_NOPE_ Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 We have long had discussions in this community about the game running up against The Superman Problem. So, let's discuss this, rationally and in a kind manner, that topic. I'll go ahead and start. For me, growing up in an era of "Nintendo Hard", where I find many modern games FAR too forgiving, The Superman Problem is a big problem in modern games. How do we make our challenges challenging, while still being fun? How do we make our play, "meaningful"? And how do "power levels" come into play in all of this? Let me give a couple of examples to elucidate my position. First, look at Minecraft. The game has two primary modes - Creative and Survival. I NEVER play in Creative, I tried it a couple of times, but it's just plain boring to me. What's the point of "having stuff" if you don't have to earn that stuff? Luckily, there exists Survival mode, where to create, you must earn the resources to create. Sure, the game is still fairly easy, and some of that earning can be considered "monotonous" to some, but it's still something that has a "meaning". When I build a tower of my own specifications in the game, it feels like a great accomplishment, because I worked for every single block. I don't get that same feeling in creative. Second, look at The Long Dark. It's also a game with two modes, "Wintermute" or story mode, and Survival Mode. In "Wintermute" you essentially have infinite lives, as when you die you'll just go back to your previous saved game. In Survival mode, if you die once, that's it... you're done. You can't play in that specific game instance again. You have to start over, losing anything you may have "earned" in the previous instance. I played each chapter in Wintermute precisely once, just to experience the story. I'd never go back into it. For me, Survival is where it's at. Now, we can't have really two different "game modes" in City of Heroes, because it's not a single player game - it's a social game. We all have to agree to play by the same rules. And that's where the rub, and the tension comes in. Because there are those like myself that want things to be "Nintendo Hard", and there are others who I understand just want to play around and feel like a God on Earth. I have nothing against those persons, they can feel that way if they want to. But, in my opinion, that's what the End Game is for - with all of the Incarnate systems and high level task forces. At that level of the game... you're truly Superman and are facing World-Ending threats. But, I would argue, that the lower levels should be HARD. They should be where you just begin as an amateur hero, a weak character that's just getting started, hasn't learned the ropes is new to their powers, and hasn't "exercised" them. Over time, you level up, get stronger and more powerful. Each level gives you access to new amazing powers, and you really feel like you've "earned" your power by the time you get to level 50. Changing the power levels and reducing the levels required changes that, for everyone. You don't have to "earn" it. Sure, the argument can be made "just don't take it until the level that you want it", but then you might as well just unlock all powers at level 1 then, if you want to make that argument. Why have "minimum required levels" at all then, if you really subscribe to that? Why not make City of Heroes like Champions Online was, Free Form where you choose whatever powers you want whenever you want? The Archetype system and the limitations on your powers serve, in my opinion, a story purpose. They show the natural progression of your character, from weak to strong. And, in my opinion, that shouldn't be messed with, it destroys the narrative arc. --- I propose the following solution as an alternative suggestion to constantly pushing to make the early levels easier for everyone: Put them back to the way they were when the game was on Live back all those years ago, and implement an "I Win" button. No, seriously. Stick a contact somewhere that you can talk to that allows you to just artificially set your power level to whatever level you want. You want an instant 50? BOOM, you're there, you now just have to transfer influence from one of your alts to fill in your slots. You just want to skip the early levels where you didn't have access to Flight, and you're tired of the Dr. V storyline? BOOM, done, skip those few. This solution would end the concept of "powerlevelling", there'd be no need, just go see the I Win button, then play the content you WANT to play. Jump right into that high level "steamroller" content that you thrive on. --- I then have the option to ignore that contact entirely, and so I'll just be sitting here punching Hellions in the face at level 1 for the next two hours for the umpteenth time, as God (Statesman, I guess) intended! Win-win, we all get what we want. Those that seem to hate the lower level game can skip it, and those of us that love the game at ALL levels, from our weakest moments where we have to use Rest after every fight all the way up to facing stuff in Portal Corp and beyond can do it our slow, "boring" way. But, I'd argue, constantly giving access to more powers earlier and earlier as has been the trend? Why even have level requirements at all then, why not just set them all to level 1 and be done with it? 3 2 5 I'm out.
