Farm nerfs

[Seed22]

20 hours ago, flakoff said:

I have no idea what you are on about, honestly. 

Let me clarify it even further, as yeah re-reading it may have been a bit tough to grasp.

 

Folks tend to say, "Go to the test server if you want an instant-50" which I find a bit odd, as farmers don't necessarily want instant-50's, just an alternative to having to PUG to 50(can be VERY painful due to any number of reasons like server pop, players on the team, time constraints, etc...). I jumped the gun quite a bit I think on that response. I was thinking your initial response was given because you saw people farming to 50 as "wanting instant-50's", and so that's why I asked those questions. Granted, they were a bit snarky so they weren't exactly well...good 😛 (That's mostly due to my irritation with  anything about farming being met with "Go to the test server" like THEY couldn't if they hated farming so much *grumblegrumble*)

 

In summary: It was a kneejerk reaction based on stuff that happened in the past on these forums. My apologies!

 

 

[Lines]

On 10/19/2022 at 10:57 AM, Infinitum said:

 

Take a look at the screenshot from 2019, If AE XP was halved back then wouldn't that mean that double XP pre Page 4 was not really double XP but less than that?

 

Now post Page 4 is what double up triple down? so either way that is less than what the actual double XP rate should be given the 50% cut in 2019 right?

 

 

This is a bit too in the region of "if train 1 leaves station A at 2:33pm..." for me to actually know how to answer (and your follow up posts).

 

My problem is I don't know what Six meant by the XP boost being applied additively. To get to 3x xp, it would need to add the defeated mob xp twice. Right? But I can't fathom what sort of equation in code could accidentally make that happen.

 

I'm gonna need some graphs. Maybe even some diagrams!

[Neiska]

49 minutes ago, Lines said:

 

This is a bit too in the region of "if train 1 leaves station A at 2:33pm..." for me to actually know how to answer (and your follow up posts).

 

My problem is I don't know what Six meant by the XP boost being applied additively. To get to 3x xp, it would need to add the defeated mob xp twice. Right? But I can't fathom what sort of equation in code could accidentally make that happen.

 

I'm gonna need some graphs. Maybe even some diagrams!

 

To play armchair philosopher a moment, some people were sad what other people could get/earn doing things they themselves didn't enjoy doing, and so complained enough that eventually that activity that had zero affect on them whatsoever was then reduced, more than once. Because some people just can't mind their own affairs and focus on themselves, and due to lack of outside achievement and the absence of a sense of self-worth can only attain it by comparing themselves to others and what they have achieved.

[Booper]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

My problem is I don't know what Six meant by the XP boost being applied additively. To get to 3x xp, it would need to add the defeated mob xp twice. Right? But I can't fathom what sort of equation in code could accidentally make that happen.

The xp boosters used an odd formula where it would add instead of multiply. For instance, if you used double XP, your XP would become 1 + 1 = 2, where the first 1 is your base XP and the second 1 is from the double XP booster. 

 

If you had the 50% XP booster, your XP would become 1 + 0.5 = 1.5. Again, the 1 is base and the 0.5 is the 50% xp boost.

 

In AE, all XP is half of what it would be elsewhere in the game. However, this halving was being applied to the base XP, not the boosters. So for double XP boost, you were getting: 0.5*1 + 1 = 1.5 (triple, instead of doubled). For 50% XP boost you would get: 0.5*1 + 0.5 = 1.0 (double, instead of +50%).

 

That bug was fixed.

 

 

EDIT: To follow on, this bug was never reported (I wonder why). It was only discovered by accident when one of the developers tested out AE doing 0% XP instead of 50% XP (I forget the purpose of the test, but I think it had to do with the Advanced Enemy Power Customization, which was a feature added in Page 4. Anyways, not important to the story, moving on). To their surprise, they were still getting XP. It turned out despite having AE set to 0% XP, their double XP was still granting it. That's when we looked in the code and discovered what was happening: 0*1 + 1 = 1. 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Booper said:

To follow on, this bug was never reported (I wonder why)

 

One possible explanation is that the XP value of critters varies wildly in and out of AE depending on relative level, rank, and other hidden variables.  How many players can tell you the XP value of any specific critter without looking it up?  Not many, I would guess.

