raise the Leadership buff numbers, but only for the pets (if that's possible) so massed MMs stacking their Leadership won't be too gross. Level the playing field a bit with regards to the popular sets vs the unpopular (personally I love Mercs but everyone says they need love and I can only report what I see so I'll bend to the majority). MMs also need some help in their power pools. They get little to no change to mitigate End costs (and with Leadership running they NEED End mitigation).

 

 

I know that this will be a struggle, but I enjoy the AT so much that I feel that it's worth the effort.

[Yaliw]

I'm not a programmer or magical computer man, it would be beneficial to hear how easy or difficult some of these changes could be so we could spend more energy discussing things that are possible.

 

I say this not out of defeatism but because I know the current team is doing all of this out of passion and love for the game. Triage is important in this case.

 

Would it be beneficial to hold a poll on a list of changes we'd like to see to get an idea of what is popular and unpopular? A simple strawpoll perhaps?

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Yaliw
A word

[Xandyr]

Replace Serum with Swap Ammo! I want my Mercs to be firing Incendiary, Cryo, or Chemical Rounds!

[Redletter]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:26 PM, Yaliw said:

We can all agree mercs for example are at the bottom I hope...

 

Ha! "I play masterminds a lot" he says. Well, Mr. Mastermind Man Guy Dude! If you play them as much as you say...

 

THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS?!!

As you can clearly see, it is not MERCS who are the bottom, but THUGS! Thugs are the booooottom!

 

Now, you can take you fallacious slander and go home! Or face the UNMITIGATED. FURY. of my  FIVE. DEGREE. COOOOOOOONE!!!

 

Also a way to make MMs better would be to find a way to make incarnate powers effect your pets. As it is, most of them are fucking useless for a MM who gets maybe 3 or 4 attacks on their own, and hardly has the best support stats to compensate for how little they do. Also, letting all buffs effect pets would be nice? Like, as it is, Kinetics is only halfway useful on MMs because all the +rech you do doesnt effect your pets. Why it doesnt is beyond me, but, I'd like my Rambo to be able to fire his rocket more than once every fiscal quarter. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

On 9/25/2022 at 9:24 AM, Xandyr said:

Replace Serum with Swap Ammo! I want my Mercs to be firing Incendiary, Cryo, or Chemical Rounds!

This sounds like a great idea! However, what the devs ended up doing with it seems better, IMNSHO.

 

What do you guys think ?

[Yaliw]

I have been defeated by cold, hard, objective facts and I will never mentally recover from being put on blast so hard.

 

Edit: I can't speak for the serum changes yet. I'm going to test a necro/time when I get the chance.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Yaliw

[Redletter]

15 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

This sounds like a great idea! However, what the devs ended up doing with it seems better, IMNSHO.

 

What do you guys think ?

 

I like them. The "no crash" really, REALLY makes the power better overall, the fact it's a "team" buff means you don't need to just use it on the rambo. I appreciate that it fades over time ass opposed to just STOPPING. I *do* wish it had a lower cooldown. Like, cute it by two minutes, because this power is *pretty* important and it is now in the very short list of powers where you're like "Im only going to use this once a mission, maybe not even then" and I do not think that's conducive to gameplay.

Mercs don't NEED that buff up ALL the time (anymore) but, you do want it, and getting it perma is real hard. Not to mention you get Serum before you get the commando, which means your lower tier pets are the ones who have to deal with that 8min cooldown the most, and they really don't want to be dealing with that, since theyre the ones who benefit the most from it.

[grinningsphinx]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:54 PM, Six-Six said:

I didn't know they were broken.

Am I the only one who enjoys each kind as they currently are? I mean sure each have their drawbacks some more than others, but nothing that cannot be worked around. I think it's cool that they all have specific strengths, weaknesses and nuances. I'd hate for them to start feeling all the same in the sense that if you've played one, you've played them all.

If there's anything to be fixed on MMs, I'd say start with customisation of skins. But that's just me.

 

Im not sure what content you are doing, but if you appreciate doing less then 20 damage, and that rarely, then sure....do lots of incarnate + difficulty lol.

[Six-Six]

14 hours ago, grinningsphinx said:

if you appreciate doing less then 20 damage, and that rarely, then sure....do lots of incarnate + difficulty

Sorry, I don't understand what you meant by this

I like the levelling up process... so Breakout until 45-ish. I start to lose interest around 40 when toons get a bit OP... and this is even under hardcore/ironman rules. I do see them to 50 just to get a sense of closure.

I've got several pairings, except Necro and Thugs only because I can't figure out a concept yet. True, some are duds, but some are quite good. One of my 50s can take on a GM without breaking a sweat. Most of them, I've had to gimp by limiting the pets to just one tier at a time. I've got a petless one and one that doesn't train (so she's only got one slot for each of her 5 powers and no Rest)... but those are special projects.

I also tend to run solo, but will join an occasional SF.

[grinningsphinx]

On 11/3/2022 at 3:26 AM, Six-Six said:

Sorry, I don't understand what you meant by this

I like the levelling up process... so Breakout until 45-ish. I start to lose interest around 40 when toons get a bit OP... and this is even under hardcore/ironman rules. I do see them to 50 just to get a sense of closure.

I've got several pairings, except Necro and Thugs only because I can't figure out a concept yet. True, some are duds, but some are quite good. One of my 50s can take on a GM without breaking a sweat. Most of them, I've had to gimp by limiting the pets to just one tier at a time. I've got a petless one and one that doesn't train (so she's only got one slot for each of her 5 powers and no Rest)... but those are special projects.

I also tend to run solo, but will join an occasional SF.