MoonSheep Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 i also sit in the “earning things make it feel worthwhile” camp, having dished out my views during the page 4 threads i was initially excited about the new power access level changes, though i do wonder how dramatically it’s going to change some of the mid 20’s content. the updated examplar system where you can use powers 5 levels down was already quite a boost to balance that however, for some ATs/sets like SS tanks, not getting foot stomp until lvl 38 is an incredible slog. having it available by lvl 30 makes levelling naturally far more appealing 4 If you're not dying you're not living
Wavicle Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) It is, but I think it's good. Currently there are a ton of people who PL to 30 or higher before playing their toons. This change makes that less of a thing. Now the game gets fun sooner. I tried to get a couple friends to play this game and they quit before level 20 because they found it too boring. Edited October 5, 2022 by Wavicle 1 5 Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
BrandX Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said: We have long had discussions in this community about the game running up against The Superman Problem. So, let's discuss this, rationally and in a kind manner, that topic. I'll go ahead and start. For me, growing up in an era of "Nintendo Hard", where I find many modern games FAR too forgiving, The Superman Problem is a big problem in modern games. How do we make our challenges challenging, while still being fun? How do we make our play, "meaningful"? And how do "power levels" come into play in all of this? Let me give a couple of examples to elucidate my position. First, look at Minecraft. The game has two primary modes - Creative and Survival. I NEVER play in Creative, I tried it a couple of times, but it's just plain boring to me. What's the point of "having stuff" if you don't have to earn that stuff? Luckily, there exists Survival mode, where to create, you must earn the resources to create. Sure, the game is still fairly easy, and some of that earning can be considered "monotonous" to some, but it's still something that has a "meaning". When I build a tower of my own specifications in the game, it feels like a great accomplishment, because I worked for every single block. I don't get that same feeling in creative. Second, look at The Long Dark. It's also a game with two modes, "Wintermute" or story mode, and Survival Mode. In "Wintermute" you essentially have infinite lives, as when you die you'll just go back to your previous saved game. In Survival mode, if you die once, that's it... you're done. You can't play in that specific game instance again. You have to start over, losing anything you may have "earned" in the previous instance. I played each chapter in Wintermute precisely once, just to experience the story. I'd never go back into it. For me, Survival is where it's at. Now, we can't have really two different "game modes" in City of Heroes, because it's not a single player game - it's a social game. We all have to agree to play by the same rules. And that's where the rub, and the tension comes in. Because there are those like myself that want things to be "Nintendo Hard", and there are others who I understand just want to play around and feel like a God on Earth. I have nothing against those persons, they can feel that way if they want to. But, in my opinion, that's what the End Game is for - with all of the Incarnate systems and high level task forces. At that level of the game... you're truly Superman and are facing World-Ending threats. But, I would argue, that the lower levels should be HARD. They should be where you just begin as an amateur hero, a weak character that's just getting started, hasn't learned the ropes is new to their powers, and hasn't "exercised" them. Over time, you level up, get stronger and more powerful. Each level gives you access to new amazing powers, and you really feel like you've "earned" your power by the time you get to level 50. Changing the power levels and reducing the levels required changes that, for everyone. You don't have to "earn" it. Sure, the argument can be made "just don't take it until the level that you want it", but then you might as well just unlock all powers at level 1 then, if you want to make that argument. Why have "minimum required levels" at all then, if you really subscribe to that? Why not make City of Heroes like Champions Online was, Free Form where you choose whatever powers you want whenever you want? The Archetype system and the limitations on your powers serve, in my opinion, a story purpose. They show the natural progression of your character, from weak to strong. And, in my opinion, that shouldn't be messed with, it destroys the narrative arc. --- I propose the following solution as an alternative suggestion to constantly pushing to make the early levels easier for everyone: Put them back to the way they were when the game was on Live back all those years ago, and implement an "I Win" button. No, seriously. Stick a contact somewhere that you can talk to that allows