Let's talk Force Field

[shaggy]

I'm looking to give the new FF a shot and was wondering what powers go well with it. What's are some good secondaries to pair with it? Is it worth taking as a Defender over something like a Controller? Is it worth building around Dampening Bubble? Is Dampening Bubble even worth getting for the debuff protection? Can Repulsion Field be used to herd enemies into corners like the old Force Bubble? I'd love to hear what others think about this set since its rework.

Edited October 19, 2022 by shaggy

[Psyonico]

Dark Blast or Dual Pistols would be my choice for secondary.

 

Dark adds to-hit debuffs to your defense while Dual Pistols can use chemical rounds to lower enemy damage.

 

Repulsion Field works like a combination of the two powers it replaced.  Just don't slot a KB->KD in it and you can still use it just like Force Bubble.

 

I haven't gotten a chance to try Dampening Bubble yet, but it seems promising.

[shaggy]

That's a good point about Dark! I would love to roll with it, but I've never been a fan of dark blast aesthetically. Dual pistols on the other hand I run with almost everything, so I feel like I need to change it up haha.

 

I know it's the dark sheep of the secondaries, but I think I'm going to try Assault Rifle. I BELIEVE you can slot it for procs decently enough, and I like the idea of being able to herd groups into my ignite/full auto corner. Plus, I think Power Boost will be a nice way of getting those Gaussian procs AR lacks. I wonder if the Homecoming team has thought about giving the set any more buffs...

 

Good to know about Repulsion Field! Definitely going to have to practice with it once I get some more levels in.

 

Dampening Bubble seems like a weird one. On one hand, I can see the value in all the debuff resistance. On the other, it seems like you won't even realize what it's doing 99% of the time. Kind of weird for being the final power in the set.

[Linea]

FF/DP for fun.

FF/Water for Self Durabilty and Utility.

 

Clarion Radial T4 * (Power Boost or Power Build Up) * Bubbles are almost twice as strong, and retain that strength for the entire duration so long as you do not overwrite them with weaker unboosted bubbles.   However, that means you can only bubble 2 to 3 pairs of targets maximum every 2 minutes if you're using clarion, or 1 minute if you're only using PB.  IF you recast bubbles without the boosts, the new bubbles will be weaker, and will overwrite the older stronger bubbles.  The bubbles are AOE.  That means that so long as all team members are at least relatively close to either of the two targets that you cast enhanced bubbles on, then the entire (at least in theory) gets double strength boosted bubbles.  The entire team except for that guy that keeps hanging 100 feet behind everyone else and out of sight hoping nothing kills him.

 

ITF MRA 2d build - is Mattea's current heavy support build that uses Clarion and PB.  This build pushes out huge defense buffs.  This build has standard defense soft-cap armor, with Rune/Hybrid/Rune Demonic for resists.  Which since this is DP without procs means minimal offense.  DP is fun, but very low on the offense list without procs, and considerably higher WITH procs.

 

Dahkness' build - is a proc build from another thread.  He builds very nice offensive proc builds, and this one will put out some huge defense buffs as well.  But has less self-armor.  But that procced offense is nothing to sneeze at.  But the lower self armor means you'll probably be midline support.

 

STF SLE build - has standard bubbles, but extreme levels of SLE self-armor and resistances.  Layer Dampeners on top of that for even more armor.  It's a really nice self sufficient build for difficult missions.  However, as it's SLE based instead of MRA based, Psionics can be an issue with this otherwise very durable build.

 

Dark Beta build - this is a very old full standard self armor and full offense non-proc build, built prior to proc builds becoming the latest craze.

 

And then there are dozens more variations.

 

FF DP Soul Def - Heavy Support - ITF MRA 2d+ - [i27].mxd FF Ice Defender - Dahkness Bubble Proc 1 - [i27].mxd FF DP Scorpion Def - STF SLE 1d - [i25].mxd FF DP Defender - Dark Beta 1b - [i25].mxd

Edited October 19, 2022 by Linea

[Sir Myshkin]

11 hours ago, shaggy said:

I know it's the dark sheep of the secondaries, but I think I'm going to try Assault Rifle. I BELIEVE you can slot it for procs decently enough, and I like the idea of being able to herd groups into my ignite/full auto corner.

