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Focused Feedback: Power Level Availability Changes


The Curator
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4 hours ago, The Curator said:

Level Availability Changes

 

Epic Pools

  • Tier 3 powers moved from level 41 to level 38

 

 

Minor issue, but the power description text on all the tier 3 epic powers still says "you must be level 41", even though it seemed to work fine picking them at 38 when I tried it.  Data from while respecing a scrapper.  I'll assume you probably are just not bothering to update those until you decide this change is final, but wanted to point it out just in case. 🙂

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15 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Just tried it and same issue, but still seems to work out.  You'll notice you are still at "level 0" after you pick the secondary and the primary options light up.  

You just end up picking your secondary power first, which is unintuitive but it still works out.

You must have posted right before I edited my post. 😉

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6 hours ago, The Curator said:

Quantum Acceleration and Shadow Slip moved from level 24 to level 26

 

Speaking as a shade: change this to 14 or something, the mid-20s are extremely crowded now with all our must-take powers, and it was always weird to me how our version of fold space unlocks ten more levels before the pool version.

 

It's also weird to me that these are the only two powers in the entire level rework that have their requirements go up.

Edited by ScarySai
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I'll be honest, I am a bit shocked that the developers considered this in their game review. I figured this would get all the "power creep" flags in the world if it were proposed in a suggestions forum, but... I am glad it is here.

 

I truly believe that granting some specific AT combos access to that T8/T9 where at the level 20's an aoe could be well, needed, is an excellent way (with the limitation they can't slot it too well immediately) to allow them to feel more playable before hitting level 32 or 38. 

 

It's a huge improvement to the game overall and I'm glad the community seems largely accepting of the change.

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39 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

It's a huge improvement to the game overall and I'm glad the community seems largely accepting of the change.

It's been less than 8 hours and it's on the same day as the start of the Halloween Event.  The community hasn't even seen this yet.

 

Personally, my mind is blown.  I want to like it, but I am too stunned to really answer yet

 

Also, like everything, it needs testing!

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I just want to thank Faultline and Captain Powerhouse for explaining some of the thoughts that went in to the changes.

 

I've done a bit of testing, but I'll reserve my opinion for when I've done a bit more.

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And builds from the ground up.  While I am excited as fuck for my Invul brute going to have a taunt aura in synapes/mantis im also thinking of stuff like:

All my dominators

What few tanks I have left

My perma hasten defenders

And Resist Physical Damage is a level 47/49 power since its just an IO mule.  The extra freedom allowed from shuffling around a few hours

While Force Bolt sounds lovely, I wont take it until way later or at all because people are forgetting that enemies can resist debuffs and 20% wont be a game breaker for everyone

 

And most of my alts are balanced and built around low level gameplay, now I can whip out my oldass ice/emp, or make some invul scrappers

 

AND BLASTERS

OH GOD

/ENERGY MANIPULATION ENERGY PUNCH LEVEL ONE

/ELEC MANIP CHARGED BRAWL LEVEL ONE

 

I have like 150 characters to to to to even all over and then again,

 

holy crap I can even start making /pain domination characters now that world of pain wont be so out of reach i can probably use it to stack resistances with mercs or enveng[OBG[923TPN'Q

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Well.  Having the option to choose from the first two powers in the secondary will be real nice for a lot of characters. 

 

I agree with the sentiment that some power pools add just as much to the power creep as your main powers so by having some main powers available earlier at the cost of things like Hasten and Leadership powers isn't all that much power creep that it seems it could lead to.  I wouldn't be looking to change most of my characters because of earlier access to powers since I'd still be choosing the same ones just in a different order BUT I will for sure appreciate the option of the t2 power out of the gate.  Overall I like the idea.  

 

Excuse me while I go look at all of the characters I will be looking to respec.  

Edited by Mezmera
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Huge buff to some defenders, doms, tanks (bye jab!), poison as a secondary, etc.

I think blasters make out the best though - at least for me. 

 

Not sure defenders need a boost as they are already pretty desirable relative to corrs and tanks definitely don't need a buff.

On the fence, definitely a nice quality of life boost, but...

 

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omg and my controllers.  choking cloud available that low to set up containment on my fully damage slotted fire/radi controller

is that some fucking level 26 t8s available at 22 which can be exemplared down to 17?  WORMHOLE IN POSITRON?!  BONFIRE IN POSITRON?!

 

MASTERMIND PETS FUCK THOSE AS WELL

COMMANDO AT LEVEL 17!

PLANT CONTROL CREEPERS THAT IS SLOTTED FOR DAMAGE AT 17~!

illusion and mind getting their secondary controls at 17

 

i cant fucking even so many respecs to happily do

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Mostly I'm gonna say these changes are "neat;" I'm not as much worried about it shaking up low level balance. There's a thin level range where that's going to matter. And sure, VEATs can get attacks slightly earlier but they could largely already get a full attack chain by about level 12 anyway.

