Focused Feedback: Power Level Availability Changes

[Marbing]

What else other than Yin and Mantis are going to be affected?

[Ruin Mage]

Looking at strike force/task force levels?

Just Mantis/Yin, unless these changes also makes the other pre-50 TFs easier (FP, Renault, Tarikoss, Mistral) - but it really shouldn't in massive ways.

[Marbing]

2 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Looking at strike force/task force levels?

Just Mantis/Yin, unless these changes also makes the other pre-50 TFs easier (FP, Renault, Tarikoss, Mistral) - but it really shouldn't in massive ways.

 

That's what I thought, I just wanted to clarify the scope of the perceived downside to this change.

[Astralock]

17 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Looking at strike force/task force levels?

Just Mantis/Yin, unless these changes also makes the other pre-50 TFs easier (FP, Renault, Tarikoss, Mistral) - but it really shouldn't in massive ways.

Technically, Admiral Sutter TF and Mortimer Kal SF as well, but they are usually led by someone at least level 40 anyway.

[Brutal Justice]

18 minutes ago, Marbing said:

 

That's what I thought, I just wanted to clarify the scope of the perceived downside to this change.

People do play things outside of TFs that will also be affected.  Striga arcs, Faultline, etc. 

[Marbing]

9 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

People do play things outside of TFs that will also be affected.  Striga arcs, Faultline, etc. 

Right, but the argument was about the TF rewards and speed runs correct? Specific to exemping.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Marbing

[Brutal Justice]

12 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Right, but the argument was about the TF rewards and speed runs correct? 

The heart of the argument is toons exemping and turning level appropriate players into spectators.  

 

I don't think any of us complaining really care that much about time vs reward ratios.  Doesn’t really seem like the crowd that is very concerned with that aspect.  

 

TFs are just the easy and relatable target of discussion for brevity reasons, not the actual heart of the complaints.  

 

Edit:  In fact.  A lot of requests have been to just remove the +5 from exemping.   Which would leave us fairly close to our current teaming situation while still having these QoL changes for level appropriate players.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by Brutal Justice

[Marbing]

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

The heart of the argument is toons exemping and turning level appropriate players into spectators.  

 

I don't think any of us complaining really care that much about time vs reward ratios.  Doesn’t really seem like the crowd that is very concerned with that aspect.  

 

TFs are just the easy and relatable target of discussion for brevity reasons, not the actual heart of the complaints.  

 

Edit:  In fact.  A lot of requests have been to just remove the +5 from exemping.   Which would leave us fairly close to our current teaming situation while still having these QoL changes for level appropriate players.  

I know by responding I am essentially breaking the rules of Feedback threads so to the GM's I apologize. 

That being said. Do we have any actual data yet that supports the argument that this is going to be a huge issue? Is anyone willing to put a team together and test this? I see a lot of people passionately against this, and that is fine, but a lot of this is speculation. While, it is likely accurate that it will make things like Yin faster, I would like to see data about how much faster. Yin (for example) is already speed run into the dirt. So shaving off an extra couple mins from a TF that is already super quick doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. If your concern is about other arcs and such being trivialized by a super decked out 50 exemping down and face rolling the whole arc while you watch then let us see if that is actually a huge issue, because that already happens as is thanks to that +5 you mention. 

I wouldn't mind the +5 being removed. I also wouldn't mind if this change never goes through, nor would I mind if it does. As it stands right now, that is.
 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Marbing

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, Marbing said:

 

That's what I thought, I just wanted to clarify the scope of the perceived downside to this change.

Yeah, this pretty much only impacts the mid 20s in a substantial way.

 

I'm all for it, worst bracket, honestly.

Edited October 7, 2022 by ScarySai

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

Do we have any actual data yet that supports the argument that this is going to be a huge issue? Is anyone willing to put a team together and test this? I see a lot of people passionately against this, and that is fine, but a lot of this is speculation. While, it is likely accurate that it will make things like Yin faster, I would like to see data about how much faster.

This is not some we, the volunteer playtesters, can adequately test in Beta.  You'd need hundreds of runs with a wide variety of teams to even begin to approach valid numbers.  (There's simply too many variables.)  And, as has been explained to you before, that's the problem here - we're attempting to examine the cumulative effects of hundreds and potentially thousands of runs of a wide variety of TF's, SF's, story arcs, and radio/newspaper missions.

Approached as a Fermi problem, it's fairly straightforward to see that over time decreasing the effort (time) needed to complete a task will result in many more completions of that task. 

