What Happened to GM Led Weekly Discussions?

[PeregrineFalcon]

I've seen a lot of people claim, "We didn't ask for these changes." And yet, as Troo showed in the OP, in fact a lot of these changes were asked for. I could go down the list, but you can also do that for yourselves, and I'm not interested in doing your homework for you.

 

Just as an example, in the plethora of anti-knockback threads, people showed that they have a tendency to think that what they, or they and a couple of friends they game with, like or dislike is representative of the entire player base. Something that was disproved by the knockback survey linked in one of those threads.

 

Now, in the past, I got into a discussion with a specific developer here on the forums and I said, "No one in that thread wanted a combo system added to Energy Melee." In that case I was being very specific. I wasn't claiming that the entire player base felt the same way as me, I referred to a specific thread. Which, while not proof that the entire player base feels a certain way, was at least proof that some people felt a certain way.

 

And I think that's the key. If you want to persuade the developers (or any rational adult really) to do or not do something you can't just scream emotional nonsense the way you do on Twitter. You have to explain your point of view, preferably with some numbers to back up your assertions.

[Glacier Peak]

On the topic of discussion, while I did enjoy the GM led weekly discussions, it seemed to me like a ton of work to run. I am just glad I can put a reaction emoji on other player's posts so I don't have to write a bunch of stuff. Who has the time to do even that!

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I am just glad I can put a reaction emoji on other player's posts so I don't have to write a bunch of stuff. Who has the time to do even that!

 

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Exactly! I'm starting to amass a small cache of gif/memes to use to respond to posts. I just don't have the time that I used to that allowed me to write up a coherent response or a pithy reply to someone. Which is why I can understand why GM led weekly threads were so much work to continue. 

 

Who knows though, we've got a great community - I have already seen some forum regulars step up and keep discussion on topic. And if someone is passionate about something, it's not work, right?

[Astralock]

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

Right then, a few thoughts.

 

1. "People asked for X" - This is a moot point. How many people? When? On which change? How many people liked it and how many people didn't? Considering that less than half of the people even use the forums and even less use the discord, lets have some fun with math. (pretext: these figures are by no means accurate and are entirely therotical but I am using them to make a point.)

 

Lets be generous and say that 40% of players use the forums. I doubt its even that high, but lets go with that. And lets use a pool of 1000 people for context.

1000 people = 400 people using the forums.

Now on any given change, perhaps 1/4th of those people might chime in either for or against it. So that brings us down to 100.

Out of those 100, a change seems to be about 50/50 for and against. Some voices are louder than others certainly. But this is just painting a picture for context.

This leaves an entirely theoretical 50 out of 1000 people, are openly requesting and supporting a change.

 

I would hardly call 1/20th a validation or a "majority."

 

2. Robots only "sucked" if you had "moar DPS" tunnel vision. If they were so terrible, why were they one of the most popular MMs played? They were just behind Demons and Thugs for popularity. They were quite strong in support, as a single Robots/Time MM could softcap everyones DEF entirely by themselves, bring a bit of AoE, and some -regen to boot. The notion that the new robots is a 100% improvement for all builds across the board is false. My own Demons and Thug MMs still do more damage than my Robots does, while I lost the built in -regen tool. And forgive me if I don't choose the honor of using precious power picks on -regen, when I can get more mileage out of things like Group Fly, Fold Space, Leadership, particularly on a AT that has a damage and END penalty to personal attacks. The robots remake didn't make them "better," it only gave them something to do. Personally the only upside to the new Robots is the built in heal, which is quite nice for sets like Cold or Sonic.

 

I am not trying to be argumentative or confrontational Astralock, truly. But I do resent the notion that all changes were good, that all were requested by the community, or that everyone likes them. Now I hope we mutually agree that some change is better than no change at all, but it would be intellectually dishonest to pretend for a moment that all of these updates are even popular. (It varies from change to change, as well they should.) But for a growing part of the community, they are starting to dislike more than like changes the more we recieve.