[MistressOhm]

1 hour ago, Booper said:

this bug was never reported (I wonder why)

 

"Hey, I'm still getting a lot of XP from doing this AE arc, are you sure the AE stuff is supposed to be less?" 

 

"Um...."

 

"Whatever, let's grind this. Momma needs a new 50."

 

 

[Yaliw]

I'm not shocked the devs play the game. I'd be shocked if certain forumites play the game at all considering how much time they spend here.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Yaliw said:

I'm not shocked the devs play the game. I'd be shocked if certain forumites play the game at all considering how much time they spend here.

 

Wait, the game isn't on the forums?

[Infinitum]

11 hours ago, Booper said:

The xp boosters used an odd formula where it would add instead of multiply. For instance, if you used double XP, your XP would become 1 + 1 = 2, where the first 1 is your base XP and the second 1 is from the double XP booster. 

 

If you had the 50% XP booster, your XP would become 1 + 0.5 = 1.5. Again, the 1 is base and the 0.5 is the 50% xp boost.

 

In AE, all XP is half of what it would be elsewhere in the game. However, this halving was being applied to the base XP, not the boosters. So for double XP boost, you were getting: 0.5*1 + 1 = 1.5 (triple, instead of doubled). For 50% XP boost you would get: 0.5*1 + 0.5 = 1.0 (double, instead of +50%).

 

That bug was fixed.

 

 

EDIT: To follow on, this bug was never reported (I wonder why). It was only discovered by accident when one of the developers tested out AE doing 0% XP instead of 50% XP (I forget the purpose of the test, but I think it had to do with the Advanced Enemy Power Customization, which was a feature added in Page 4. Anyways, not important to the story, moving on). To their surprise, they were still getting XP. It turned out despite having AE set to 0% XP, their double XP was still granting it. That's when we looked in the code and discovered what was happening: 0*1 + 1 = 1. 

 

 

But from the original post - AE XP was halved because levels were being gained too fast back then - which - according to you was also in part due to the booster being out of whack - given that fix, should not the AE XP halving be revisited also given the original error compounded the speed back then at the beginning? - which has now been fixed either way.  So my premise is not that the XP booster bug being fixed was wrong - rather the May 2019 AE XP halving should be revisited given the perception was skewed in part by the XP booster bug also.

 

That was my point.  I understood the how and the why, but to continue nerfs on top of nerfs which was based on other nerfs - it's just hard to see the justification of that - which you really don't need any justification at the end of the day, but in the long run it's a bad face IMO to keep taking from one segment of the community whether you agree with them or not. - which I mean it's a fact that the other night i couldn't even get a pick up ITF even broadcasting on LFG - so I just turned things off and went to bed watching Hotel Hell with Gordon Ramsay.

 

I guess I am more than a little concerned at this point the game is dying the death of a star that once burned too bright - but is running out of gas now - the last thing we want is to push anyone away for any reason.

 

I normally side with the devs on many things, but I honestly see the other side here also.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Infinitum

[Ghost]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

 

But from the original post - AE XP was halved because levels were being gained too fast back then - which - according to you was also in part due to the booster being out of whack - given that fix, should not the AE XP halving be revisited also given the original error compounded the speed back then at the beginning? - which has now been fixed either way.  So my premise is not that the XP booster bug being fixed was wrong - rather the May 2019 AE XP halving should be revisited given the perception was skewed in part by the XP booster bug also.

 

That was my point.  I understood the how and the why, but to continue nerfs on top of nerfs which was based on other nerfs - it's just hard to see the justification of that - which you really don't need any justification at the end of the day, but in the long run it's a bad face IMO to keep taking from one segment of the community whether you agree with them or not. - which I mean it's a fact that the other night i couldn't even get a pick up ITF even broadcasting on LFG - so I just turned things off and went to bed watching Hotel Hell with Gordon Ramsay.

 

I guess I am more than a little concerned at this point the game is dying the death of a star that once burned too bright - but is running out of gas now - the last thing we want is to push anyone away for any reason.

 

I normally side with the devs on many things, but I honestly see the other side here also.

