Is changing the power levels power creep?

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

The Superman issue is with his power level.  When he’s there, there is no reason for the rest  for the justice league to be there.  

 

The inverse is also an issue.  If the rest of the league can handle the situation, there is no reason for Superman to be there.  

 

This is already an issue with exemplared toons joining your missions or TFs.  Lowering the availability level of the top tier powers compounds this issue when somebody exempts down and joins your team.  That one person joins the fight and now you feel pointless.  It makes for bad story telling.  It makes for not fun games.  

 

If they follow through with this, which I am sure they will, they need to remove the +5 from exemplaring.  I want to be Batman.  I don’t want to be Batman on a team with Superman.

Holy hells! We agree?!

 

Edit: Though depending on my AT and who is joining, it feels more like being normal civilian teaming with Superman. "I'm so helpful! I got to attack a single enemy once before the entire room of spawns was defeated! I'm so good!"

Edited October 6, 2022 by Rudra

[golstat2003]

10 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

The Superman issue is with his power level.  When he’s there, there is no reason for the rest  for the justice league to be there.  

 

The inverse is also an issue.  If the rest of the league can handle the situation, there is no reason for Superman to be there.  

 

This is already an issue with exemplared toons joining your missions or TFs.  Lowering the availability level of the top tier powers compounds this issue when somebody exempts down and joins your team.  That one person joins the fight and now you feel pointless.  It makes for bad story telling.  It makes for not fun games.  

 

If they follow through with this, which I am sure they will, they need to remove the +5 from exemplaring.  I want to be Batman.  I don’t want to be Batman on a team with Superman.

 

Except if the main threat is kryptonite or magic . . . then yeah the rest of the league is VERY MUCH often needed. I would keep comic books out of balance discussions, as the way writers write weakness or situations doesn't really always have a clear analogue to games like this.

[Brutal Justice]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Except if the main threat is kryptonite or magic . . . then yeah the rest of the league is VERY MUCH often needed. I would keep comic books out of balance discussions, as the way writers write weakness or situations doesn't really always have a clear analogue to games like this.

Yes, thank you, we all know that.  It’s not Superman.  It’s “Superman”.  

[Brutal Justice]

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Though depending on my AT and who is joining, it feels more like being normal civilian teaming with Superman. "I'm so helpful! I got to attack a single enemy once before the entire room of spawns was defeated! I'm so good!"

That sounds so fun!   Can you share your build?!

[Mai Retsama]

Let's try the Socratic Method on this, and see if it gets us anywhere.

 

What is the purpose of minimum level requirements on powers? Why should they not all be unlocked at Level 1, and allow players the choice to pick whatever power they want, whenever they want?

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Except if the main threat is kryptonite or magic . . . then yeah the rest of the league is VERY MUCH often needed. I would keep comic books out of balance discussions, as the way writers write weakness or situations doesn't really always have a clear analogue to games like this.

The point is that unless you want to door sit, players want to actually play. And being as effective as Robin throwing foam birdarangs while Superman and Wonder Woman stomp the baddies is not a fun way to play. We already have that problem with the +5 exemplar boost. With lower level nukes and other high tier powers being available even earlier, anyone not exemplared on that team is less than useless.

 

Have Superman join your team in a world with no kryptonite and magic rendered less than effective against him as several end game builds already are. Superman with his full sun god power on your... someone give me a super group name that is not a primary like the League and deals with more street level threats than world ending ones. Imagine how frustrated those heroes would feel as they get to just stand there and watch as Superman walks through and takes down everything before any of them can even react to attack the baddies. Can't imagine it? Be a non-50 and have a 50 join your team, let alone an incarnate. Then come back and tell me how fun the game is when you're relegated to spectator because the exemplared character is tossing nukes around like it's going out of style faster than you can fire your regular attacks.

[Mai Retsama]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

someone give me a super group name that is not a primary like the League and deals with more street level threats than world ending ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defenders_(miniseries)

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Mai Retsama said:

Let's try the Socratic Method on this, and see if it gets us anywhere.

 

What is the purpose of minimum level requirements on powers? Why should they not all be unlocked at Level 1, and allow players the choice to pick whatever power they want, whenever they want?

