90 Day Return Policy

[Sanguinesun]

On 10/16/2022 at 12:39 AM, Mr. Apocalypse said:

A single run of an AE mission set to standard rewards, (+4/8) usually earns me 3-5 pieces of orange salvage along with enough common IO recopies, if sold at any store for face value, to buy several more orange salvage.  I honestly don't see how anyone can complain about market pricing when Influence/Infamy is so simple to earn in this game. 

 

This is a "let them have cake sentiment" and your method (which is a misdirect from the over bearing/over arching issues of the game economy) is reliant on symptom treating and not treating the cause. Its an intentional misdirection.

 

The auction house is a blind econ game system and was originally intended to be a part of the mechanisms to keep players sub'd and micro transacting. 

 

It is easily exploited then (as now), the current iteration requires seeding by HC for sustainability(in itself a form of exploiting), and is a poorly managed influence sink. 

 

In other words, its a complete mess. The market and game system as it stands is a strong discouragement for new players even after you take pains to explain to them how to circumvent the costs of things on the market wither either exploiting the market as mentioned above or through other means (farming etc).  

 

However, I also do think that any overhauling of the system by the HC devs would ensure --no-- satisfaction for anyone except the "game as a longer time sink" proponents.  An overhaul would most likely involve removal of the market from a player standpoint and replace it with a set standard influence costs system listing every salvage and recipe available. 

 

Problem is that the costs would be set by HC devs to be so high as to essentially be the time gating system I warned of above.  Seeing the prices they set for the seeding salvage currently AND that of the cost for the aesthetic costume menagerie mess they're talking about in the testing(up to 1500 aethers for 1 item), it is easy to see that they'd apply the same mindset to their overhaul.

 

So the issues are at an impasse... for now.    Best players can do is to teach more how to game the system, players to farm and farm more and teach others to do the same and many other things because eventually, the system will change, but just very very likely, as I said, not to the liking of most players.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Sanguinesun

[Rudra]

This is a purely personal take on the AH situation, derived from my own interactions with the market, but some comments....

 

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

The auction house is a blind econ game system and was originally intended to be a part of the mechanisms to keep players sub'd and micro transacting. 

Yep, I agree with you here. Both on the blind economy bit and the likelihood of reason for market existence.

 

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

It is easily exploited then (as now),

No real argument...

 

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

the current iteration requires seeding by HC for sustainability(in itself a form of exploiting)

... huh? Wasn't seeding done to reduce exploitation? How is that itself an exploit?

 

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

and is a poorly managed influence sink. 

Not sure how to view this given how much lower costs for anything are on HC compared to Live. Also, isn't there an ongoing clamor among players to have an inf' sink?

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

In other words, its a complete mess.

Check out the other in-game player markets sometime. I am only familiar with the one in Final Fantasy... 11? ... and Champions Online. The Final Fantasy market was completely closed off to non-end game characters due to pricing and Champions Online promotes both severe price gouging and sale of stripped down powers (vehicles) with no indication of state at the hyper-inflated prices.

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

Problem is that the costs would be set by HC devs to be so high as to essentially be the time gating system I warned of above. 

I'm going to call that fear-mongering. As already stated, the prices on the HC market are WAAAAAAAY lower than they were back on Live.

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

Seeing the prices they set for the seeding salvage currently AND that of the cost for the aesthetic costume menagerie mess they're talking about in the testing(up to 1500 aethers for 1 item), it is easy to see that they'd apply the same mindset to their overhaul.

I'm confused. Isn't the price rate for Aethers currently dictated by the players and not yet settled on a fair market value?

 

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

So the issues are at an impasse... for now.    Best players can do is to teach more how to game the system, players to farm and farm more and teach others to do the same and many other things because eventually, the system will change, but just very very likely, as I said, not to the liking of most players.

You've made multiple comments that confused me, but the ending is the most confusing of all. I personally don't know how to game the system and am not inclined to do so. The market is a fine venue for me to dump my salvage and recipes, and a relatively reliable place for me to get my attuned IOs. There are times when I go to buy and the prices are higher than I remember in which case I walk away and try again some other time or post a request at the previous cost and see if I can get it, or lower than I was expecting in which case I quickly grab the IOs I've been waiting for. Otherwise, the prices are typically at a set level and I am almost making a standard store purchase.

 

Again, all this is based on my personal interactions with the market, so take it with a grain of salt. However, it really feels like you are just trying to scare people.