you to just artificially set your power level to whatever level you want. You want an instant 50? BOOM, you're there, you now just have to transfer influence from one of your alts to fill in your slots. You just want to skip the early levels where you didn't have access to Flight, and you're tired of the Dr. V storyline? BOOM, done, skip those few. This solution would end the concept of "powerlevelling", there'd be no need, just go see the I Win button, then play the content you WANT to play. Jump right into that high level "steamroller" content that you thrive on. --- I then have the option to ignore that contact entirely, and so I'll just be sitting here punching Hellions in the face at level 1 for the next two hours for the umpteenth time, as God (Statesman, I guess) intended! Win-win, we all get what we want. Those that seem to hate the lower level game can skip it, and those of us that love the game at ALL levels, from our weakest moments where we have to use Rest after every fight all the way up to facing stuff in Portal Corp and beyond can do it our slow, "boring" way. But, I'd argue, constantly giving access to more powers earlier and earlier as has been the trend? Why even have level requirements at all then, why not just set them all to level 1 and be done with it? I looked at the changes and thought to myself, "It doesn't change the powers I pick" it just changes when I may pic the powers. Now I'll have to decide "Do I hold off on those pool powers I know I'll want for my build longer or grab them the same time as I did before?" The only real possible power creep here, is allowing one to pick the tier 2 over the tier 1 on the secondary. 1 5
Seed22 Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said: We have long had discussions in this community about the game running up against The Superman Problem. So, let's discuss this, rationally and in a kind manner, that topic. I'll go ahead and start. For me, growing up in an era of "Nintendo Hard", where I find many modern games FAR too forgiving, The Superman Problem is a big problem in modern games. How do we make our challenges challenging, while still being fun? How do we make our play, "meaningful"? And how do "power levels" come into play in all of this? Let me give a couple of examples to elucidate my position. First, look at Minecraft. The game has two primary modes - Creative and Survival. I NEVER play in Creative, I tried it a couple of times, but it's just plain boring to me. What's the point of "having stuff" if you don't have to earn that stuff? Luckily, there exists Survival mode, where to create, you must earn the resources to create. Sure, the game is still fairly easy, and some of that earning can be considered "monotonous" to some, but it's still something that has a "meaning". When I build a tower of my own specifications in the game, it feels like a great accomplishment, because I worked for every single block. I don't get that same feeling in creative. Second, look at The Long Dark. It's also a game with two modes, "Wintermute" or story mode, and Survival Mode. In "Wintermute" you essentially have infinite lives, as when you die you'll just go back to your previous saved game. In Survival mode, if you die once, that's it... you're done. You can't play in that specific game instance again. You have to start over, losing anything you may have "earned" in the previous instance. I played each chapter in Wintermute precisely once, just to experience the story. I'd never go back into it. For me, Survival is where it's at. Now, we can't have really two different "game modes" in City of Heroes, because it's not a single player game - it's a social game. We all have to agree to play by the same rules. And that's where the rub, and the tension comes in. Because there are those like myself that want things to be "Nintendo Hard", and there are others who I understand just want to play around and feel like a God on Earth. I have nothing against those persons, they can feel that way if they want to. But, in my opinion, that's what the End Game is for - with all of the Incarnate systems and high level task forces. At that level of the game... you're truly Superman and are facing World-Ending threats. But, I would argue, that the lower levels should be HARD. They should be where you just begin as an amateur hero, a weak character that's just getting started, hasn't learned the ropes is new to their powers, and hasn't "exercised" them. Over time, you level up, get stronger and more powerful. Each level gives you access to new amazing powers, and you really feel like you've "earned" your power by the time you get to level 50. Changing the power levels and reducing the levels required changes that, for everyone. You don't have to "earn" it. Sure, the argument can be made "just don't take it until the level that you want it", but then you might as well just unlock all powers at level 1 then, if you want to make that argument. Why have "minimum required levels" at all then, if you really subscribe to that? Why not make City of Heroes like Champions Online was, Free Form where you choose whatever powers you want whenever you want? The