 

Assault Rifle really isn't that bad and gets a lot more flack than it should considering. If that's the direction you're going then it'll be very easy to stream line that build since there's only a core handful of powers in that set that are truly needed once you weed out the duds. Burst, Buckshot, Sniper Rifle, Ignite, and Full Auto; honorable mention to M30 for extra AoE, but purely as a proc'd out power because its base value is just too low to have worth, but it does proc very nicely and is another great FF+Rech kicker.

 

With Soul Mastery for Soul Drain, Power Boost, and grabbing that Pet for added damage, you can put together a pretty nasty little bubbler once some Recharge packs into the build to get Soul Drain down. Another small secret that most tend not to consider too, if you get enough active recharge into a build to get Power Boost capable of being near-perma, its effect does impact toggles like Weave, Maneuvers, and Dispersion Bubble and turn Power Boost into a panic button for debuff prevention, or change up play modes for harder content.

 

This is a "blank" shell to give a general idea of that ground work. It's basic-slotted just to show where the build can start from. It's very easy to get it from this point to 45% M/R/A with just a couple of set bonuses, and you can leave a lot of the attacks proc'd out. Given that Mid's isn't updated I didn't really go through a ton of crazy effort because it wouldn't be 100% accurate.

 

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Edit: I forgot to mention I left one power slot open for a travel choice, and there's 14 unplaced slots for.. where ever. Like I said, really a shell.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Sir Myshkin

[shaggy]

On 10/20/2022 at 3:37 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

This is a "blank" shell to give a general idea of that ground work. It's basic-slotted just to show where the build can start from. It's very easy to get it from this point to 45% M/R/A with just a couple of set bonuses, and you can leave a lot of the attacks proc'd out. Given that Mid's isn't updated I didn't really go through a ton of crazy effort because it wouldn't be 100% accurate.

 

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Edit: I forgot to mention I left one power slot open for a travel choice, and there's 14 unplaced slots for.. where ever. Like I said, really a shell.

 

Hey I really appreciate it! So far, I'm actually really enjoying the combo. I have no idea how to really proc out powers. I'm guessing just slot as many of the unique proc effects into M30 grenade, Burst, and Repulsion Bomb?

 

I went ahead and made a build here. The resistances kind of suck (75% on smashing/lethal, 30% psionic, sub 20% on everything else), but the defense is stupid high (100+% on everything but toxic which is at 55%). Is there anything obvious I'm missing?

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Assault Rifle
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection Shield

• (A) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
• (3) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance
• (11) Shield Wall - Defense
• (17) Shield Wall - Defense/Recharge
• (17) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
• (19) Shield Wall - Endurance/Recharge

Level 1: Burst

• (A) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
• (11) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage
• (13) Apocalypse - Damage
• (13) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
• (33) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
• (33) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance

Level 2: Force Bolt

• (A) Accuracy IO

Level 4: Buckshot

• (A) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage
• (19) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance
• (21) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (21) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (31) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
• (33) Superior Frozen Blast - Recharge/Chance for Immobilize

Level 6: Insulation Shield

• (A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
• (7) Red Fortune - Defense
• (9) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
• (46) Red Fortune - Endurance

Level 8: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (9) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 10: M30 Grenade

• (A) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
• (23) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage
• (23) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
• (25) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback to Knockdown
• (25) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 12: Dispersion Bubble

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (15) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (15) Luck of the Gambler - Defense

Level 14: Maneuvers

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense

Level 16: Tactics

• (A) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff
• (31) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance
• (43) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance/Recharge

Level 18: Repulsion Field

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 20: Sniper Rifle

• (A) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage
• (34) Superior Vigilant Assault - Damage/RechargeTime
• (34) Superior Vigilant Assault - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (34) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (36) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (36) Superior Vigilant Assault - RechargeTime/PBAoE +Absorb

Level 22: Hover

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 24: Fly

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 26: Repulsion Bomb

• (A) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage
• (27) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
• (27) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
• (29) Absolute Amazement - Chance for ToHit Debuff
• (29) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
• (31) Accuracy IO