I mean, if it takes me thirty minutes to finish a task, I can complete it 16 times in an eight hour working day.  If I can reduce that to a 27 minutes - I can complete it 17 times.  A 6% increase in productivity.  (And that's rounding down and ignoring the leftover .779 completion each day.)  Now multiply that by dozens of people working on the same task and multiply it across time....  That 6% starts to add up to Really Big Numbers of increased completions.

And that's where the questions come in.  How will it affect the market?  What are the long term effects of playing into the existing meta that speed and steamrollering is desirable behavior?  Etc...  Etc... Because it's absolutely unquestionable that there will be effects.

[WindDemon21]

19 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

This is not some we, the volunteer playtesters, can adequately test in Beta.  You'd need hundreds of runs with a wide variety of teams to even begin to approach valid numbers.  (There's simply too many variables.)  And, as has been explained to you before, that's the problem here - we're attempting to examine the cumulative effects of hundreds and potentially thousands of runs of a wide variety of TF's, SF's, story arcs, and radio/newspaper missions.

Approached as a Fermi problem, it's fairly straightforward to see that over time decreasing the effort (time) needed to complete a task will result in many more completions of that task. 

I mean, if it takes me thirty minutes to finish a task, I can complete it 16 times in an eight hour working day.  If I can reduce that to a 27 minutes - I can complete it 17 times.  A 6% increase in productivity.  (And that's rounding down and ignoring the leftover .779 completion each day.)  Now multiply that by dozens of people working on the same task and multiply it across time....  That 6% starts to add up to Really Big Numbers of increased completions.

And that's where the questions come in.  How will it affect the market?  What are the long term effects of playing into the existing meta that speed and steamrollering is desirable behavior?  Etc...  Etc... Because it's absolutely unquestionable that there will be effects.

I get this, but I aslo get, how horrible it is waiting till, especially, 35 and 38 for some of those secondary powers. Not to mention, how when they are such demand, things like a /time or /nature controller, it means you have to put your epic powers off till 41 to just start them (most of which lets be honest, need a big rework, especially the hero epics).

 

I'd be more for this change happening, and as a result increasing enemy hp/resistances etc in the 20s so less steamrolling happens, and more fun with more powers happens, while not making it too tough for those that don't get high defenses.

 

Additionally I Have to take a look again, but epics starting at 30 would be a big help in those scenarios I just mentioned, even if the primary/secondary tier 8s remain as they are on live, and bumping patron start level to 30.

[Marbing]

24 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

This is not some we, the volunteer playtesters, can adequately test in Beta.  You'd need hundreds of runs with a wide variety of teams to even begin to approach valid numbers.  (There's simply too many variables.)  And, as has been explained to you before, that's the problem here - we're attempting to examine the cumulative effects of hundreds and potentially thousands of runs of a wide variety of TF's, SF's, story arcs, and radio/newspaper missions.

Approached as a Fermi problem, it's fairly straightforward to see that over time decreasing the effort (time) needed to complete a task will result in many more completions of that task. 

I mean, if it takes me thirty minutes to finish a task, I can complete it 16 times in an eight hour working day.  If I can reduce that to a 27 minutes - I can complete it 17 times.  A 6% increase in productivity.  (And that's rounding down and ignoring the leftover .779 completion each day.)  Now multiply that by dozens of people working on the same task and multiply it across time....  That 6% starts to add up to Really Big Numbers of increased completions.

And that's where the questions come in.  How will it affect the market?  What are the long term effects of playing into the existing meta that speed and steamrollering is desirable behavior?  Etc...  Etc... Because it's absolutely unquestionable that there will be effects.

I understand, man, and I respect your point of view...

What I am saying, however, is (using your numbers as an example) that 6% starts to add up to... 6% more completions. Which would in turn imply a 6% increase in whatever perceived production is happening now. It doesn't matter how large you make the numbers over a years span, 6% would still be 6%. But is that a 6% increase in completion rate for a VERY small subset of the game as a whole? That is the point I am making. How much of the game is impacted? If its mostly just content between lvl 20-25 then that 6% has much less effect on the game than if it were 6% increase in productivity of ALL content.

 

Do you see what I am saying? I know it will have an impact, that isn't debatable, but I don't think we have the data to assume the impact will be anything significant. Especially given the limited examples of what lvl ranges will be significantly impacted. 

 

And there are certainly things that can be done right now to at least hint at what that impact would look like. If in the future it is found you are correct, adjustments can be made at that point in time. Do you think, though, that the negatives far outweigh the benefits of this change?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Marbing
tYPiNg iS HaRD

[Caulderone]

I very much like this.  Getting the secondary tier 8 and 9s earlier is awesome.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Caulderone said:

I very much like this.  Getting the secondary tier 8 and 9s earlier is awesome.

