Why isn't Brute Energy Melee Awesome?

[aethereal]

I think we all got excited when Energy Melee was simultaneously revamped and proliferated to Scrappers (and Stalkers were given some kind of AoE).  And of course Scrappers/Stalkers got the weird bells and whistles for crits -- but they don't get full crit damage on the two lynchpin Energy Melee attacks.  Brutes, of course, get full benefit of fury to Energy Melee.

 

Here are the numbers:

Energy Transfer

 

Scrapper:  285 damage normal, 365 damage crit

If 95% damage enhanced + 20% additional damage from Alpha or whatever, 612 damage normal, 784 damage crit

 

Brute:  190 damage base

If 95% damage enhanced + 20% additional damage from Alpha or whatever, + 160% damage from fury: 712 damage.

 

A Scrapper will have to crit 58% of the time to equal Brute damage with Energy Transfer.

 

Total Focus

 

Scrapper: 223 damage normal, 285 damage crit

If 95% damage enhanced + 20% additional damage from Alpha or whatever, 479 damage normal, 612 damage crit

 

Brute:  148 damage base

If 95% damage enhanced + 20% additional damage from Alpha or whatever, + 160% damage from fury:  555 damage

 

A Scrapper will have to crit 57% of the time to equal Brute damage with Total Focus

 

Now, okay, Scrappers will enjoy their usual benefits on the rest of the attack chain compared to Brutes, but TF and ET are the three best DPA attacks in Energy Melee (it goes fast ET, slow ET, then TF), and are central to the attack chain, and it feels like scrappers are pretty unlikely to equal Brute DPS with those attacks (you might get slightly north of 58% crit chance on one of your Energy Transfers (at best 90% chance of the ATO2 proc going off, so that's like 45% crit chance plus 16% base crit chance), but not on both of these attacks).

 

How does this all fall apart?  Obviously, you have to deal with damage from Energy Transfer, not "fairly likely to heal you instead of damage you," but that doesn't feel like a deal-breaker.  You don't get the chance of two fast ETs per chain, but it doesn't feel like scrappers build towards that anyway?

[Glacier Peak]

Brute less damage output, more damage resistant 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

Brute:  190 damage base

If 95% damage enhanced + 20% additional damage from Alpha or whatever, + 160% damage from fury: 712 damage.

 

hmm that seems a little low.

an example I have at 90% fury is 1,100+ & 1,300+ with Buildup.

 

4 procs

 

one proc

Edited December 19, 2022 by Troo

[aethereal]

49 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Brute less damage output, more damage resistant 

But the point is, here they seem to be on-par damage output.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Title: Why isn't Brute Energy Melee Awesome?

 

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

But the point is, here they seem to be on-par damage output.

 

When put that way it doesn't sound bad for brutes?

[aethereal]

1 minute ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Title: Why isn't Brute Energy Melee Awesome?

 

 

When put that way it doesn't sound bad for brutes?

 

Yes, but it's theory-crafting, and I assume that if someone was throwing down Scrapper-like numbers on pylons or whatever with Brute Energy Melee, I'd have heard about it.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Yes?

 

I'm super confused about the premise of the OP.

 

Do you think that Brutes should be on par with Scraps and Stalkers in ST damage using EM?

 

Per @Glacier Peak's post, that's not really part of the design theory (which I get right now is out the window).

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Yes?

 

I'm super confused about the premise of the OP.

 

Do you think that Brutes should be on par with Scraps and Stalkers in ST damage using EM?

 

I don't really care if they should be or shouldn't be, my question is -- are they?  If they aren't, why not?  Where does the extra damage creep in?

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 minutes ago, aethereal said:

If they aren't, why not? 

 

4 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Brute less damage output, more damage resistant 

 

 

I think this is pretty much the thread. Nothing's broken.

[aethereal]

Just now, twozerofoxtrot said:

I think this is pretty much the thread. Nothing's broken.

 

It's not a bug report.  I don't know why you're so confused about this, honestly.  I am saying, "it seems from a basic look at things like a brute's ST damage with Energy Melee should rival a Scrappers.  Does that actually bear out in play?  If so, why aren't we talking more about that?  If not, where does the reality diverge from the simple numbers?"

[biostem]

21 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I am saying, "it seems from a basic look at things like a brute's ST damage with Energy Melee should rival a Scrappers.  Does that actually bear out in play?

I think your premise is wrong.  I'm not sure why you think, one way or another, that more people should be talking about EM on brutes.  If I had to guess, though, I would say that brute EM is nothing spectacular, hence why you don't hear much discussion on the matter...

[aethereal]

Just now, biostem said:

I think your premise is wrong.  I'm not sure why you think, one way or another, that more people should be talking about EM on brutes.  If I had to guess, though, I would say that brute EM is nothing spectacular, hence why you don't hear much discussion on the matter...

Okay, great.  So why is it nothing spectacular?  It's perhaps the single-highest-ST damage set on Scrappers and Stalkers (maybe new Fiery Melee will give it a run for its money), and it seems like Brutes get versions of Energy Transfer and Total Focus that slightly surpass the damage that a Scrapper could get with a highly optimized crit rate.

 

Like, I'm looking for someone who says, "Oh, yeah, I tried to run Brute EM for a high-end Pylon time, and here's what you're missing..."