Archetype system and the limitations on your powers serve, in my opinion, a story purpose. They show the natural progression of your character, from weak to strong. And, in my opinion, that shouldn't be messed with, it destroys the narrative arc. --- I propose the following solution as an alternative suggestion to constantly pushing to make the early levels easier for everyone: Put them back to the way they were when the game was on Live back all those years ago, and implement an "I Win" button. No, seriously. Stick a contact somewhere that you can talk to that allows you to just artificially set your power level to whatever level you want. You want an instant 50? BOOM, you're there, you now just have to transfer influence from one of your alts to fill in your slots. You just want to skip the early levels where you didn't have access to Flight, and you're tired of the Dr. V storyline? BOOM, done, skip those few. This solution would end the concept of "powerlevelling", there'd be no need, just go see the I Win button, then play the content you WANT to play. Jump right into that high level "steamroller" content that you thrive on. --- I then have the option to ignore that contact entirely, and so I'll just be sitting here punching Hellions in the face at level 1 for the next two hours for the umpteenth time, as God (Statesman, I guess) intended! Win-win, we all get what we want. Those that seem to hate the lower level game can skip it, and those of us that love the game at ALL levels, from our weakest moments where we have to use Rest after every fight all the way up to facing stuff in Portal Corp and beyond can do it our slow, "boring" way. But, I'd argue, constantly giving access to more powers earlier and earlier as has been the trend? Why even have level requirements at all then, why not just set them all to level 1 and be done with it? My issue is: Time. I have more responsiblities in life, I don't have time for this "earned" crap. I've got other things in life that I already have to earn, I come here to chill, and play a game I used to love as a kid. If that's something that can't be understood or seems alien(not by you, Phi!), then that's a moment where you(generalized) need to ask what's REALLY important here. Not trying to be mean, but I'm tired of this common sense argument, I really REALLY REALLLLLY am. The power changes as they are help with this; I can pick things earlier, have fun earlier, and get through crap instead of wasting evenings or time during a week to slog through a painful and boring as hell experience. I think folks view the leveling experience as it is, as dynamic, and that's fine for them, but all these leveling changes seem to do for me is. if I'm going to have to I guess *shudder* start leveling the normal way again, I won't have to suffer at least completely while I do so. Edited October 5, 2022 by Seed22 1 6 Aspiring show writer through AE arcs and then eventually a script 😛 AE Arcs: Odd Stories-Arc ID: 57289| An anthology series focusing on some of your crazier stories that you'd save for either a drunken night at Pocket D or a mindwipe from your personal psychic.|The Pariahs: Magus Gray-Arc ID: 58682| Magus Gray enlists your help in getting to the bottom of who was behind the murder of the Winter Court.|
Ruin Mage Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 Personally, my lack of care towards power creep comes from the fact - at any day this could disappear. This isn't the live service game - it's a private server run by volunteer devs who have a vision that may or may not be decipherable. As I said in the thread - if you don't like it, then don't change a thing about your slotting. It will not have a negative effect on the pre-45 game. 1 alright buddy, it's time to shit yourselfcasts earthquake, activates dispersion bubble
Doc_Scorpion Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 37 minutes ago, Shadeknight said: As I said in the thread - if you don't like it, then don't change a thing about your slotting. It will not have a negative effect on the pre-45 game. That would be true if CoX was a solo game. CoX is not a solo game. 2 Unofficial Homecoming Wiki - Paragon Wiki updated for Homecoming! Your contributions are welcome! (Not the owner/operator - just a fan who wants to spread the word.)
Ruin Mage Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 Depends on the AT and build and difficulty settings, but that's a whole rabbit hole I'm sure we shouldn't get down into. 1 alright buddy, it's time to shit yourselfcasts earthquake, activates dispersion bubble
Yomo Kimyata Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 To answer the question in your title, there's no creep about it. It's an instantaneous quantum jump easier. I've got no problem if other people want things easier, but I dislike it when it is enforced as a default. Make an easy mode that you can opt in to if you are having a hard time. Play at +0/x1 and don't feel bad about it. Don't make everything easy mode then cop out by saying "Well you can make it harder by playing drunk and left handed and with training enhancements." Pfft like *THAT* is a challenge. 1 4 1 5 Who run Bartertown?