Level 28: Vengeance

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 30: Boxing

• (A) Empty

Level 32: Tough

• (A) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
• (37) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance
• (40) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance
• (42) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
• (43) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
• (43) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance

Level 35: Ignite

• (A) Bombardment - Damage
• (36) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (37) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge/Endurance
• (37) Bombardment - Damage/Recharge
• (48) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage
• (48) Bombardment - Accuracy/Recharge/Endurance

Level 38: Full Auto

• (A) Ragnarok - Damage
• (39) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
• (39) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
• (39) Ragnarok - Recharge/Accuracy
• (40) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
• (40) Ragnarok - Chance for Knockdown

Level 41: Power Build Up

• (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
• (42) Recharge Reduction IO
• (42) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 44: Temp Invulnerability

• (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
• (45) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
• (45) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
• (45) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance/Rech/End
• (46) Gladiator's Armor - Recharge/Endurance
• (46) Gladiator's Armor - Recharge/Resist

Level 47: Force Bubble

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (48) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 49: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 1: Brawl

• (A) Empty

Level 1: Sprint

• (A) Empty

Level 1: Vigilance 

Level 2: Rest

Edited October 22, 2022 by shaggy

[shaggy]

I procced out M30 Grenade and Force Bomb and wow! This combo is actually really fun! I can effectively "tank" alpha strikes for my teammates by starting off with a Force Bomb into a Full Auto into an M30 Grenade, melting enemies while keeping them bouncing around long enough for my team to lay down the hurt and CC. I can't wait to bring this into harder content!

[Sir Myshkin]

20 hours ago, shaggy said:

Is there anything obvious I'm missing?

 

You have some imbalance on slotting in a few areas. Some places that could use a slot or two (or just better assortment of choices), and others that are over slotted for the power. One quick thing off the bat, if you're not going to shoot for something like Soul Drain, there's pretty much no reason for Hasten to exist in your build.

 

When you measured your defenses you have everything turned on, and this is an unrealistic scenario presentation. Power Boost (or Build Up in this case) only lasts a short amount of time, this is ideally only being used to boost Deflective and Insulation Shields application, or as a panic button in between for defense bumping. Vengeance isn't really called for here. You could just take Assault and provide effective the same exact benefits 24/7 without waiting for someone to kick the bucket; in fact you'll find you won't see many folks kicking the bucket with 45% defense. Of which, there's set levels of where defense matters. For most of the game 45% is the "cap" (or what we call the Soft Cap) when the value of liklihood to get hit has reached its peak, then the iCap (59% rounded), and the Hard Mode (which is just scaled ridiculous). This build pretty much provides "iCap" to the party (just shy, 56% rounded). These are the goals to try and focus on with something like Force Fields.

 

For Proc Monstering, you do want to try and leverage a little bit of your damage since Defenders do still get some decent value there, at least one IO's worth is a good call. Personally I'd invest two slots to patching things like Acc/Dam/End and then filling in the rest, but some powers you can slum down a bit, and Defenders get a lot of mileage out of Tactics thankfully.

 

I went back to the original shell and modified it into a full build to give you a comparison:

Spoiler

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[shaggy]

11 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

 One quick thing off the bat, if you're not going to shoot for something like Soul Drain, there's pretty much no reason for Hasten to exist in your build.

 

Isn't the extra cooldown reduction good to have anyway? Having Full Auto and Power Boost up more often never seems like a bad thing.

 

 

11 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Vengeance isn't really called for here. You could just take Assault and provide effective the same exact benefits 24/7 without waiting for someone to kick the bucket; in fact you'll find you won't see many folks kicking the bucket with 45% defense.

I thought it was largely agreed that Venge is much better than Assault? Sure it's situational, but it can take a Luck of the Gambler, gives MUCH better buffs than Assault, and doesn't drain your end. I expect to be doing harder content so I wouldn't be surprised to get some extra use out of it.

 

11 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

For Proc Monstering, you do want to try and leverage a little bit of your damage since Defenders do still get some decent value there, at least one IO's worth is a good call. Personally I'd invest two slots to patching things like Acc/Dam/End and then filling in the rest, but some powers you can slum down a bit, and Defenders get a lot of mileage out of Tactics thankfully.

