Hop on over to the beta server to test out some Page 5 power updates!

[Glacier Peak]

10 minutes ago, Ukase said:

You've missed the point. Why is this proposed change on the test server? 
Because "they" decided, without any consultation from any of the player that are paying for the servers that it should be changed. 

That is my bone of contention. They didn't ask for insights. They didn't share why they felt the need to propose the change. What is the end goal? They just code it and expect us to determine if something bad happens. The change itself is bad. I tested it. My recharge when from 8 seconds to 13. That is a bad result of a proposed change. 

I am pissed because they wasted time on this, choosing some arbitrary value for a greater recharge time when the time could have been spent doing things that needed changing. This did not. 

You do what you like. But I'm not giving anything until they explain their rationale behind these proposed changes that they've invested time into coding. And you can bet there was some testing before it hit Brainstorm. They've known about this since before page 4 hit. They could have asked then, but they chose not to because you seem to think the opinions of the players aren't worth considering. We will have to disagree on that. My opinion is every bit as valid as yours. 

You missed the point. They don't need to explain it to you, it's THEIR server. They can do whatever they want. And whether a player pays or not, that has no impact on the value of their feedback. 

 

And good lord man, WE, you and I are both players. WE both are a part of this community. Our feedback is equally valid. Let me break it down in clear capital letters for you. 

 

I DON'T THINK NOR HAVE I EVER SAID THAT THE OPINIONS OF PLAYERS AREN'T WORTH CONSIDERING.

[Ruin Mage]

16 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Because "they" decided, without any consultation from any of the player that are paying for the servers that it should be changed. 

And that right there is the crux of the issue.

Entitlement.

Not a single soul is entitled to a thing simply because we donate some of our money to help keep the servers alive.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I am pissed because they wasted time on this

Good thing its their time and its their decision on what to use their time on.

[Ukase]

52 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

And that right there is the crux of the issue.
Entitlement.
Not a single soul is entitled to a thing simply because we donate some of our money to help keep the servers alive.

Good thing its their time and its their decision on what to use their time on.

You're certainly right - my post does scream entitlement. 
But their lack of a post screams it louder. 

They accept the donation and do whatever they want. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this is poor form. You seem to think not a single soul is entitled to a thing. I vehemently disagree. I believe we are OWED transparency. Remember, we aren't getting paid either! How much time have all of us invested in various characters and then suddenly, we may find our characters changed to the point where they're not as they were. The more time a player puts into a character, the more you can expect that player to be irritated, if not outraged. To think any other way is to be shortsighted of human nature. 

I remember when Jimmy use to write paragraphs explaining where things were at and where they were going. Now...we get no explanations, no musings, no details about a direction of any kind. Why are you okay with that? 

I completely get I'm a guest here. But my money has helped pay for that. I certainly do feel entitled to know why they're trying to change the way I play and suddenly, what I play. 
Pardon me. Why they're proposing to change the way I play, and if the change goes through, what I play, if I even continue to play. 
 

Perhaps many of you are okay with sailing blindly to some unknown destination. I want to know where things are headed. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Ukase

[arcane]

You guys are fucking hopeless.

 

These are 100% proven facts:

 

(1) We know for a fact they read and integrate feedback.

 

(2) We know for a fact Burn was bugged.

 

(3) We know for a fact Irradiated Ground was bugged.

[Xiddo]

46 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Entitlement.

Not a single soul is entitled to a thing simply because we donate some of our money to help keep the servers alive.

 

I dunno man, I kinda agree with @Ukase. I would like the devs to be able to talk more openly about thinking/direction/aims, but not because of anyone's cash donations etc or because of any obligation to run stuff past us (as @Glacier Peak said it is their server and we live in it), but just because we had an environment where that kinda of relationship was encouraged. I'm not 100% that its entitled to want to chat to em, I guess it depends on how we frame the conversation. ATM I suspect things come across as a little toxic sometimes.

[I appreciate this this sounds a bit like that Mean Girls quote:
 "I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school. I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy."

  ... but here we are]

 

[Ruin Mage]

1 minute ago, Xiddo said:

I would like the devs to be able to talk more openly about thinking/direction/aims

As would I, but not when we have people going

"WHY DIDN'T THEY CONSULT US?"

No active game developer consults before making changes - not even all the time. It's not a standard.

[Xiddo]

Just now, Shadeknight said:

As would I, but not when we have people going

"WHY DIDN'T THEY CONSULT US?"

No active game developer consults before making changes - not even all the time. It's not a standard.

 

Fairs. I think ultimately we'd all like the best for this old game, we just have different opinions of what 'best' is.
I guess the 'active game developer' vs 'volunteer devs' difference could be a positive too. If done right, the freedom of being able to consult the players without the worry of tanking the company's stock price is quite freeing. But it is impossible to make something that everyone likes.