Greycat Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 44 minutes ago, Shadeknight said: Personally, my lack of care towards power creep comes from the fact - at any day this could disappear. And my care about it is that it *is* here and I want it to be the best it can be, even if it does disappear tomorrow. If on (say) February 1st 2023 we get shut down, I want to say "It had another good run, felt good and I believed it was in good hands" rather than "Well, probably better it got canned now before it kept going the way it was." I've put in my reasons and an example of previous content that was affected by powers availability being earlier (and not, IMHO, in a good way) in the specific thread, if that hasn't been hidden. I don't think we need more of it. There's nothing about this game hard enough, 1-50, that moving power availability earlier solves. I do not believe it's good for the game, period. But, as I've also said, by the time it's at this stage, I have zero faith that feedback's going to do anything at all, short of having some gamebreaking bug (similar to when we initially got five powers in pools and it screwed up Kheldians and Dominators 'til they could fix it - but those were the days on live.) 5 1 2 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
Wavicle Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 Are we really stressing about levels 20-30 being made a little more high octane? 5 1 Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon
Greycat Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 Just now, Wavicle said: Are we really stressing about levels 20-30 being made a little more high octane? Yes, because they don't need it and I, for one, don't think it's good for the game. The content was designed with certain levels and power availability in mind. Overpowering that makes the content trivial - which people are already bothered about on the high end - which doesn't lead to maintaining interest. 5 1 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
Indystruck Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 No, it isn't. You never had to "earn" it, you just had to "unlock" it. You could be dragged, kicking and screaming as the most incompetent player who ever lived, to 50, and you would still have those powers unlocked regardless of how much you enjoyed licking candy off the floor. Leveling is not earning, it's unlocking. 3 1 2 @Twi - Phobia on Everlasting
_NOPE_ Posted October 5, 2022 Author Posted October 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, Indystruck said: No, it isn't. You never had to "earn" it, you just had to "unlock" it. You could be dragged, kicking and screaming as the most incompetent player who ever lived, to 50, and you would still have those powers unlocked regardless of how much you enjoyed licking candy off the floor. Leveling is not earning, it's unlocking. Contrary position - your CHARACTER "earned" their powers, even if YOU as a player didn't. They still experienced everything they needed to experience to get better at being a hero/villain. Because this isn't just a superhero game, it's a superhero role-playing game. 1 2 3 I'm out.
Jaxman100 Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 I think there already exist power sets that have substantial power advantages in the early/mid game versus other power sets. If a core power in your build is not available until 38 and not slotted until 40. It's uninteresting. I know exactly when I take it and slot it. The change certainly makes me wish there was an easier respec method where I could drag and drop slotted powers to different 'levels'. Having a 'core'/'fun' power available 4-8 levels sooner sounds rather enjoyable. Any real power creep is more built around exemp'ing with tons of slots and sets. And I do see Synapse and Yin being 'easier' point forward. But I aslo see offensive tanks being more fun to level by playing, and some buff/debuff secondaries leveling smoother. Pets at 26, yes please. For myself, I think this change makes me more inclined to some of the lower content on specific Alts. But in the long run, opening the Epic/Patron pools faster might actually create more interesting build options. More choices/decisions on building new Alts, or just how to level them is terrific IMO. 1
LastHumanSoldier Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 I swear I recently saw "The Philotic Knight" post that he hasn't played in over 2 years nor does he plan on returning. Thus had no "dog in the game." Maybe I was mistaken. *Shrug* My thoughts: I do not get more powers. It doesn't change the power I pick. It doesn't make me take or make me avoid Pool powers. I just get more choice earlier. None of the above is Power Creep. The only REAL effective change is that I no longer have to take throwaway powers on my dominators, blappers and defenders. This one is a small bit of Power Creep. But I am down for this as it will make the game more fun. 6 1
_NOPE_ Posted October 5, 2022 Author Posted October 5, 2022 Just now, LastHumanSoldier said: I swear I recently saw "The Philotic Knight" post that he hasn't played in over 2 years nor does he plan on returning. And why do you think that might be, perhaps? Let's not get personal, please. Let's focus on the topic at hand, rather than each other. 2 I'm out.