 

For the record, I would appreciate a boost to those who enjoy single player activities the most, and not just a single AT. Because the gap between single player and team play only keeps growing, in particular with regards to the changes in farming. But that is a discussion that's been done to death. I only mention what I would personally like to see, if anyone cared.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Chairman said:

 

I think you may be reading too much into @Astralock's point. He was responding to the assertion that the Devs were making changes that no one asked for. This assertion appears to be unfounded. Astralock's point was that a majority of changes made have, in fact, been requested. I do not believe that this point was intended to go any further than refuting that initial assertion. It was not intended to insinuate that most people or a majority of people asked for the listed changes or that, by being requested, the changes are therefore good.

 

I could be wrong, but that is how I read it.

 

Exactly.  I never said that most people (or even many people), asked for those things.  I simply stated that people asked for them (meaning more than one person), and that's all true.  My point was that those changes or additions didn't come out of the ether like some people suggested.

 

As for the second point, people like a lot of things that aren't good.  Myself included.  I mained Force Field on live, and I occasionally liked to play Force Field on Homecoming.  That doesn't mean that it was good, until Page 5.  Many people also didn't realize how bad the damage was on Robotics, as it was disguised by its -regen.  And I'm not talking about damage compared to other ATs, I'm talking about compared to other henchmen power sets, like Beasts, Demons, and Thugs.  Robotics was exponentially weaker in comparison.  And the -regen only really matters while fighting AVs, monsters, and GMs, leaving Robotics terrible for 95% of content.

[MistressOhm]

22 minutes ago, Astralock said:

leaving Robotics terrible for 95% of content.

 

As someone who ran a Robotics/traps MM from 1 to 50 on Live, FROM City of Villains release, I can ... somewhat concur? 

 

I had more issues with controlling the bots, rewriting macros to assign modes, and learning how to not pull too much for the minions to handle. I never thought of the problem as "not enough DPS" though.  It was more along the lines of "control, control, you must learn control!" because bots getting curbstomped was usually due to them acting like hyper-enthusiastic puppies and stomping around through other spawns, and so forth.   

 

It was a long slog though.  

 

AFTER the Invention system had dropped, I started pushing IO sets into the build, specifically to increase hold duration, damage, and the like.  That's when the set actually 'bloomed' and I renamed the character from an everyday name to a supervillain nickname, "Dame Demolition".

 

EDIT:  I would also posit that -regen is NOT simply a DPS boost.  It's a mechanic to reduce how a target 'un-does' damage already applied.  Put practically, it means that, given a sustained rate of DPS, you can bring something down faster, BUT the primary assistance with -regen is for targets who normally "heal through" any and all damage that gets applied.   If you can slow down their heal rate, you have a better chance of reducing them to zero, and possibly defeating them in the first place. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by MistressOhm

[Draeth Darkstar]

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

First off, with about 20 Robot MMs fully T3'd or T4'd, and having soloed most of what is possible to solo as a Robot MM, I think I have a pretty good grasp on game mechanics.

 

If you actually read my comments both here and elsewhere, my point never was or is about the before or after, or the change to their DPS. My input has always entirely been about how many powers are available in a build. My objection was never about their DPS. But I will try to elaborate.

 

You have 24 power slots, and 64 enhancement slots available to put where you like.

You loose 5 power slots taking the 3 pets and 2 upgrade powers, which leaves 19.

You have 1 obligatory secondary power. That leaves 18.

Most builds take toughness and Weave, which requires boxing or kick. This leaves 15.

Now lets say you want group fly, that takes 3 power picks. This leaves 12.

Now lets say you want fold space, down to 9.

Now you need Leadership, most take Maneuvers, Tactics, and Vengance. Down to 6.

Now you want Haste. Down to 5.

 

This means you have 5 power slots to use, on your secondary AND personal attacks. And this isn't even getting into slotting.