[Mr. Apocalypse]

2 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

This is a "let them have cake sentiment" and your method (which is a misdirect from the over bearing/over arching issues of the game economy) is reliant on symptom treating and not treating the cause. Its an intentional misdirection.

 

 

I was simply stating that it is easier to get orange salvage by taking standard rewards rather than using AE tickets. And despite what you think, even without farming for infamy, the market costs are fairly cheap.

I know its anecdotal, but I built my first 2  toons without the benefit of farming, and never found the prices to be too high during the process, especially when I had flashbacks of the cost on the old live servers. 

 

It was surely not a case of "let them have cake" sentimentality, but rather a "teach a man to fish" moment!

[Sanguinesun]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

... huh? Wasn't seeding done to reduce exploitation? How is that itself an exploit?

 

 

1.  Its an exploit of the market (dev side) because of the lack of sustainability/issues with prices.   It it helps, consider it more a market manipulation name wise.

 

2. The seeding isn't a constant.  Buy out quantities when the seeding pops or hasnt seeded yet then flip higher. That's why there are pockets of time when the uncommon salvage jumps above 15k-20k a pop as one example.   

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Not sure how to view this given how much lower costs for anything are on HC compared to Live. Also, isn't there an ongoing clamor among players to have an inf' sink?

 

 

False equivalency.  If you're comparing to live where I already cited the function/purpose of the market, that you already agreed with, then citing makes little relevance. Higher then with still being too high now and a discouragement for players doesn't depreciate the issue of it being unreasonable.   As for a clamor for inf sinks, can you cite some threads of examples of this so as to put into context who and why they're calling for it for reference sake? 

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Check out the other in-game player markets sometime. I am only familiar with the one in Final Fantasy... 11? ... and Champions Online. The Final Fantasy market was completely closed off to non-end game characters due to pricing and Champions Online promotes both severe price gouging and sale of stripped down powers (vehicles) with no indication of state at the hyper-inflated prices.

 

 

Again false equivalencies meant to say because they got it seemingly worse that CoH should have it bad as it is.  Citing Champions Online is also in itself ironic given that cryptic built that game as well and it has resulted in what it is today, at the expense of its players....

 

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

I'm going to call that fear-mongering. As already stated, the prices on the HC market are WAAAAAAAY lower than they were back on Live.

I'm confused. Isn't the price rate for Aethers currently dictated by the players and not yet settled on a fair market value?

 

 

I'm not making a comparison to the market rate by players selling aethers that you erroneously seem to think.

 

There is no fear mongering as you wish to perceive(or claim as a tactic).   My point with citing the incoming cost of the costumes for the next phase being up to and including individual

costume price costs up to 1500 (again for one item) aethers was to cite that IF the system were turned into a Developer set price for the market where players no longer made auctions but instead simply purchased for a flat price items that they would set the pricing for such to be very high in order to increase the time gating of the game from its current state.  

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

You've made multiple comments that confused me, but the ending is the most confusing of all.

 

Given your responses, I understand your seeming confusion with what I'm trying to say.  

 

What I'm trying to convey is:

 

1. The current system is a bandaid on a brain tumor of a mess.

 

2. That new players are discouraged by the current system in place to play the game.

 

3. That unraveling and sorting that mess will, per the trend of recent dev decisions, result in a system that would favor their desire to see the game return to a longer, time gated, play experience.  I cited that this has been exemplified in both the decision for costs for purchasing upcoming costumes being high and that essentially in that thread it was alluded to that devs want things(not just the aether grind) to take longer.

 

4. That the current system is in a sort of limbo(an empasse) because the fundamental changes that would have to be implemented to it would pretty much cause more contention. 

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

The market is a fine venue for me to dump my salvage and recipes, and a relatively reliable place for me to get my attuned IOs. There are times when I go to buy and the prices are higher than I remember in which case I walk away and try again some other time or post a request at the previous cost and see if I can get it, or lower than I was expecting in which case I quickly grab the IOs I've been waiting for. Otherwise, the prices are typically at a set level and I am almost making a standard store purchase.

 

Again, all this is based on my personal interactions with the market, so take it with a grain of salt. However, it really feels like you are just trying to scare people.

 

You've cited one gaming of the system there.  Others(especially the anti farming ilk) would cite AE farms as another.   Getting them lower and flipping them higher as I cited and as Im sure you've done on occasion.   There are also other market activities where players buy from the market at 10 then vendor trash for 100k (IO regular  recipes), or similar with SO's for lower but still influence making, using other systems in the game to produce items quickly that can be sold for easy influence that people talk about all the time for similar and the list really does go on and on .  