But the change to secondaries is preeeeetty big for a lot of builds. There are a lot of tier 1 powers I'd love to skip. Historically, not being able to skip the t1 has in fact dissuaded me from playing Defenders, Tankers, sometimes even support sets like Cold or Elec. I have, multiple times, looked at a build and then just gave up on it because I couldn't skip a power I wasn't going to use and it was taking up precious build space. And some sets have just always come with a crappy tier 1 power I've just shunted onto the 3rd or 4th bar and accepted it as a reality of life (looking at you, Web Grenade). This major downside will no longer exist and that is SUPER rad.

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11 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Pretty much my reaction.  As someone who never power levels and only does it the "slow" way, this is amazing.  Love it.

 

this is a huge boost to those who love playing the game at lower levels, it opens up so many powersets 

 

@Xiddo

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I'm not super fussed about the level change of powers (I hope the bug I reported earlier was just birthing pangs though). I'm also not worried about 'early level' power creep since I'm solidly on the camp that we should have all our powers when exemped (hey, other games manage this).

 

'Early power creep' is not something testable anyway.

 

The devs being able to lick the problem of secondaries being forced to take the T1 is the real tour de force here and such a magnificent QoL (or power creep, sure).

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2 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Mostly I'm gonna say these changes are "neat;" I'm not as much worried about it shaking up low level balance. There's a thin level range where that's going to matter. And sure, VEATs can get attacks slightly earlier but they could largely already get a full attack chain by about level 12 anyway.

But the change to secondaries is preeeeetty big for a lot of builds. There are a lot of tier 1 powers I'd love to skip. Historically, not being able to skip the t1 has in fact dissuaded me from playing Defenders, Tankers, sometimes even support sets like Cold or Elec. I have, multiple times, looked at a build and then just gave up on it because I couldn't skip a power I wasn't going to use and it was taking up precious build space. And some sets have just always come with a crappy tier 1 power I've just shunted onto the 3rd or 4th bar and accepted it as a reality of life (looking at you, Web Grenade). This major downside will no longer exist and that is SUPER rad.

 

Definitely.  Big ones for me are controller /traps with control sets that already have immobilizes, which is most (bye bye web grenade like you said).  Also psi assault for doms, psi dart always felt so pitiful.  Mind probe is so nice instead.  

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9 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

If you do find some situation that becomes game breaking, potentially some thing that was never meant to be (maybe nukes become usable in a task force that was obviously never meant to have anything nuke things away) please bring up those situations so we can evaluate the content. Might not change immediately, but we will look at them.

 

Maybe bring back inner radii on Blaster, Corruptor, and Defender nukes.

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12 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Pretty much my reaction.  As someone who never power levels and only does it the "slow" way, this is amazing.  Love it.

 

My PB and Dom are going to have to go through a real re-think (in a good way) but this is very exciting. Yes, there is a little bit of power creep here but - a Yin with FS is going to be wild - it should be fun. Especially the secondary powers being a choice: Mind Probe/Bone Smasher/Incinerate as my first power? Let's gooooo.

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15 hours ago, The Curator said:

Secondary Sets (non-Epic ATs)

  • Tier 2 powers moved from level 2 to level 1 (character creation)

 

Of this entire section of the Page update, the part quoted above is the only part that strikes me as necessary.  The rest of it, doesn't sit well with me.

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I don't see powercreep at all. Now I can either take Hasten or my T8 at 22 but not both. Not only that but since powers are now much more bunched up, there are not enough slots in the early game to kit them out.

 

I'm unconvinced this will 'break the game' or that power creep is happening. If anything, this makes planning builds harder because there are more choices at the low levels and optimization will be more challenging (i.e. fun for me).

 

It's not like the blaster's nuke at 26 is slotted or the blaster has 200% recharge already to spam their nukes. It also means that blaster probably doesn't have Weave yet so she's squishier..

 

Until some hard numbers come in proving these changes power creep some content out or make certain builds/playstyles obsolete, I'm going to be hyped for this change.

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4 hours ago, Sovera said:

'Early power creep' is not something testable anyway.


It's easily testable by those of us who play in the mid levels and don't rush to 50.  (Me?  I've only got two 50's out of twenty five odd characters - my two signature characters.)  It's also easily testable by exemping down into a mid level Task or Strike Force.  (Given the number of people who exemp down for the Weekly Strike Targets, this is particularly important to test.  There's a reason why previous posts have been excited about Yin.)

That being said, I have a lvl 29 bots/ff MM that I've been running heavy on Brainstorm to test those changes.  Went ahead and unlocked XP and popped up to 30 to pick up Upgrade Robot (rather than messing about with a respec), and it's a pretty significant power boost.  Between that and the upgrades to 'bots she's markedly more lethal.  She's got quite a bit of solo work left to do at 29, and I'll definitely be respecing her when this goes Live.