Are you absolutely sure you want the Devs looking at AE/farming and XP again?

 

[Infinitum]

7 hours ago, Ghost said:

Are you absolutely sure you want the Devs looking at AE/farming and XP again?

 

 

At this point either they will do whatever they are intending to do, or reverse course slightly.

 

I want to restate - the current changes aren't the end of the world for me, and the other changes are also really good, however - I can also see why the changes that have affected farming are upsetting to a lot of people.  I believe that should be considered at this point, but honestly from reading another thread - just the outright bitterness - it may be too late.

 

There is literally nobody a part of my group playing from 2+ years ago aside from my family.  There are only 2 people playing from 2 years and under at this point.  That's scary to me.  I don't want to lose this again.

 

And let's be honest we should never be a "good riddance" community to any group unless it's an outright exploit like paying money for xyz.  That is also not to say every request could be accommodated - but I really don't see the problems with farming to warrant such attention towards negatively affecting them.

 

That's just my thoughts - I am sure a lot of people will disagree.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Infinitum

[Frostbiter]

Why you nerf farms? In last version I could have 24 farm plots and get 24 vegetables, now I'm lucky to get 10 without putting points in Foraging for the extra vegetables per harvest. Go back the the old way, this game is ruined now!!!!!!!!

[Glacier Peak]

10 hours ago, Infinitum said:

But from the original post - AE XP was halved because levels were being gained too fast back then - which - according to you was also in part due to the booster being out of whack - given that fix, should not the AE XP halving be revisited also given the original error compounded the speed back then at the beginning? - which has now been fixed either way.  So my premise is not that the XP booster bug being fixed was wrong - rather the May 2019 AE XP halving should be revisited given the perception was skewed in part by the XP booster bug also.

 

That was my point.  I understood the how and the why, but to continue nerfs on top of nerfs which was based on other nerfs - it's just hard to see the justification of that - which you really don't need any justification at the end of the day, but in the long run it's a bad face IMO to keep taking from one segment of the community whether you agree with them or not. - which I mean it's a fact that the other night i couldn't even get a pick up ITF even broadcasting on LFG - so I just turned things off and went to bed watching Hotel Hell with Gordon Ramsay.

 

I guess I am more than a little concerned at this point the game is dying the death of a star that once burned too bright - but is running out of gas now - the last thing we want is to push anyone away for any reason.

 

I normally side with the devs on many things, but I honestly see the other side here also.

Alienating the handful of people who want bugs to exist in the game instead of fixing what is not working as intended? Oh no....

[Neiska]

22 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

There is literally nobody a part of my group playing from 2+ years ago aside from my family.  There are only 2 people playing from 2 years and under at this point.  That's scary to me.  I don't want to lose this again.

 

+1, same for me hon. Out of a full friend list, I might see 4 or 5 people online on a Friday or Saturday night. We don't do TFs anymore, don't do story arcs anymore, don't even really hangout and chitchat anymore. And we used to do that stuff 3-4 times a week. But logging in and seeing an empty contact list is very depressing, and seeing more of those who remain say "I'm done" after each change slims that list down even more. 

 

I do want to say I don't suspect there is any single cause for this, or even the nerfs or changes are to expressly blame. I expect the causes to be multisided and varied, as with any group of people. I am just saying your situation is relatable.

[Ruin Mage]

It is what it is. HC will be here until it isn't. CoH isn't a popular game, and it never really will be again.

Populations come and go for private servers, especially for games nowhere near as big as the Big Ones.

[Frostbiter]

1 minute ago, Shadeknight said:

It is what it is. HC will be here until it isn't. CoH isn't a popular game, and it never really will be again.

Populations come and go for private servers, especially for games nowhere near as big as the Big Ones.

 

You mean we should just be happy with what we have? I can't imagine that working as any sort of real life philosophy. Where's the nihilism?

[Ruin Mage]

More so just a random comment about population.

I have plenty of nihilism elsewhere. Like my love life.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Alienating the handful of people who want bugs to exist in the game instead of fixing what is not working as intended? Oh no....