You're not in a position to call yourself the teacher. Why don't you instead explain why all powers should be unlocked at level 1? All powers have an increasing amount of power as you move up the tiers. Not damage, power as in what they are capable of doing. That is effect, size of effect, associated damage, and incidental or supplementary effects. No super ever started his/her career by being able to blow up in an inferno at will and then learn how to toss a minor fire bolt to injure any enemy sometime later on. It is always some low or moderate effect that the character progressively masters and improves.

 

(The exception being guns. Whatever the character can afford or get his/her hands on is available for use. However, they often have to build up the resources such as weapons dealers to get the bigger, better weapons unless they are super wealthy like Wayne and Stark. And even in their cases, their tools, gadgets, and weapons show a progression in capability as better versions are researched and produced.)

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Mai Retsama said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defenders_(miniseries)

Thanks. Now have Gladiator pop in and join them. (Edit: Or Silver Surfer.)

Edited October 6, 2022 by Rudra

[El D]

On one hand, I'll readily admit I can see the reasoning behind the 'remove the +5 for Exemplaring if this change goes through.' That increase in power access for outleveled characters would already be inherently curbed by the revised progression rate, which was basically what the +5 was meant to solve in the first place when exemplaring to older content (well, that and making older content go by faster). On the other hand, if teaming with outleveled characters is seriously that much of an issue, I'd figure the immediate solution there is just not invite them to the team in the first place. To branch off of the 'I don't want to be Batman on a team with Superman' thing, the option is there to just not invite Superman and stick with Nightwing, Bat Girl, Red Hood, etc. As for getting stuck with them on someone else's team... <shrug> Teammate curation is the prerogative of the player who forms the team.

 

IMO, there should be some kind of incentive to playing through lower-level content on a higher level-character. Otherwise there's no point to bringing them at all, and progressing through content ends up effectively becoming a gated range rather than an constant sense of improvement (even if said improvements are occasionally minimized to retain a sense of level appropriate challenge). 'This is the range at which this character is 100% useful. If this character plays content beneath this range, their progression up to this point will mean nothing' really puts a cramp in the whole 'team up with anyone at any time' thing that Super Sidekicking encourages.

[Rudra]

Your comment argues against itself. The whole team up with anyone at any time thing that Super Sidekicking encourages is shot to hell when the response to god tier characters making low tier heroes superfluous is to not team with those players/characters. What happened to 'team with anyone at any time' when the response is either be useless or don't team with those other players, including when they are friends you want to spend time with? Do I now have to tell my friends what characters they are allowed to use when we play together? Or what builds those characters are allowed to have to team with me? I won't do it.

 

Exemplaring was a good thing to put in the game. Exemplaring while retaining all your enhancements and up to +5 levels of powers was the bad idea. Now we're looking at exemplaring with all your enhancements, +5 levels of powers, and the high tier powers are available at levels they were never meant to be used at against foes that have no means of dealing with them. So a bad situation is made worse.

 

I'm already loathe to ask for help when I'm up against a +2 or +3 EB I can't fight while solo because the game won't or can't spawn the EBs at the mission level. Too often getting help results in me feeling like Office Worker A as Superman comes crashing in to... say change the printer cartridge. It's like "That was my job, and Superman had to come do it for me. Maybe I need to find a different line of work." It's not fun to be saved by another. It is even less fun to be unable to contribute meaningfully when you're supposed to also be a super. And the response is just don't team with them? Just tell my friends who only play their maxed out characters "Sorry, my characters that I prefer playing are all low to mid level and I don't want to feel useless, so I'm not going to play with you."?

[Brutal Justice]

Telling people to choose who they play with is such a dumb statement.  My list is a short list. There is only one person on it.  That person?  Anybody.  

 

I have chosen.

 

There is also only one thing I want you to bring.  What’s that one thing?   Anything.  

 

I disagree with a lot of people on the forums from time to time.  There is only 1 person on my ignore list.  Who is it?  Nobody.  

 

See where this is going?

 

I might disagree in a forum post but I will gladly team and be friendly in game.  Exclusion exists in the game but it’s not good for the game.  It’s not part of the CoH culture and never should be.  

 

I’ll continue to run PuGs.  I’ll continue to roll the dice.  Sometimes it’s a 20 minute Tinpex.   Sometimes it’s a 40 minute Tinpex.   1 hour Synapse, 2 hour Synapse.  