 

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20 hours ago, The Curator said:

Tier 2 powers moved from level 2 to level 1 (character creation)

This means I might not have to pick undesired secondary powers:  I think I need some private time:

 

Storm Kick instead of Ki Push on my DP/MC Blaster

Sting of the Wasp instead of the Dart on my DP/Ninja Blaster

 

So after Edit.  The feedback here is that the idea of expanding the options of the secondary power selection at creation really is a great idea and totally harmless in the scope of . . . well anything.  The other secondary level adjustments make sense to me in that I always thought that primaries and secondaries should have always shared the same level availability; leave it to the player to pick.  And that is the only quibble I have.  Primaries should be left where they are, you should have to learn to play (that specific character and their specific powers) a little before you get that big old Tier 9.

 

Edited by High_Beam

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  • Game Master

1. ASSUME GOOD FAITH. The devs do not have a dastardly plan to destroy the game, nor are they trying to spite you personally. Acting as if they do is not useful feedback.

 

2. BE CONSTRUCTIVE. Going on about how the devs are idiots and you have the One True Vision for the game is not helpful; trying to engage with the changes and the reasons given is.

 

3. BE SUBSTANTIVE. If you want to say how great something is and nothing else, there's a thumbs up react. On the other hand, if all you really want to say is "this whomps! you suck!", the thumbs down react exists.

 

4. DON'T JUST READ THE PATCH NOTES, TEST THE CHANGES. Even if you're sure you are going to hate something, it's best to get some actual data from it rather than just go off a gut feeling.

 

5. DON'T GIVE FEEDBACK ON OTHER PEOPLE'S FEEDBACK. You're here to discuss and debate the changes with the devs, not each other. The devs are big people (Huge, even) and can stand up for themselves.

 

Violations of these guidelines or the CoC will result in hidden posts; repeated or flagrant violations may lead to harsher penalties. We will be keeping a pretty close eye on any points of particular conflict, so keep these in mind.

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17 minutes ago, Voltak said:



Again, being available at lower levels mean two things 
1. Nukes - They will do lower dmg.  Dmg is scaled according to level.   If you are worried about nukes being OP, then we should remove nukes entirely. 
2. You have lesser slots at lower levels. So, not only are you doing lower dmg because your level determines how much dmg you do, but you always have less enhancements, so your powers are enhanced even less. 

I don't see how this is all "working against me". 
Help me out 

1.   Lower level mobs have lower hp and lower resists.  Your nuke may have lower numbers but now it’s in a part of the game designed specifically without those nukes.  Use assassin strike at lower levels with no slots and see if it takes a larger chunk of a hp bar from a boss than one at higher levels and slotted.  It does.  

 

2.   Again.  People exemping don’t have this issue.  They are just flat out more powerful than they used to be.  They were already an issue.  Now they’re worse.

 

edit:   I was working on this reply during the dev warning and post purge.  Just FYI. 

Edited by Brutal Justice
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18 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

I understand your concern. This thought did not escape our minds. For the most part, though, players at those level ranges are still limited by power slots. Someone that decides to start taking many of these powers earlier is likely going to have to make a harder choice by taking those instead of many actual sources of power creep, like leadership, hasten, fighting pool, and so on.

 

Some builds will indeed become a bit more powerful, but this mostly applies to ones that were comparatively weaker to their peers in progression. 

 

Picking many of the capstone powers by passing on many of the other powers in the path there will also result, at those level ranges, with plenty of idle play due to not having enough abilities nor the recharge to make those abilities cycle fast enough. Either way, we will be monitoring things. Difficulty is something we have been looking at for a long time and trying to adjust over time, even if not directly, we always are trying to create foundations for future changes that will get us there.

 

If you do find some situation that becomes game breaking, potentially some thing that was never meant to be (maybe nukes become usable in a task force that was obviously never meant to have anything nuke things away) please bring up those situations so we can evaluate the content. Might not change immediately, but we will look at them.

 

As for everyone else, please respect others opinions.

 

Just to add in one more, mitigating, aspect, the most important IO sets are not available until 27.  That, with lack of slots, will limit the ability to slot IO sets thus limiting the amount of bonuses.  Also remember, having the main powers available sooner means that power pool powers are not being taken.  This will result in may players putting off things like the Fighting Pool and not getting much needed defense and resistance until later.  Dominators generally need Hasten, and many builds rely on pool powers to get Luck of the Gambler Increase recharge in as much as practical.  

 

 

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19 hours ago, Faultline said:

 

The live progression has gaps at levels 22, 24 and 30 where you can't pick any new powers from the primary and secondary. They now are 22 = Primary T8, 24 = Secondary T7, 30 = Secondary T9 so you always have something new from the main pools to pick.

 

Personally, I've always *appreciated* those gaps, I have to say. Usually because there's been something else picked up (say, a travel power) and those levels have let me "catch up" if I needed on the primary and secondary. Or it's let me finally have a place to grab a pool if I've felt like I've had so many required picks up to those points.

 

This just ... kind of feels like "yay, people can min/max more easily now because that was so difficult before...oh, wait..."

 

(Yes, I'm one of those who finds shoving power availability down to be *even earlier* frankly guts some content. We've *already* had this happen on live once.  When we had the auto-exemp giving +5 levels of power? Took some of the fun out of Siren's Call, for instance, and made Bloody Bay have an even bigger level/power disparity. So... yeah, generally not... actually all that thrilled about this.)

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