Ah ok, I wasn't sure how much accuracy I need for an end-game build.

[Sir Myshkin]

3 hours ago, shaggy said:

Isn't the extra cooldown reduction good to have anyway? Having Full Auto and Power Boost up more often never seems like a bad thing.

Carry a Force Feedback +Rech in Buckshot and Repulsion Bomb and they’ll proc regularly enough to way over compensate, plus it’s possible to already squeeze around 70-80% global in the build as-is. Full Auto will be up around every 25-30/s still in that scenario which is fine, Hasten isn’t going to change that much.
 

Power Boost, that’s either an all or nothing. Go all in and knock it down to perma, or have it where it lives without stressing the build without reason. Just as with Full Auto, the FF proc will help a lot and you’ll actually only have around 30:s of downtime with Power Boost, longer however if you choose Power Build Up.

 

3 hours ago, shaggy said:

thought it was largely agreed that Venge is much better than Assault? Sure it's situational, but it can take a Luck of the Gambler, gives MUCH better buffs than Assault, and doesn't drain your end. I expect to be doing harder content so I wouldn't be surprised to get some extra use out of it.

You don’t need the mule, you’re flush on places for that already, you’re a Defender who—when teaming—has scaling endurance benefits on an already very manageable build. If you’re planning on doing Hard Mode primarily, than it could potentially be more useful purely for the damage bonus.

 

I’ll correct my numbers if I have them wrong later but if I recall correctly Assault on a Defender is 15% 18.75% constant, and Vengeance is 25% 35% for just its duration. You’d have to have at least a 50% uptime on Vengeance for it to even compete with the damage buff that Assault would be granting the team continuously. And with Tactics you’ll already be potentially bringing close to 18% ToHit to the team. Since Vengeance can be impacted by recharge, and has a 120/s duration, it is possible to get it "perma" at the cost of someone's death. This is the factor that makes it impractical to balance uptime without intentional planning.

Not saying *don’t* take it, but you very well could find it being a power you rarely/never use unless you plan on spending a lot of time in Hard Mode content. I say that as a Force Fielder myself. Even on a Controller Build the power often just sat there unused, but I carried it because I wasn’t using a boosted build.

 

If you’re playing without it now, try avoiding it and see how you feel. If you do have it, keep going and finish building and see what happens.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Sir Myshkin
updated the correct numbers.

[Doomguide2005]

Defenders Assault is 18.75% (which, of course, makes the math worse for Vengeance).

Controllers sit at 15%.

 

Then again most of my Defenders try to carry both out of habit i suppose.  

[smnolimits43]

I know this is the defender forum, but i've been playing a Merc/FF MM, and am really enjoying it.  

[Zect]

FF is now among the most overpowered support sets (imo right behind the king and queen of kin and cold). My personal favorite is to pair it with something offensive - with /sonic you output the same amount of -res as a full-fledged debuff set, while effortlessly softcapping to all positions and none of your powers have the typical high recharge requirements of support sets, opening up possibilities for innovative hasteless builds.

 

Also, I don't know why that build up there has vengeance. The purpose of vengeance is a wipe preventer. Someone dies, you venge and make it very hard for anyone else to die. On a set that is already defensively oriented, the focus should be on getting as much offensive power instead.

[StriderIV]

9 hours ago, Zect said:

FF is now among the most overpowered support sets (imo right behind the king and queen of kin and cold). My personal favorite is to pair it with something offensive - with /sonic you output the same amount of -res as a full-fledged debuff set, while effortlessly softcapping to all positions and none of your powers have the typical high recharge requirements of support sets, opening up possibilities for innovative hasteless builds.

 

Also, I don't know why that build up there has vengeance. The purpose of vengeance is a wipe preventer. Someone dies, you venge and make it very hard for anyone else to die. On a set that is already defensively oriented, the focus should be on getting as much offensive power instead.

FF/Sonic seems pretty cool and thematic.

[Linea]

On 10/25/2022 at 9:22 AM, Zect said:

 vengeance.