 

I have chosen!  

[Coyotedancer]

19 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

I still think buffing enemies is the better way to go than nerfing around the byproduct of updates from 3 games and 20+ major patches.

 

If you buff all the goons to counter high-end builds you make them absolutely awful for anyone who ISN'T running one of those min/maxed nightmare characters. You just can't "design for the high end" while forgetting that the mid-ranks and low-end "running on SOs or Commons only"-players have to exist in the same space, and will face the same opposition.

[Sirius.Games]

57 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

If you buff all the goons to counter high-end builds you make them absolutely awful for anyone who ISN'T running one of those min/maxed nightmare characters. You just can't "design for the high end" while forgetting that the mid-ranks and low-end "running on SOs or Commons only"-players have to exist in the same space, and will face the same opposition.

This buff is in context of buffing all characters by allowing earlier power picks which was the onus of OP. If you get your T9 at 26 why shouldn't the enemy? It has nothing to do with high end builds.

 

My point is that enemies should be buffed in tandem instead of nerfing something on a PC.

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Sirius.Games said:

This buff is in context of buffing all characters by allowing earlier power picks which was the onus of OP. If you get your T9 at 26 why shouldn't the enemy? It has nothing to do with high end builds.

 

My point is that enemies should be buffed in tandem instead of nerfing something on a PC.

 

One of the complaints about this is that it will make the experience of having exemplared 50s joining a lower level team "even worse".  That (and as a general reaction to any "Just make the goons harder!"-type suggestion) is why I brought builds into it. An exemped 50 with attuned sets like I use on my support characters, who were explicitly designed in some cases with the idea of running with mid-level teams in mind, aren't really a fair balance point. A native-level character in the 30s who's running a well-engineered set-build isn't either, really, if most of their at-level team-mates are rocking a bunch of SOs and maybe a couple of specials or procs. For those less well-built types, having a stronger power pick at a lower level might be a Good Thing, where it could seem like over-kill on the better equipped one. 

 

The point is just that when it comes to what's an acceptable set of buffs for the goon squad, we have to consider that it's a pretty complicated landscape out there in-game. The playing field isn't level on the player side, and really CAN'T be with all the variations possible between individual characters. Designing for the high end leaves the low end struggling. That's not a fun thing.     

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[BrandX]

Should realize as well, people are forgetting other powers are being skipped over at this level.  Some survival powers for some.  Some team powers.  Like, I generally take Tough/Weave in the 20's.  Now, if I skip them until 30's, that a loss of survival.

[Coyotedancer]

I suspect I'm going to end up missing the extra enhancement slots more than I like having access to more powers, honestly.  Having an extra power or two while lacking the slots to make them (or something else-) useful is just a recipe for Sad Coyote.  😫

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[PeregrineFalcon]

52 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I suspect I'm going to end up missing the extra enhancement slots more than I like having access to more powers, honestly.  Having an extra power or two while lacking the slots to make them (or something else-) useful is just a recipe for Sad Coyote.  😫

One of the things that I noticed during testing, in the 30s range, was that I had a lot of attacks that nothing but an Accuracy and an End Reduction SOs in them.

 

That alone is going to make exempted down characters even more powerful than standard lower level characters. I believe that it will also have the unintended effect of making the lower levels harder.

 

More attacks, and/or more toggles, at lower levels means more endurance consumption. But more attacks that don't have damage enhancements in them, because you don't have the slots for it, means that you'll do less damage and you'll take more damage because TTK is increased.

[El D]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Your comment argues against itself. The whole team up with anyone at any time thing that Super Sidekicking encourages is shot to hell when the response to god tier characters making low tier heroes superfluous is to not team with those players/characters. What happened to 'team with anyone at any time' when the response is either be useless or don't team with those other players, including when they are friends you want to spend time with? Do I now have to tell my friends what characters they are allowed to use when we play together? Or what builds those characters are allowed to have to team with me? I won't do it.

 

Exemplaring was a good thing to put in the game. Exemplaring while retaining all your enhancements and up to +5 levels of powers was the bad idea. Now we're looking at exemplaring with all your enhancements, +5 levels of powers, and the high tier powers are available at levels they were never meant to be used at against foes that have no means of dealing with them. So a bad situation is made worse.