Seed22 Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said: Contrary position - your CHARACTER "earned" their powers, even if YOU as a player didn't. They still experienced everything they needed to experience to get better at being a hero/villain. Because this isn't just a superhero game, it's a superhero role-playing game. Thats a roleplaying( and should be likened to an aesthetic) standpoint. I am not a roleplayer, I WILL NOT embrace any RP reasons for…anything. I get what you’re trying to say but it comes across as “I see this as an RP aspect of CoH” i see it as an objective unlock and thats it, if I want to experience a hero going on ajourney, there’s Invincible( which i love!) on Amazon. I liken this to how folks hate Redside writing for one reason or another; it’s a choice but by no means should I try and FORCE you to like Redside writing Edited October 5, 2022 by Seed22 1 3 Aspiring show writer through AE arcs and then eventually a script 😛 AE Arcs: Odd Stories-Arc ID: 57289| An anthology series focusing on some of your crazier stories that you'd save for either a drunken night at Pocket D or a mindwipe from your personal psychic.|The Pariahs: Magus Gray-Arc ID: 58682| Magus Gray enlists your help in getting to the bottom of who was behind the murder of the Winter Court.|
PeregrineFalcon Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, The Philotic Knight said: We have long had discussions in this community about the game running up against The Superman Problem. So, let's discuss this, rationally and in a kind manner, that topic. I'll go ahead and start. I'm going to assume that "The Superman Problem" = "He's just too darn powerful to face much of a challenge most of the time." I say that because your link's broken. 25 minutes ago, Greycat said: Yes, because they don't need it and I, for one, don't think it's good for the game. I agree. In fact, I've agreed with like the last 4 or 5 of your posts that I've read today. I think I need to sit down and drink more coffee. Something's clearly not right if you and I are in agreement. 😄 Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own.
gameboy1234 Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, The Philotic Knight said: Put them back to the way they were when the game was on Live back all those years ago, and implement an "I Win" button. If it were up to me, I'd make things even easier at level 1. A problem with the basic game design in CoH imo is you have to grind before you get a decent power chain. This led to "cheap" powers like the origin based powers and brawl so players could have something to mash. I think a better solution would be let players have their first three primary and first two secondary powers right at level one. This would give most ATs a decent attack chain and a bit more, just so that the earliest levels aren't a drag to play. This isn't a power creep issue, it's a fun issue. And an "I win" or story mode button isn't a bad idea. For certain content, maybe TFs and other "hard" content, a solo mode with constant buffs would be fine. For regular content one can always set the difficulty to -1, which is pretty close to I win, and also asking for help is not beyond consideration either. 1 1
Glacier Peak Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 If I can solo a Level 54 Archvillain with a cup of coffee in my hand and a single attack on auto, I have either figured out how to cheese the game or there is no longer a challenge. Does it matter to me? Not in the slightest - I play the game because it is fun. 3 1 I lead weekly Indom Badge Runs / A newer giant monster guide by Glacier Peak / A tour of Pocket D easter eggs! / Arena All-Star Accolade Guide! Best Post Ever....
Sirius.Games Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 My view on the "problem" is that the player side has been buffed and buffed while ignoring the enemy. On live the buffs were to add a play/time barrier hence the xp curve and resulting in incarnates. It is now far easier to level, far easier to become superman, and the mobs have mostly been left behind. The solution IMO is buffs>nerfs. If someone's is exempted down it would be better to have unique enemies show up, or code ambushes in. For the power selection creep maybe give new powers to the enemies in the 20-30 range or bring the higher level enemies down when they extend to the 40s already. Theres a balance for sure but an I win button limits the journey as it were and you can do that on the beta server, if that's what people wanted then we would see people migrating there. 2
Riverdusk Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 Does it add to power creep? A little bit in the mid levels I'd say yes. Enough to matter? I'd say no, especially if they got rid of the exemp level bonus like I've suggested. And your two options don't leave room for those "in-between". I don't want an "I Win" button (and never powerlevel or farm), but I also think it'd be nice to have better access to more interesting powers during the early to mid levels on the way up. I think it will make leveling up new alts (the slow way) more fun and interesting. This all reminds me of when they made SO's available to lower levels, same arguments. "It is going to ruin the low level game" heard several people say. Honestly it didn't really make much difference and as someone who doesn't power level, it helped smooth out the early levels a bit is all. 2
El D Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) Dead levels that didn't grant access to any Primary/Secondary/Epic choices were a bad design decision from the get-go, as was forcing players to take the Tier 1 of their secondaries at creation no matter how useless said power was. This isn't power creep, it's solving an innate progression problem with the game. Power-granting levels should have always offered something new from the main sets a player built their character around. This restructuring will allow players to get more of their builds functional earlier, actually let players to progress with said build rather than 'Well, it'll be online about the time I'm done playing this character,' and make certain content in the mid/late game less of a slog. If you feel like that's 'too easy' and you need to 'earn' the power pick? You can still level up the old way, just use some self-restraint and take them at the old levels they were granted. There's a difference between making the game easier and making the game less obnoxious. This is the latter. Edited October 5, 2022 by El D 4 1 Global is @El D, Everlasting Player, Recovering Altaholic.