 

Then again, I'm saying this as someone who is largely excited and (mostly) unaffected by the changes (bar the powers availability one), and I'm generally just a relaxed person. I thought I'd quit when ED came in and my imp army died, I'm sure I can roll with this. Its only a game 🙂 

[Ruin Mage]

Personally, I'd rather see what the actual people who know the code be able to develop their vision unhindered w/ a chance for our feedback to tweak or change ideas. I don't need a roadmap, but I know that isn't some universal stance.

It is only a game and there are alternative servers if a single (or more) change whips someone up so bad. That's my takeaway at least.

[TalynDerre]

Look, man, I'm just thrilled that there is a global Sentinel damage buff, and that they have revamped Mercs.  Those were literally the two things I've been begging for (besides more military-themed costume parts, hint, hint) and now I am getting them.

 

Today is a good day.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

(1) We know for a fact they read and integrate feedback.

 

(2) We know for a fact Burn was bugged.

 

(3) We know for a fact Irradiated Ground was bugged.

I know the procs and such were bugged, but was Burn's recharge really that bugged?

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Without_Pause said:

I know the procs and such were bugged, but was Burn's recharge really that bugged?

Others have pointed this out in the feedback thread, but since these are proposed changes, it's likely that based on testing there will be changes before the final product hits live. 

[Digirium]

Well, since Page 4 I've been waiting for the "other boot to drop" and now we have it with Page 5 (beta).

 

The boot landed hard on those that AFK farm. Fiery melee attacks with defence debuffs, Burn recharge nerf. If Page 5 is about powers then may be Maneuvers and Weave need some DDR protection added? I AFK farm to fund builds (it's not 100% AFK, I press some buttons sometimes) but I have problems with active farming as I'm getting old and my hands and fingers can't take as much of a beating nowadays as they used to be able to do.

 

May be over time a way will be figured out to overcome this issue.

 

There is a lot I like about Page 5 f.ex Sentinels finally receiving some help, plus a lot more.

 

I think it would be great if the HC devs and their GM minions didn't stifle/hide debate and communicated their goals and reasons more openly than they do at the moment. Their aggression level against player opinion is oppressive - the Karens/Kens don't help either.

[Ruin Mage]

The only posts that get hidden are those that are not helpful/those that break the rules of the beta forums, to be fair.

They want feedback, not circular argumentation on someone's feedback - which some people can't help themselves.

[Oklahoman]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Perhaps many of you are okay with sailing blindly to some unknown destination. I want to know where things are headed.

 

I'm feeling a lot of what you are saying. I said once before I feel like from a development standpoint we are still operating as if this is a retail game.

 

 

[lemming]

I just assume this group of changes were in the Page 4 pile and weren't ready for last release.

As someone who used to program a game, feedback from players is good, but has to be taken with a grain of salt.  You should always get feedback from different points of view.  It's sorta like trying to edit your own writing, you'll miss stuff. 

 

So far, my only complaint is that I need to respec a bunch of characters to take advantage of any of the changes.  Though I am thinking of working on something to help with that, at least the tray stuff.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Oklahoman said:

 

I'm feeling a lot of what you are saying. I said once before I feel like from a development standpoint we are still operating as if this is a retail game.

 

 

Thats been my opinion too, but I like to remind folks:

 

This is not a retail game.

 

We can benefit from realizing this. Blindly defending the devs wont keep this game here, not to say being overly negative is helpful, but I think a lot of the more uh…vocal positive supporters, yeah let’s call em that, can seriously calm down.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Seed22

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Thats been my opinion too, but I like to remind folks:

 

This is not a retail game.

 

We can benefit from realizing this. Blindly defending the devs wont keep this game here, not to say being overly negative is helpful, but I think a lot of the more uh…vocal positive supporters, yeah let’s call em that, can seriously calm down.

I think we can all agree that policing what others can say on an internet message board is best left to the GMs.

[catsi563]

So Illusion doms neat

 

Sentinels get a big buff

 

MMS now this is interesting

 

Ninjas were always glass cannons soft as cotton but kick like a mule. now they have actual damage mittigation and hit even harder

Bots were Always tough but now have real reistance and heals which add in FFs defense boost means Bots FF is going to be near god tier

Mercs get a long awaited buff

Necro Dark is going to be very strong

 

Fire farming just got a lot more difficult need to take it slower and be more aware of cooldowns with IG not proccing as often and burn being slower

 

should be very interesting

 

also builds will change a lot, MMs specifically due to the need to do more then just use a single rechange in the upgrade powers, Now you have to actually consider anywhere from 2-5 slots for a set for each to maximize the buff potential

Edited October 6, 2022 by catsi563

[Glacier Peak]

7 minutes ago, catsi563 said:

So Illusion doms neat

 

Sentinels get a big buff

 

MMS now this is interesting

 

Ninjas were always glass cannons soft as cotton but kick like a mule. now they have actual damage mittigation and hit even harder

Bots were Always tough but now have real reistance and heals which add in FFs defense boost means Bots FF is going to be near god tier

Mercs get a long awaited buff

Necro Dark is going to be very strong

 

Fire farming just got a lot more difficult need to take it slower and be more aware of cooldowns with IG not proccing as often and burn being slower

 

should be very interesting

 

also builds will change a lot, MMs specifically due to the need to do more then just use a single rechange in the upgrade powers, Now you have to actually consider anywhere from 2-5 slots for a set for each to maximize the buff potential

Yeah the ninja crits are exciting! I've not ever played an MM, but I'm excited for the attention they're getting for what is to come. 