 

I'm already loathe to ask for help when I'm up against a +2 or +3 EB I can't fight while solo because the game won't or can't spawn the EBs at the mission level. Too often getting help results in me feeling like Office Worker A as Superman comes crashing in to... say change the printer cartridge. It's like "That was my job, and Superman had to come do it for me. Maybe I need to find a different line of work." It's not fun to be saved by another. It is even less fun to be unable to contribute meaningfully when you're supposed to also be a super. And the response is just don't team with them? Just tell my friends who only play their maxed out characters "Sorry, my characters that I prefer playing are all low to mid level and I don't want to feel useless, so I'm not going to play with you."?

 

It doesn't, actually. The ability to team with anyone at any level is a resource, while only teaming with certain players is how said resource is used. I'm not saying you have to tell other people how to play, but that you do have the means to curate your own experience. That's how teaming in CoH has always worked. Don't feel like you fit in with team X? Go join or start team Y. It's not about policing other players but about managing yourself.

 

As far as overleveled characters making you feel useless, that's a purely personal reaction. 'My place on this team isn't special enough, especially if someone else is more special than me' doesn't really apply in a game about overpowered superheroes where most of the roles are pretty mutable and occasional carries are... kind of a default aspect of teaming up. There will almost always be one player whose contributions do more toward achieving success than some of the other players on the team, overlevled or not (usually it's someone with Kinetics).

Edited October 6, 2022 by El D

[Faultline]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

I suspect I'm going to end up missing the extra enhancement slots more than I like having access to more powers, honestly.  Having an extra power or two while lacking the slots to make them (or something else-) useful is just a recipe for Sad Coyote.  😫

 

 

I don't understand this. The number of slots available didn't change. If anything, by picking a power that needs slots earlier you'll also be able to give it slots at a lower level than before.

[Coyotedancer]

33 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

I don't understand this. The number of slots available didn't change. If anything, by picking a power that needs slots earlier you'll also be able to give it slots at a lower level than before.

 

Having those primary and secondary powers sooner comes with some pressure to slot them if you want to be able to use them, and the earlier that happens the less you have available in the way of slots to spare. Picking things up in the 30's and the 40's is easier. You have enough slots elsewhere by that point to start filling things out relatively easily... In the 20s? No so much. We're all going to end up feeling like we're slotting tri-form Peacebringers. 😝 

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, El D said:

 

It doesn't, actually. The ability to team with anyone at any level is a resource, while only teaming with certain players is how said resource is used. I'm not saying you have to tell other people how to play, but that you do have the means to curate your own experience. That's how teaming in CoH has always worked. Don't feel like you fit in with team X? Go join or start team Y. It's not about policing other players but about managing yourself.

 

As far as overleveled characters making you feel useless, that's a purely personal reaction. 'My place on this team isn't special enough, especially if someone else is more special than me' doesn't really apply in a game about overpowered superheroes where most of the roles are pretty mutable and occasional carries are... kind of a default aspect of teaming up. There will almost always be one player whose contributions do more toward achieving success than some of the other players on the team, overlevled or not (usually it's someone with Kinetics).

The ability to team with anyone at any level was always about being able to work together and pool your abilities to achieve a goal and have fun as a team doing so. (Emphasis on the have fun part.) Once upon a time, teaming was necessary to clear several missions. Not even counting the multiple glowies that must be clicked simultaneously bit, AVs were always AVs and equal level EBs were TOUGH. There was a reason to team. There was definitely a need to team for those missions in particular. EBs are a joke to most players now. Hells, EBs used to only have the 2 level shifts every boss got. Now they're 3.

 

Players keep screaming for powers to be made inherent so that they can enjoy having those powers without having to use a power slot for it (in the name of quality of life of course), for existing powers to have added effects (in the name of quality of life of course), and for high end powers to be available at lower levels (in the name of quality of life of course). And as the game gets easier and easier, they then turn around and call for higher difficulty content, followed soon after by calls for changes to make it easier for them to clear that more difficult content (in the name of quality of life, of course).

 

So the answer to the OP's titular question? Is changing the power levels power creep? Absolutely. Hells, it's not even creep, it's a full on mad dash. Those that want their nukes at level 26 (or level 1) will find out that the mobs at those levels are not suited to dealing with those tier powers so soon. (Which is already apparent to those that go back and do that content as a flashback.) Which may actually be the point of the request.