 

Saying though that things are all at a set level is just disingenuous on the market. It is disheartening when you see new players come into the game, get sticker shock from the prices in the market, explain how they can go earn influence to get what they want or such and they seem to have their interests wane there after.  The game's economy is one of the most flawed aspects of the game that feeds into so much else in the game including not a small number of contentions in the community(like the pro/anti farming debates).  Then when you have devs saying(and not the first time):

 

On 10/13/2022 at 7:46 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

As Six mentioned, the game suffers from an issue where players can reasonably get to maxed out very quickly.  

 

Again, leveling (as they perceive it) fast is an ---issue----. Not an acceptable way of playing the game but an issue.  They perceive the game suffering because of it.

 

That means there are devs or a even consensus from the dev team that wishes to change that.  There are also some players of course in their wheelhouse of thinking too about that.

 

This is why I said the evidence is compelling that if they made a standardized flat rate system for all salvage, IO sets listings, etc that it would be high in influence costs as to make things take more time.  I could even see them removing purchase by influence in favor of a more gated system such as with merits  as folks level or any number of combinations of things resulting in satisfying their desire to see an increase in time spent. 

 

And again though, the results would eventually create a similar situation, potentially worse than what we have now as players have become comfortable/accustomed to the current pace of play, though acknowledging the poor economics of the game.   I don't look at it as scaring people as you wish to frame it.  I look at it as something folks should be mindful of if the community is more inclined to not agree with the status quo of things now, the seeming mindset of the dev team and decisions being made now and potentially going forward.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lemming]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

4 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

Seeing the prices they set for the seeding salvage currently AND that of the cost for the aesthetic costume menagerie mess they're talking about in the testing(up to 1500 aethers for 1 item), it is easy to see that they'd apply the same mindset to their overhaul.

I'm confused. Isn't the price rate for Aethers currently dictated by the players and not yet settled on a fair market value?

He's probably talking about the prices currently set for the costumes which the tier 4 is 1500, but the other tiers are sorta reasonably priced.   Apples meet Orange comparison IMO

[Sanguinesun]

11 minutes ago, lemming said:

He's probably talking about the prices currently set for the costumes which the tier 4 is 1500, but the other tiers are sorta reasonably priced.   Apples meet Orange comparison IMO

 

Its again not just about the highest priced item in itself, its about the intent to make more time sinks and with high priced solutions for it.   That same formula being a potential method then going forward, again given the trend by devs and what they're saying with leveling, is what I'm saying should be looked at with concern.   Its the direction/trajectory.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

As for a clamor for inf sinks, can you cite some threads of examples of this so as to put into context who and why they're calling for it for reference sake? 

I am disinclined to search the forums for the posters and their comments. Just keep an eye on the threads. It turns up routinely. At least on threads that talk about inf' for powers or respecs.

 

16 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 Getting them lower and flipping them higher as I cited and as Im sure you've done on occasion.   

I was fine with most of your response, but that is a false assumption on your part. When I buy something from the AH, I use it. If it turns out I bought a duplicate? I throw it back on the market for 1 inf'. Every time. Most times I take a massive loss. Sometimes I only take the AH cost as a loss.

[Sanguinesun]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

I am disinclined to search the forums for the posters and their comments. Just keep an eye on the threads. It turns up routinely. At least on threads that talk about inf' for powers or respecs.

 

I was fine with most of your response, but that is a false assumption on your part. When I buy something from the AH, I use it. If it turns out I bought a duplicate? I throw it back on the market for 1 inf'. Every time. Most times I take a massive loss. Sometimes I only take the AH cost as a loss.

 

Being disinclined to cite the sources is fine.  I just have to consider the claim skeptically.

 

As for your saying you have never flipped, that would make you an exception and not the rule for many players, especially new ones desperately trying to earn influence.  And essentially you're feeding the flipping by throwing such back up there for 1 influence. Meaning, you could say your philanthropy is enabling/incentivizing flipping as well.   I've nothing against that choice but I am saying that its all part of the vicious circle so to speak.

[Cobalt Arachne]

11 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

  On 10/12/2022 at 6:46 PM, Cobalt Arachne said:

As Six mentioned, the game suffers from an issue where players can reasonably get to maxed out very quickly.  

I'm being misquoted to the entirely wrong effect here... Please include my entire post so you aren't misleading people:

 

Quote

As Six mentioned, the game suffers from an issue where players can reasonably get to maxed out very quickly. For veterans, new maxed characters can be a done in matter of *hours*, but then these built-out characters have nothing to do and have nothing to work towards.