[Ukase]

So, after having some much needed food, I've thought about this. It irks me a bit that I had to do that, when they could have just stated it from the outset. But, I suppose my acting like a small child, lashing out at what I do not understand does not inspire them with confidence. 

So, I apologize to anyone I insulted or outright offended, either by accident or on purpose. And given my obtuse nature, that could be just about any and everyone. 

It would seem that the reason behind this "proposed" change is simply the next step in an aim to prevent afk farming. It's not entirely that they detest afk-farmers - it's there are a bad apple or two that are using the option for sinister purposes, or they might. I'm not really sure. They didn't do it last patch because if they did, there would have been even more screams and cries - as if 40 some-odd pages of pissed off people weren't enough. 

I am still irritated. I still feel the powers developers should chime in once a month on what they're thinking and which way they're going. It IS owed to us. That is not entitlement, that is getting what we paid for. What would be the harm? A lot of verbiage, sure. But also a lot of ideas that they may have never considered. 

Many counsels assure victory. 

 

[Glacier Peak]

5 minutes ago, Ukase said:

So, after having some much needed food, I've thought about this. It irks me a bit that I had to do that, when they could have just stated it from the outset. But, I suppose my acting like a small child, lashing out at what I do not understand does not inspire them with confidence. 

So, I apologize to anyone I insulted or outright offended, either by accident or on purpose. And given my obtuse nature, that could be just about any and everyone. 

It would seem that the reason behind this "proposed" change is simply the next step in an aim to prevent afk farming. It's not entirely that they detest afk-farmers - it's there are a bad apple or two that are using the option for sinister purposes, or they might. I'm not really sure. They didn't do it last patch because if they did, there would have been even more screams and cries - as if 40 some-odd pages of pissed off people weren't enough. 

I am still irritated. I still feel the powers developers should chime in once a month on what they're thinking and which way they're going. It IS owed to us. That is not entitlement, that is getting what we paid for. What would be the harm? A lot of verbiage, sure. But also a lot of ideas that they may have never considered. 

Many counsels assure victory. 

I appreciate this post. I'm still unsure why it is thought that anything is owed to the players. Is that described somewhere in writing? Is it just based on someone's beliefs? I know I'm not owed anything and that the server could shut down tomorrow without telling anyone. It wouldn't upset or surprise me in the slightest. I wouldn't want that to happen, mind you - I'm just a realist and I'm not entitled to more than anyone else in this superb community. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[Ruin Mage]

8 minutes ago, Ukase said:

It IS owed to us. That is not entitlement, that is getting what we paid for.

It is entitlement. We are not paying for a service. I do hate to break it to you, but its donations not payments. The money doesn't go to the developers, but to other services. This does not owe us anything and never has nor never will as a standard. If this were a typical pay-to-play (subscription) type game environment I might sway the other way.

They could easily just turn off the servers of their own free will. This is their playground more than it is ours, but we are allowed to be here.  They do, by the grace of goodness, sometimes allow our voices to influence their design. This is how it works, and sometimes we get thrown a good bone for it. This is how any private server works for any game - WoW being the most prevalent. We are and always have been at the whims of the HC team not vice versa.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Ukase said:

What would be the harm? A lot of verbiage, sure. But also a lot of ideas that they may have never considered. 

Consulting the community is not a general standard and has never been a standard across games. There's a very good reason for this - boiled down to the terminology of "Armchair Developer".

The amount of feedback we are allowed seems fine enough to me - any more and I think we'd be worse off or with a much slower patch cadence then we have now. My evidence for this is Patch Note Readers + the Suggestions & Feedback forum. Plus the last page. It's clear and evident by those three things that leaning more into the community would be a bad thing.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Shadeknight

[Aracknight]

3 hours ago, Xiddo said:

 

[I appreciate this this sounds a bit like that Mean Girls quote:
 "I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school. I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy."

  ... but here we are]

 

[Aracknight]

Passion is admirable.  However, when people call for Sentinels to be abolished or cancelled because they are pointless due to a lack of damage, then, when buffed, scream about power creep, it becomes difficult to reconcile.

[SeraphimKensai]

Irradiated ground I knew was coming. Burn though seemed without merit as adding further recharge into it just seems counter to Fire Armor. That said maybe I could live with a balance of adding more max targets to it if they want to increase the recharge, but realistically that proposed change seems as I said without merit.

 

Yes I would love transparency into proposed changes, hell maybe even a Developer AMA where they answer questions on Discord or the forums for those of us without ears. 

 

Im not calling out anyone specifically but some of the comments in this thread and some others I've seen lately there's been some pretty vicious posts lately on these forums and the crazy thing is it's among a lot of us forum vets that have been around for years. We're better than that folks.

 

Much love.