 

When players have access to higher tier powers than the people they are playing with and are solo clearing the maps while the rest of the team is trying to find some way of contributing beyond aggro magnet to keep more mobs in range of Superman/Superwoman, interest is lost. When a game gets too easy, people stop playing it. Of course players can keep choosing the lowered level powers at the previous levels. That just means those players will not be able to contribute to teams that have players using their T9s at level whatever (1 if some people get their wish), even when they are the same level progressing up to 50. ("Why didn't you take your nuke? It's your best power and already available to you! What? Who cares if it used to be a level 32 power. Don't you know how to play the game?")

 

I've already been told by players that joined me while I was solo to clear an EB I couldn't handle that I was playing wrong. And in their "mercy and generosity", offered to power level me to 50 so I would have the higher level powers to deal with the content I wanted to play at level. And this was on LIVE, not even on HC yet. (My first level 50 on Live? Was because I was told by almost everyone I knew that I was playing wrong since I hadn't managed to get a character to 50 yet and was cajoled into door sitting through a weekend power leveling session on double xp weekend.) The game already has a two-tiered player system. (Three depending on how you look at it.) The players that min-max their builds and eke out every bit of efficiency and power they can as if the game were some engineering project to be maximized (often power levelers), and the players that try to play the game with the resources they get and don't bother trying to figure out their combat effectiveness and probabilities to the umpteenth decimal point. I've actually been told by people in this forum that they would help me build a better character because most of my characters can't handle +4/x8. I won't accept. Why? Because from previous experience with players offering such sage advice? I must use specific powers from a specific primary and a specific secondary depending on the AT with these exact numbers of enhancement slots each using these specific enhancements. Everything else is a waste of time. And now those highly sought after powers are going to be available sooner. How long before players that aren't taking their nukes or other high end powers are simply booted from teams, particularly TFs, SFs, and trials because they're too 'incompetent' to grab the powers at their lowered levels? So sure! We can keep selecting them at original level. And hopefully only get lectured in the name of making us "better players" rather than ostracized and kicked for not being helpful. Players already get kicked for daring to play Energy Blast. That is, of course, assuming being an ineffective member of the team isn't so depressing that those players just up and quit. (Or give up and jump on the Easytown Bandwagon.)

 

Getting off my soap box now. (Not going away, just ending this very long-winded post.)

[Astralock]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How long before players that aren't taking their nukes or other high end powers are simply booted from teams, particularly TFs, SFs, and trials because they're too 'incompetent' to grab the powers at their lowered levels? So sure! We can keep selecting them at original level. And hopefully only get lectured in the name of making us "better players" rather than ostracized and kicked for not being helpful. Players already get kicked for daring to play Energy Blast. That is, of course, assuming being an ineffective member of the team isn't so depressing that those players just up and quit. (Or give up and jump on the Easytown Bandwagon.)

 

Getting off my soap box now. (Not going away, just ending this very long-winded post.)

 

The only people who should be booted from teams due to power picks are petless Masterminds and I suppose Hideless Stalkers now.  If you're being booted for power picks otherwise, one star the person, write a note, and then form your own team.  I've done so many a time.

 

Also, as far as Penelope Yin TF is concerned... that TF is too short as is and can be sped in under five minutes already.  See here if you don't believe me.  I really don't think the power levels change will matter much there.

[biostem]

It is already exceedingly easy to level up.  Consequences for being defeated or for failing a mission are also minimal.  Whatever planning/strategy in creating a character should not be minimized any further.  If anything, I think our characters' power levels should be reigned in a little.  Within the context of CoH, your security or threat level isn't just a measure of that character's power, but also a level of trust/notoriety said character has within the world.  To put it another way - a Kryptonian could arrive on Earth, demonstrate their power, but still not be trusted with crucial missions or national secrets...

Edited October 7, 2022 by biostem

[Xiddo]

What if the changes were slightly adjusted?
Moving everything down by one slot, and not by (sometimes) 6 levels.

For example,
1st set:
T9: 32 > 30

2nd set:
T9: 38 > 35

You still have - for example - nova in a Yin but you aren't also armed with your the T9 for 2nd. Its still opening up powers but isn't quite so charitable.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Xiddo