 

PRO: **IF** it's a Clarion*PB*Bubbles Hardmode build, then vengeance can add another 65 to 85 defense to prevent a cascade wipe because the team pulled too many EBs and is suddenly facing a defense soft-cap of over 200 defense with an insta-splatted tank who was an idiot and ran into a room with 7 EBs with tactics on a 4-Star, 200 defense soft-cap which is also over the tanker hard-cap for defense.   That has the capability of one defender to pump out ~165 team-wide defense.  (Yes being a Leroy Idiot is SOP on speed runs, but those teams 'usually' know what they are doing and try to ensure hardcapped def/res 24/7.  One of those teams would ideally leverage the Clarion*PBU*Bubbles to allow for an otherwise more diverse less cookie cutter team.  vengeance should not be required on a decent or better team.)

 

Con: Most teams res so fast, or hospital so fast, you don't have a prayer of getting of a full Clarion*PB*Vengeance.  You'll be lucky to get off a PB*Vengeance for ~65 defense, and a total of ~145 team-wide defense.

 

Double-Con: Even worse, most random teams won't even have the discipline to let you properly leverage Clarion*PB*Bubbles.  Buff Discipline matters. 

 

**IF** the team cooperates you're a defense buffing monster of monsters, if not, the entire build is effectively wasted and you should have gone high recharge near-perma //Dark/Souldrain instead.  Or just roll a Cold/.  The players that can't understand how to leverage FF and won't let you do your job, will just love the K.I.S.S of Cold/ even if it's only putting out 20 defense instead of 165 defense.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Linea

[MistressOhm]

Vengeance is really only useful if you've an entire team that has it - stacked, it's insanely OP, but with only one application it's not that great.  As such, it's more a situational gimmick than a must-have.   It also needs a faceplanted teammate to use, so if you are mostly a solo player, don't bother.  

[Linea]

3 hours ago, MistressOhm said:

Vengeance is really only useful if you've an entire team that has it - stacked, it's insanely OP, but with only one application it's not that great. 

 

(Clarion * PB/PBU * Vengeance) isn't your normal unslotted vengeance mule.  (Clarion * PB/PBU * Vengeance) can be up to +85 defense in a 100' radius, and can be recharged by the time it expires.  It 'can' be very valuable in Hardmode.

 

Typically Vengeance no longer stacks with other vengeances, the only way to stack it is to have everyone cast it simultaneously such that each copy starts casting before the animation ends.  The only exception is that you can stack standard vengeance with veat vengeance, as they are different powers.

 

[Psylenz0511]

Chiming in on the FF +rech proc, it makes a big difference having that in secondary powers with KB/KD. I refer mostly to my proc mad Storm/energy blast defender that has so many FF +recharge opportunities. One concern about force bomb, I thought the chance for KD was ridiculously murdered instead of the 40% chance in the belated forcefield repulsion bomb. Did I miss something on the proc ability of Force Bomb?

[roleki]

8 hours ago, Psylenz0511 said:

Chiming in on the FF +rech proc, it makes a big difference having that in secondary powers with KB/KD. I refer mostly to my proc mad Storm/energy blast defender that has so many FF +recharge opportunities. One concern about force bomb, I thought the chance for KD was ridiculously murdered instead of the 40% chance in the belated forcefield repulsion bomb. Did I miss something on the proc ability of Force Bomb?

 

Chance for KB n Force Bomb is 100%; chance for Stun is now 10%, down from 40.  I've always used 1 damage proc, 1 -Res proc, the FF+Rech, and the KB:KD enhancement in Repulsion/Force Bomb, along with an Acc/Dam/End and an Acc/Dam/Rech.  Never lets me down.

[Griffyn]

10 hours ago, roleki said:

 

Chance for KB n Force Bomb is 100%; chance for Stun is now 10%, down from 40.  I've always used 1 damage proc, 1 -Res proc, the FF+Rech, and the KB:KD enhancement in Repulsion/Force Bomb, along with an Acc/Dam/End and an Acc/Dam/Rech.  Never lets me down.

You can swap out the KB:KD as it now uses vectored KU

[roleki]

58 minutes ago, Griffyn said:

You can swap out the KB:KD as it now uses vectored KU

 

I'd wondered about that; when I ran it on Test it was vs +3 ToT mobs, and they weren't blowing away.  I haven't tested much on Live because I got 100 alts that each need to kill 25 EBs.