 

As someone who has run a lot of MMs,  Live in '05 with Bots/Dark  etc,  yeah, masterminds scaling is broken.  You are okay up to incarnate level, but once you start trying lvl 54 stuff, or hardmode content, they fall absolutely flat unless you have a secondary that brings team stuff to the table(ie nature as an example).  Your pets are all but useless for damage/cc and can only soak a little damage for you if you catch a cleave.. Thats why i said doing 20 damage if super built.

 

Theres really only 3 playstyles for MM....melee pets, hybrid pets and ranged pets.  Once youve played one type to T4 incarnate, you know how all of them will play. Its just different graphics at that point and a slightly different distribution of enhancements. 

 

The changes made to the old sets are a step in the right direction, but dont change any of the underlying problems with the class.

 

Take for instance,  T4 hardmode ITF....unless you are playing ranged pets and really no what you are doing, you seriously wont be doing anything with your primary. The additional content spawned there is 100% toxic to anything in melee thats not a player. And this is just the start of hardmode content.

 

 

[TheMoncrief]

Here's a concept somebody suggested in chat the other day. Make recharge slotted into MM pet powers function as +MaxHP for the pets instead.

 

As it stands now, there are several pet focused sets that are very poorly suited for Mastermind use, including the Pet purple set and one of the MM ATO sets, because they include a bunch of recharge enhancement which has absolutely no effect o MM  pets. This suggestion would make those sets actually useful, and would allow Masterminds to slot their pets for more survivability.

 

No idea how hard this would be to code, nor how potentially abusive players could make it. I mean, at best it would essentially double MM pet health totals, given ED, but it would be a step in the right direction. And I don't imagine it would break the world to have some Masterminds choosing to slot a 50+5 Recharge IO in their pets to get the extra MaxHP bonus, if they wanted to use pet sets that didn't natively have any Recharge.

[SableShrike]

Of my faceplants of late, I find a lot of it tied into Bodyguard and how that functions.

 

Might be worth looking at?  To have it work, pets are in Follow Defensive.

 

On teams that means 90% of the time they stand about doing mostly nothing (unless they get tagged by some AoE).

 

Countless new players make the mistake of leaving pets in Defensive and contribute hardly anything with their primary to teams.

 

Using Attack Aggressive has pets aggro and attack at will, but now you have no benefit from Bodyguard anymore.

 

Your HP is pathetically low, and on Incarnate max diff one good hit can oneshot you (thus killing all your pets).

 

So endgame you basically choose to have pets do nothing but stand about to soak hits and occasionally die to stray aggro, or actively engage and risk dying faster than oldschool Live Blasters used to.

 

In short, I don’t think Bodyguard has ever really done anything for MMs outside of preventing PvP ganking.

 

What do you guys think about Bodyguard working regardless of pet stance?

Edited November 16, 2022 by SableShrike

[tidge]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:45 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I just want to mention preemptively that the developers have said that they will not make the upgrade powers automatic.

 

I know that you're not asking for this, Neiska. But, every time we have a conversation about MMs people start saying that they want the upgrade powers to be auto powers. A developer has already stated definitively that they will not do that.

 

So I just wanted to mention that, preemptively.

 

I'm generally ok with the page 5 revamp for robotics, but it still makes no sense to me that one of the "upgrade" powers in a MM primary is a necessary and selectable power before two of the three tiers of henchmen are selectable powers.... especially considering at how low a level in the game it is possible to pick that first "upgrade" power.

 

MMs are rather unique to CoX, and there are several game fundamentals which make them feel (to me) like they are extremely closely tied to a legacy attitude of experiencing the game.... you know the ones: "an even battle is one players against 2 minions and a LT" and a "need to rest between spawns".

 

I've been trying my (page 5 revamped) Robotics/Traps MM through a variety of content...it is fine, but it still feels very much like it did before page 5 except in a few cases where it feels worse:

• GMs and AVs run run run, which makes it hard to keep the robots in Bodyguard mode (keeping the MM from being easily KOed) and keep up DPS on the AV or GM.
• Street sweeping is (still?) relatively slow.

I've been doing all sorts of content (exemplared too) with a level 50+ build, including street sweeping while exemplared. The only content where I found (so far) this character really shines was in a Positron 1/2 PUG. Posi 1 because it could stand by itself against the incoming hordes, Posi 2 because the henchmen could be sent in to take the alpha strike(s) for the PUG. Results on low-level zone GMs (Skyway Echoai) were fine, but PI monsters are no longer possible to solo (for me, YMMV). I was especially disappointed in the performance during Zig breakout events and KR construction events.

[C U R S E]

Reroll a Necro and never look back with the Revamp.

[Arbegla]

On 11/16/2022 at 2:27 AM, SableShrike said:

In short, I don’t think Bodyguard has ever really done anything for MMs outside of preventing PvP ganking.

 

What do you guys think about Bodyguard working regardless of pet stance?

 

If bodyguard mode worked in any stances, MMs would be the ultimate Tank Mages. Bodyguard mode triggers when an attack is rolled against the MM, but that attack doesn't have to be successful.

 

Meaning a fully softcapped MM can stand in melee combat, get swung at, and their pets will react, all while enjoying Bodyguard Mode benefits already. If you're standing away from the enemy AND away from your pets, you're doing something wrong, so getting one shot shouldn't be that much of an issue.

 

Yes, high level content makes it dangerous for MMs to be in melee range, but with proper slotting, MMs have the highest effective hitpoints in the game, and should leverage that as best as they can by abusing Bodyguard Mode.

[Lyrium]

The way to fix the issues with BG mode is to create Assist mode, like other games. Pets do not attack unless attacked (like now) OR you attack one mob, then they assist you