Right, i find that more of an issue than most of the primary tier 8/9s sooner, though does make an impact on scraps/tanks for me for some sets where you want the main ATO procs in those tier 8/9 attacks. But it woudl't make sense to be able to get the secondary tier 8 and 9s, sooner than the primaries lol. And there isn't much that I'd feel too OP about having lots of those powers in the 20s instead of 30s, especially when slots are already really sparce at those levels.

 

As for "exempers will be too powerful" i mean, those level availabilities are a big reason why i only exemp for needed tfs anyway. So this could actually open up more playing via exemplaring too.

[cfarevival]

45 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You'd need hundreds of runs with a wide variety of teams to even begin to approach valid numbers.  (There's simply too many variables.)

 

In a former life, I was an engineer at a company that had far more variables than this game does.  There are ways to obtain numbers without running something hundreds of times.  You simply need to change what you are trying to determine.  For instance, if I am asking "how does this change affect the absolute fastest time possible?" then we will be spending years looking at that, because no one knows what that number originally was, and they certainly aren't going to determine it now.  Instead, we need to just get an overall general idea of what the change could bring.

 

Here is what I am proposing:  A team volunteers to run a TF as it currently stands.  They calculate their time from the moment they begin, until they receive completion awards.  Then that same team goes and runs it in Beta.  They copy the same information, and make it available in the forum.

 

Have several teams do this.  Have the same team do this.  Have the same people, using various toons do this.  It does not matter whatsoever.

 

You will then be able to determine, on a general level, how these changes will affect gameplay.  That is all anyone really needs, because few players are going to feel more than a general impact.  This change does not represent anything that won't be immediately absorbed into normal gameplay.

 

@Marbing  Will someone give this man a raise, please?

Edited October 7, 2022 by cfarevival
I think faster than I type, therefore, I never finish my

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 minutes ago, Marbing said:

It doesn't matter how large you make the numbers over a years span, 6% would still be 6%. But is that a 6% increase in completion rate for a VERY small subset of the game as a whole?

It does not effect a "small subset of the game" - it affects every TF, SF, story arc, and radio or newspaper mission from lvl 21 (the lowest you can exemp/Ouro and have a T9) onwards to level 34 (currently the lowest you can have a T9 fully slotted).  And that's without considering players that are exemped up [into things like the very popular PI radios].

@ScarySai is correct that it mostly effects the mid 20's, but there are effects above and below that range.  And significantly there are effects on one of the most popular TF's in the game.
 

 

15 minutes ago, Marbing said:

It doesn't matter how large you make the numbers over a years span, 6% would still be 6%.

True.  Above a certain minimum sample size, it will remain a significant number no matter how large the base number.
 

 

18 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I know it will have an impact, that isn't debatable, but I don't think we have the data to assume the impact will be anything significant.

We also don't have the numbers to support your assertion that there won't be a significant impact.

[ScarySai]

I wish unfounded 'concerns' would be backed by actual playtesting, rather than baseless assumptions.

 

That's why we have these threads, not for forum pvp.

Edited October 7, 2022 by ScarySai

[cfarevival]

On 10/4/2022 at 4:38 PM, The Curator said:

Secondary Sets (non-Epic ATs)

• Tier 2 powers moved from level 2 to level 1 (character creation)
• Tier 7 powers moved from level 28 to level 24
• Tier 8 powers moved from level 35 to level 28
• Tier 9 powers moved from level 38 to level 30

To be honest, THIS is what we should be talking about.

 

This change alone is going to impact a huge number of players.  I can tell you for a fact that a majority of my toons are forced to take the tier 1 secondary as the first power.  It is a power that I neither want, nor use.  In fact, with the added ability to reject the tier 1 secondary, most of my tanks will instantly get a respec.  All my new blasters will be respec'd.  I will then pwn the entire game and all of COH will be my oyster.

 

You've been warned.  Fear me.

 

Edit:  Hideless stalkers will now be a thing.  That would be fun to test viability.  I probably will take placate over hide on some builds!

Edited October 7, 2022 by cfarevival
I think faster than I type, therefore, I never finish my

[Luminara]

31 minutes ago, cfarevival said:

Here is what I am proposing:  A team volunteers to run a TF as it currently stands.  They calculate their time from the moment they begin, until they receive completion awards.  Then that same team goes and runs it in Beta.  They copy the same information, and make it available in the forum.

 

Have several teams do this.  Have the same team do this.  Have the same people, using various toons do this.  It does not matter whatsoever.