 

The issue I'm referring to is that maxed-out Level 50's have nothing to do once they've reached that point. We have no problems with how fast people reach max, it's more that once they've gotten there, there's almost nothing to do with them if you aren't interested in collecting badges. If the new reward system was trying to do anything to address progression, it's doing a terrible job, since aether is used exclusively for vanity cosmetics, which have absolutely nothing to do with character growth.

The recent changes are aimed towards giving maxed out 50 characters some things they can be used towards with regularity that's worth the time, either because you like costumes or you like the influence that people who like costumes will pay for your aether.

[Linea]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:33 AM, Canadian Anvil said:

• Orange Salvage: 9998987 for sale; 33703 bids; last five sales are four x 550,000 and one at 1,000,000

If you are having to pay 1m for rare salvage, that means the PLAYER SUPPLY of salvage has been exhausted, and you are buying from the GM SEEDED SALVAGE PRICE CAP.

 

The AH was seeded with about 10m of each salvage at 1m orange, 100k yellow, and 10k white I think it was.

 

Quote

2. The seeding isn't a constant.  Buy out quantities when the seeding pops or hasnt seeded yet then flip higher. That's why there are pockets of time when the uncommon salvage jumps above 15k-20k a pop as one example.   

It was seeded with 10m of each.   I doubt the seeding has ever been bought out, nor will it ever be.  It's there as an emergency price cap, any manipulation you see is purely player based.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Linea

[Grouchybeast]

18 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

1.  Its an exploit of the market (dev side) because of the lack of sustainability/issues with prices.   It it helps, consider it more a market manipulation name wise.

 

2. The seeding isn't a constant.  Buy out quantities when the seeding pops or hasnt seeded yet then flip higher. That's why there are pockets of time when the uncommon salvage jumps above 15k-20k a pop as one example. 

 

This isn't how the salvage seeding on the AH works at all.

 

At the beginning of HC, the devs seeded the market with very large pools of common, uncommon and rare salvage.  The prices of those seeded salvages are 10,000 for common, 100,000 for uncommon, and 1,000,000 for rare.  If you buy salvage on the AH for less than those prices, then that salvage was listed by another player.  As you can tell by salvage prices, the seeded pools are almost never touched.

[Canadian Anvil]

Wow. This has gone on for three pages. My earning power has increased as I have jacked up my prices. As I said in other post here: I'm not suffering; I'm benefiting. My data is subjective. I do not have access to the database where I can run queries:

• daily cost:
  • over a 60 day period
  • over a 6 month period
  • over a 12 month period
• weekly cost:
  • over a 6 month period
  • over a 12 month period
  • over a 2 year period
• monthly cost:
  • over a 6 month period
  • over a 12 month period
  • over a 2 year period
  • over a 10 year (in this case lifetime) period

And then look for trends to see if the average price is creeping up as I suspect it is; when the highest time of day, week, month of pricing/selling, so on and so forth (almost like I use to to this for a living).

 

If it is, then it is what it is; if it is not, then it is what it is. Either way, I'll sleep at night as this is all an intangible universe.

 

BTW: y'all notice the price of yellow salvage lately

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Canadian Anvil said:

And then look for trends to see if the average price is creeping up as I suspect it is; when the highest time of day, week, month of pricing/selling, so on and so forth (almost like I use to to this for a living).

 

I record the sale prices of every IO that I list, and I can say that prices have been pretty steady since early/mid 2020.  I took a long break from the game and when I came back in September this year I claimed all the sold listings I had.  Most had sold for approximately the same as current prices at some point since then, some were now a little higher and some were now a little lower.  I actually had to delist and relist a stack of Karma KB protections which had sat unsold for at least 18 months, maybe longer, which suggests the price has been consistently lower for the whole period.

[AboveTheChemist]

2 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

I record the sale prices of every IO that I list, and I can say that prices have been pretty steady since early/mid 2020.

 

I record all my sales as well, dating back to late 2019, and I agree with your observation that prices since then have been fairly steady.

[Darkaiser]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:40 PM, Rudra said:

I really like items 1 & 2. 3? Not so much. Won't cry if it were to be implemented, unless people start listing their items at that price, but not really a fan.

I don't think anyone would bother posting something at a huge markup because then someone else might undercut them by a few percent. Then the next person does the same and soon we have balance again because the Market is working the way Markets are supposed to work.

 

TBH the last idea was only a last-minute thing anyway. If the first 2 were adopted, I wouldn't cry if the last one were not.