Perfidy Posted October 5, 2022 Posted October 5, 2022 2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said: First, look at Minecraft. Sorry, I don't see a reason to look at Minecraft. I've never played it. 2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said: Second, look at The Long Dark. Same thing. Not only have I not played, I've never heard of it. 2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said: Now, we can't have really two different "game modes" in City of Heroes, because it's not a single player game - it's a social game. We'll have to disagree a bit on this. While a number of folks find CoH to be a social game, I certainly do not. I play this game in spite of other people being here, not because of them. I simply don't know any of you. I play the game solo, because I have no idea who you are. Why would I want to team with you? You're not going to add anything to my enjoyment, so what would be the point? Not like you're going to like it if I have to leave the keyboard to change a diaper. (baby's diaper, not mine, lol) 2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said: But, I would argue, that the lower levels should be HARD. The problem with this is the way the characters level. Some have an easier time of it than others. Someone with a boatload of inf can get the nifty IO procs and such to make leveling easier, faster. Someone without those resources will either have to learn to market and/or farm, or play an awful lot more than they otherwise would, in pursuit of loot. Some folks absolutely struggle with Dr. Vahzilok, while others have no problems with him. Sometimes, this difference is in knowledge, skills and abilities (of the player behind the avatar) and sometimes it's in the AT's inherent weaknesses. The only way to fix this is to make all Hitpoints the same, all recovery/regen stats the same, and all damage and recharge, defense and resistances the same, across all ATs and powersets. So...that's a bit crazy to suggest. This is where people talk about "balance", as if such a thing were possible. Jack and the gang, they didn't care so much about balance. They figured in their infinite wisdom, or lack thereof, that if folks want things harder, they can go with a bubble defender. If they want things easier, they can go with a scrapper. The early levels needn't be necessarily hard - but each character should spend enough time in each level to learn about their recovery, their ability to handle incoming attacks, how to deal with foes that knock you around, or mez/stun/sleep you, and how to deal with the mission objectives. In this game, you're technically not "always a rookie". You're basically always a junior. You have just enough tools to graduate, but when you do graduate, you're in the next school and become a junior again, trying to get to be a senior, and then graduate. There's always a "power" carrot to pursue - until you're t-4 in the incarnate stuff. And, once you reach that, you can pursue various challenges, or roll another alt. 2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said: The Archetype system and the limitations on your powers serve, in my opinion, a story purpose. They show the natural progression of your character, from weak to strong. And, in my opinion, that shouldn't be messed with, it destroys the narrative arc. I appreciate your opinion, but the powers I choose have nothing to do with any narrative arc. I pick them because they are helping me "graduate" faster. It's got absolutely nothing to do with any story that I'm aware of. But I do agree that the progression doesn't need to be changed. 2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said: You want an instant 50? BOOM, you're there I am pretty sure this has been suggested as an inf sink. Like - 1 billion, here's your insta 50. No need to farm up, just get your enhancements and enjoy. The problem is, there are always people that are telling us what's fun and what's not. And some people that work for/with the HC Devs either believe them, or are them. They only think teaming in really hard content is fun. They can't imagine someone like me running through Gold Side by myself is any fun. They can't imagine why I'd spend 30 minutes trying to find a fit for the name Militia Etheridge. I can't seem to make the right character for it. The name's available, have at it. No charge. They also can't imagine why people want to skip the lower level stuff in its entirety. They can't imagine why someone would want to run a positron at level 50 instead of level 15. I don't even know who "they" are, but on the basis of the last page and the one that's coming, they're a pretty dense bunch. I believe we should all play how we want to, provided it doesn't infringe on anyone else's game. I don't think a guy should solo a GM if there's another player that's wanting to get those merits. The solo player has a right to ask, of course, but it's an open field in that context, so anyone can get their merits, if you ask me. I also think a player has a right to farm all they want, afk or otherwise. It's a victimless crime. All it does is drive prices down with more supply. Win/Win. I also think folks should be able to roleplay anyone they want, provided they aren't getting gross in a public chat channel. I mean, not every character is appealing or fun to listen to. Keep that NSFW stuff private, please. Just let folks be. Treat them like bees. Necessary for food, but if you don't bug them, they won't bug you. Unless you're a flower or something, lol. 3
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