 

You will then be able to determine, on a general level, how these changes will affect gameplay.

 

That sounds suspiciously like... testing.  What do you think this is, a beta?  Do you really expect people to test things?  Good grief, man, don't you realize that they might come to a valid and reasonable conclusion, even if it means having to swallow their pride and admit that they were in error?

 

Madness.  MADNESS, I SAY!

[WindDemon21]

 

27 minutes ago, cfarevival said:

To be honest, THIS is what we should be talking about.

 

This change alone is going to impact a huge number of players.  I can tell you for a fact that a majority of my toons are forced to take the tier 1 secondary as the first power.  It is a power that I neither want, nor use.  In fact, with the added ability to reject the tier 1 secondary, most of my tanks will instantly get a respec.  All my new blasters will be respec'd.  I will then pwn the entire game and all of COH will be my oyster.

 

You've been warned.  Fear me.

 

Edit:  Hideless stalkers will now be a thing.  That would be fun to test viability.  I probably will take placate over hide on some builds!

Joke's aside, I'd still like to see the first 3 tiers of the primary open as an option as well. Again, this especially concerns mind and grav control who can't get their ST hold first and are forced to take powers they don't want, which is even more odd for it being the primary compared to almost all other sets that don't have this problem.

 

Even elec control, focusing on draining a single target with jolting chain instead, I can see use to skip the single target hold and immobilize both so would also be useful.

 

Archery blasters, snap shot and aimed shot are still really poor. Skip both, yes please.

 

Additionally, in these types of scenarios, it would be nice to be able to open pool powers at levels instead of level 4 as well.

 

Example: Recently did a seismic/fire blaster, focusing on blapping. Therefore, did not take rock shards. So after taking shatter, and fire sword. He was forced to take ring of fire at level 2, because he couldn't  take a pool power, and was skipping encase, and rock shards. This is exactly where opening up a pool power at level 2 would save the build from being forced into one of those 3 powers he does not want to take.

 

I could see /storm secondaries not wanting gale + 02 boost both, but not wanting another primary at level 2 as well being helped out by pool powers being open at level 2. And I mean, nothing is going to be OP by having a pool power at level 2 instead of level 4.

Edited October 7, 2022 by WindDemon21

[cfarevival]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

And I mean, nothing is going to be OP by having a pool power at level 2 instead of level 4.

ARE YOU KIDDING!?

 

Do you realize the complete and utter mayhem I could cause having something as unwieldy as KICK at level 2!?  I mean, I might get to level 4 one or even TWO minutes faster than normal!?

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

I get this, but I aslo get, how horrible it is waiting till, especially, 35 and 38 for some of those secondary powers. Not to mention, how when they are such demand, things like a /time or /nature controller, it means you have to put your epic powers off till 41 to just start them (most of which lets be honest, need a big rework, especially the hero epics).

 

I'd be more for this change happening, and as a result increasing enemy hp/resistances etc in the 20s so less steamrolling happens, and more fun with more powers happens, while not making it too tough for those that don't get high defenses.

 

Additionally I Have to take a look again, but epics starting at 30 would be a big help in those scenarios I just mentioned, even if the primary/secondary tier 8s remain as they are on live, and bumping patron start level to 30.

 

Yep, the level 35/38 secondary vs. epic choice is the crunch I find myself in with a lot of my characters.   

 

Pretty much EVERY dominator I might want to play as you finally tend to get the hard hitting snipe in your secondary at level 35 previously.  Yay, finally a good single target range attack chain that you had to wait until level 35 to get!....and then it comes at the same time you can take something like sleet.  This change will make it so much better both in actually getting a ST attack chain at a decent level for a dom, and also being able to take the epic you want when they actually open at 35.

 

Same really for a lot of support secondary sets.  I play a lot of controllers and this will make things a lot smoother for most of them as well, without making them overpowered that I can see.  

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

That sounds suspiciously like... testing.

 

 

[Wavicle]

Specific to Dominators:

Immobilizes are still mostly worthless, so being able to skip the first secondary actually just makes me take a DIFFERENT mostly worthless power.

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Immobilizes are still mostly worthless, so being able to skip the first secondary actually just makes me take a DIFFERENT mostly worthless power.

 

Dom's tier 2 assaults are usually some of the better powers in their sets.  They're melee attacks with high dpa to coax you into thinking of them as a hybrid assault approach.  

 

Bone Smasher available right out of the gate will be awesome!  Dark's t2 is its best dpa power.  Lots of upside on this for doms being able to skip a quickly obsolete power for a very strong one.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Mezmera