 

My complaint isn't about DPS, and it never was. It is about the limited number of powers in a build. Robots already was pretty tight on slotting, with the lack of a mule power. But now if you want -regen you have to give up already too few power slots in order to include them, as well as the slotting for things like +ACC or END reduction.

 

MMs will never be top shelf DPS, and I don't think they were ever meant to be. Though some can certainly do good or even impressive DPS for a support class, my point is that it is mainly a support class, and this new remake limits the options they have to you know, support. 

 

If you want to be kiss-your-elbow top DPS, you might be better off playing something else.

 

You're either being deliberately obtuse, or you don't understand the mechanic, there's no third option here. All -regen does is contribute effective damage. If that qualifies as support, then contributing more actual damage than the -regen contributes effective damage is by your definition, better support. And again, this is true without the personal attacks, so your complaint about builds is wholly irrelevant. The fact that you have three more powers available to you that are actually worth taking to contribute yet-even-more-still-support-than-you-had-before is not a valid complaint.

[Glacier Peak]

I thought it would be a cool idea to have a community rep who runs content on Twitch every week with the Homecoming team and some players. There's been ad hoc and sporadic versions of that in the past, so I figure it's possible to do. 

[Doc_Scorpion]

Could we please not derail this otherwise interesting thread with arguments about bots?

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

 

You're either being deliberately obtuse, or you don't understand the mechanic, there's no third option here. All -regen does is contribute effective damage. If that qualifies as support, then contributing more actual damage than the -regen contributes effective damage is by your definition, better support. And again, this is true without the personal attacks, so your complaint about builds is wholly irrelevant. The fact that you have three more powers available to you that are actually worth taking to contribute yet-even-more-still-support-than-you-had-before is not a valid complaint.

 

I agree with @Doc_Scorpion and suggest we let the matter rest. I respectfully disagree with your point, and I can do so without making negative insinuations about your person in an attempt to degrade your argument. So, agree to disagree and let's move on.

[Major_Decoy]

7 hours ago, Neiska said:

You have 24 power slots, and 64 enhancement slots available to put where you like.

You lose 5 power slots taking the 3 pets and 2 upgrade powers, which leaves 19.

You have 1 obligatory secondary power. That leaves 18.

Most builds take toughness and Weave, which requires boxing or kick. This leaves 15.

Now lets say you want group fly, that takes 3 power picks. This leaves 12.

Now lets say you want fold space, down to 9.

Now you need Leadership, most take Maneuvers, Tactics, and Vengance. Down to 6.

Now you want Haste. Down to 5.

 

This means you have 5 power slots to use, on your secondary AND personal attacks. And this isn't even getting into slotting.

This framing seems really disingenuous, including Vengeance as necessary? That's just loading the deck. Vengeance is immanently skippable. I'd be more prone to believe assault. You're at least providing bonuses to your pets with assault.

 

But yeah, every build has to make power choices. I had to drop Oppressive Gloom from my Dark Tank because I decided I really wanted Whirlwind. I would take Leadership on every build if I could.

 

But this, you don't even say what your secondary powerset is and you already decided that it's better for your build to have Group Fly, Fold Space, Tough, and Weave, to say nothing of their prerequisites. That's not how builds are made.

[Parabola]

This is a fascinating thread with many good insights from the Devs/GM's. It will be a shame that this will get buried eventually and many may not read it even now given that the bulk of the interesting discussion hasn't actually been related to the topic itself. Might it be an idea for a Dev/GM to create a topic called something like 'Game development, testing and communication', copy all the relevant posts from this thread and then sticky it?

 

This is exactly the kind of communication between the Devs/GM's and the players that the community has been desperate for, thank you for taking the time.

[Neiska]

7 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

This framing seems really disingenuous, including Vengeance as necessary? That's just loading the deck. Vengeance is immanently skippable. I'd be more prone to believe assault. You're at least providing bonuses to your pets with assault.