 

Have another try reading this.  Seriously.  I don't mean that as a slight, but if one nerf was because of a bug (they professed to not know about) which exaggerated the original cause for the first nerf.  Revisit the first nerf - fix the bug.  I think that could go a long way for some people feeling slighted by all of this.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

I do want to say I don't suspect there is any single cause for this, or even the nerfs or changes are to expressly blame. I expect the causes to be multisided and varied, as with any group of people. I am just saying your situation is relatable.

 

I agree 100% with this.  I think there is a lot of frustration to go around.  Which, there is no way to alleviate it all unfortunately.

[lemming]

I think the reason that the bug existed that long is that they didn't really care about the farming XP, but wanted to rein it in a bit.  First change seemed to cut XP, and then much later, the weird math popped out and got fixed.

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Alienating the handful of people who want bugs to exist in the game instead of fixing what is not working as intended? Oh no....

 

So years ago, they intended to do something and made a mistake. And apparently the consequences to this mistake were so negligible in the greater scheme of things that they did not become aware of the mistake they made until recently. So in that time, this unintended parameter become the normal experience of leveling for not just a handful of people--a considerable portion of the playerbase that uses xp boosters. 

 

So now, in the face of other changes that affect farming and pling, they decided to revert this bonus to the intended amount. Why? What is the benefit of reducing the rewards for an activity that people have been routinely doing for years? Well, I'm not seeing any stated benefit other than the delayed satisfaction of someone on the dev team having fixed a bug or ensured that things are working as intended. In other words, nothing related to the consequences of using said booster to voluntarily get through the early grind quickly.

 

Not only is this flimsy ass justification apparently convincing to some people, it's got posters righteously pointing their fingers at other people in the community--"you must want bugs to exist in the game!" LOL wtf. "Working as intended" is whatever the team decides it is at any given moment. The intention years ago when this happened was not part of a secret contract with an eldritch deity. It was a decision. And the choice to now revert to that initial value is likewise a decision.

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

So years ago, they intended to do something and made a mistake. And apparently the consequences to this mistake were so negligible in the greater scheme of things that they did not become aware of the mistake they made until recently. So in that time, this unintended parameter become the normal experience of leveling for not just a handful of people--a considerable portion of the playerbase that uses xp boosters. 

 

So now, in the face of other changes that affect farming and pling, they decided to revert this bonus to the intended amount. Why? What is the benefit of reducing the rewards for an activity that people have been routinely doing for years? Well, I'm not seeing any stated benefit other than the delayed satisfaction of someone on the dev team having fixed a bug or ensured that things are working as intended. In other words, nothing related to the consequences of using said booster to voluntarily get through the early grind quickly.

 

Not only is this flimsy ass justification apparently convincing to some people, it's got posters righteously pointing their fingers at other people in the community--"you must want bugs to exist in the game!" LOL wtf. "Working as intended" is whatever the team decides it is at any given moment. The intention years ago when this happened was not part of a secret contract with an eldritch deity. It was a decision. And the choice to now revert to that initial value is likewise a decision.

They? The Homecoming Team started three or so years ago working from that point on to make this game follow their vision. A bug, exploit, cheat, hax, whatever you want to call is not an intended feature. You aren't going to get me to change my mind on this because of semantics. The rationale has been provided by multiple HC staff members, that is fine with me. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Glacier Peak
started twice*

[Clam Leader]

Farming wasn't nerfed, there were changes made to the xp formulas and old farm maps need to be updated to reflect that.

 

Some attacks got made more dangerous as a result of changes to sets like Fire Melee. Specifically the swords getting -defense. That was a buff to players at the expense of farms becoming a bit riskier.

 

The AI changes are a buff to farms  if you aren't afk.

 

Afk farming shouldn't exist.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

They? The Homecoming Team started three or so years ago and started working from that point on to make this game follow their vision. A bug, exploit, cheat, hax, whatever you want to call is not an intended feature. You aren't going to get me to change my mind on this because of semantics. The rationale has been provided by multiple HC staff members, that is fine with me. 

 

I don't care about changing your mind. It's more about the judgmental way you're framing the issue and mischaracterization of other players. 

[Glacier Peak]

22 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I don't care about changing your mind. It's more about the judgmental way you're framing the issue and mischaracterization of other players. 

Then you've accomplished nothing.