 

But yeah, every build has to make power choices. I had to drop Oppressive Gloom from my Dark Tank because I decided I really wanted Whirlwind. I would take Leadership on every build if I could.

 

But this, you don't even say what your secondary powerset is and you already decided that it's better for your build to have Group Fly, Fold Space, Tough, and Weave, to say nothing of their prerequisites. That's not how builds are made.

 

I would elaborate but I would rather not derail the thread further. 

[_NOPE_]

13 hours ago, CR Americas Angel said:

4. Become a Dev
Obvious solution! If you want to impact the direction of the game you can apply to be a dev. Being able to code/use the various tools the Homecoming Dev Team have made/being familiar with Ourodev are essential. You can see some of the general criteria (and apply) at the link, below:

 

I was pinged into this thread, so I just got done reading it all. Not much else to say, but in response to the above?

 

 

There's been no further updates (that I've heard of at least) since then.

 

It was my understanding that the "Dev team" is essentially locked until the nebulous "Negotiations" are completed.

[Ruin Mage]

If that was true, We'd not have Cobalt, Caretaker, Booper, and I believe Player-1.

Also I believe Piecemeal was brought on in 2021 too, or 2022.

Bringing on devs is just probably a very long process.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Shadeknight

[_NOPE_]

You're making the assumption with that statemenrt those Devs are in fact new Devs, and not previosly existing Devs who just didn't have public personas until more recently.

 

We don't know either way, unless it's explicitly stated as such.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, _NOPE_ said:

You're making the assumption with that statement those Devs are in fact new Devs, and not previously existing Devs who just didn't have public personas until more recently.

 

This just made me question reality. What if all the HC devs and all the HC players are just manifestations of various psyches that Leandro has for himself, and we have become so caught up in our "existences" that have generated false memories going back decades to perpetuate our belief that we are individuals and not just various facets of Leandro who's psyche fractured because of CoH's sunset so much that his brain created the world we all live in and dance too.

[Ruin Mage]

Quite a few of those devs only appeared after that statement was made.

A good example of this would be Cobalt - who was around prior to being a Dev under the name Nayreia. They were brought on in 2021 if I tracked it right.

Booper only really appeared in the last year or two. Caretaker appeared this year. You don't really have anything besides a two year old statement to work off of when evidence shows otherwise.

As said, the on-boarding process is likely a lengthy thing.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

This just made me question reality. What if all the HC devs and all the HC players are just manifestations of various psyches that Leandro has for himself, and we have become so caught up in our "existences" that have generated false memories going back decades to perpetuate our belief that we are individuals and not just various facets of Leandro who's psyche fractured because of CoH's sunset so much that his brain created the world we all live in and dance too.

 

some guesses are better than others

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

 

This just made me question reality. What if all the HC devs and all the HC players are just manifestations of various psyches that Leandro has for himself, and we have become so caught up in our "existences" that have generated false memories going back decades to perpetuate our belief that we are individuals and not just various facets of Leandro who's psyche fractured because of CoH's sunset so much that his brain created the world we all live in and dance too.

So what you’re saying is . . . COH is a simulation 😂

[_NOPE_]

24 minutes ago, CR Americas Angel said:

Welcome back, PK! (No-one ever really leaves this place, do they? Lord knows I've tried so many times over the years...)

 

Key word in that message you screencapped was "currently". Plenty of brand new devs have been brought on since then.

Ah, well I guess I just didn't make the cut then. Jumped through many hoops though.

 

Ah well.

[SeraphimKensai]

4 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

So what you’re saying is . . . COH is a simulation 😂

Sort of but not really. Simulation theory typically pertains to a computer simulation with consciousness injected into it a la The Matrix. I'm thinking more like Leandro is Legion and just really fucked in the head and we're all parts of it.

 

Obviously I jest though.

[Luminara]

11 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Sort of but not really. Simulation theory typically pertains to a computer simulation with consciousness injected into it a la The Matrix. I'm thinking more like Leandro is Legion and just really fucked in the head and we're all parts of it.