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Okay, great.  So why is it nothing spectacular?

Again, my *guess* is that the devs overcompensated out of fear of a high-fury brute dealing too much damage, and under-tuned the set.  I don't have any kind of pylon test that I myself ran, and my only high-level experience with EM is on a stalker...

Edited December 20, 2022 by biostem

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

Like, I'm looking for someone who says, "Oh, yeah, I tried to run Brute EM for a high-end Pylon time, and here's what you're missing..."

 

Then that's what you should lead with, rather than:

 

> Why isn't Brute Energy Melee Awesome?

 

Which implies that there is a specific design issue you have with Brute EM.

 

People are showing up to the discussion with their biases, which are primed by the topic discussion. It shapes how they recieve the data you're presenting. And in return you get confused replies.

 

Also.

 

People probably haven't done the work you're likely assuming they have.  

[aethereal]

Just now, biostem said:

Again, my *guess* is that the devs overcompensated out of fear of a high-fury brute dealing too much damage, and under-tuned the set.  I don't have any kind of pylon test that I myself ran, and my only high-level experience with EM is on a stalker...

 

I mean, they didn't.  Did you read the first post?

 

The base damage on the powers in brute Energy Melee is exactly where the scalars say it should be -- it doesn't get any special tuning to be worse than you would expect.  The weird tuning is on Scrappers/Stalkers, since Energy Transfer and Total Focus get much-less-than-full-strength crits (and, in return, some non-damage benefits for critting).  But Brute Fury works like normal on ET and TF, and the base damage is, as I said, right where it's supposed to be.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I mean, they didn't.

OK, then I'm wrong.  That's the funny thing about guessing - you can sometimes guess incorrectly.  Regardless, I'm sure there are some pylon test threads out there, or you could level up an EM brute and conduct your own...

[biostem]

This thread may be of some use to you.  Here's another that may be of some utility...

[Brutal Justice]

12 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

I don't really care if they should be or shouldn't be, my question is -- are they?  If they aren't, why not?  Where does the extra damage creep in?

It’s likely not from energy melee at all.  The divergence is likely from the epic snipes and gloom.  Pylon builds are all pretty cut and paste from set to set.  
 

If your scrapper doesn’t use a snipe, you’ll never approach the highest levels.  If you don’t slot -res procs, you’ll never approach the highest levels.  Energy melee is actually an outlier here by performing so well without -res procs. Even the new fire melee was designed to be able to use these.  
 

So without any testing or running any numbers, that’s where I would put my money.  Snipe vs gloom.  

[Gobbledygook]

32 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

It’s likely not from energy melee at all.  The divergence is likely from the epic snipes and gloom.  Pylon builds are all pretty cut and paste from set to set.  
 

If your scrapper doesn’t use a snipe, you’ll never approach the highest levels.  If you don’t slot -res procs, you’ll never approach the highest levels.  Energy melee is actually an outlier here by performing so well without -res procs. Even the new fire melee was designed to be able to use these.  
 

So without any testing or running any numbers, that’s where I would put my money.  Snipe vs gloom.  

 

Yeah, I need to revisit my Fm/Inv brute now that the changes have been live for awhile.

I don't think anything has actually changed much in regards to the build, though.

[Troo]

Energy Melee was "finely tuned" to be just above average except in short bursts.

Forcing the use of Total Focus or be stuck with long Energy Transfer reins in any sort of sustained super high damage per second.

 

If anyone wants details on making it perform on a Scrapper I take a peak here.

 

[Snarky]

15 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

 I am saying, "it seems from a basic look at things like a brute's ST damage with Energy Melee should rival a Scrappers. 

Here is the seed of what this thread is really about. Another excuse to nerf Brutes.  Like any of this games Dev teams needed an excuse.   Random issue update X; List of changes + nerfhammer Brute a bit. 

[lemming]

I'd have to screw around a bit more with it.  I do have a brute & a scrapper with EM, but the brute has Bio, and they have different slotting.  Might just have to play on the beta server to really test this out, but with my non-scientific test, both characters tore through a +1/x6 BNY mission.  (they could probably do +4/x8 though the brute isn't as heavily invested on defenses)

 

TF & ET are both hard hitting for starting and/or finishing singles, but they're just part of the overall package.

[nihilii]

Seconding the missing factors:
- epic snipe vs Gloom
- Gaussian BU (a bigger relative *and* net increase for the Scrapper)

- Critical Strikes. An EM scrapper attack rotation can be built for near guaranteed crits on several hits

- +DAM. Alpha (closer to +30% than +20% on T4), Assault Hybrid, Leadership Assault, set bonuses all giving more to the Scrapper

The numerous structural advantages of highend Scrappers (for the purpose of damage) outpace a couple powers not getting full crits, especially when given other advantages in return: heal vs damage on ET is significant, if you break it down in hp/s.

 

EM being a super high burst set, and the game generally favoring burst damage, Scrappers get a lot out of the set. Much more than Pylon numbers would tell... and that's with EM being near top of the charts there.

Nothing wrong with Brute EM, of course. It's just... it's a Brute.

I think Stone Melee Scrapper vs Brute could be a closer call and worth looking at. Scrappers get a reduced crit on Seismic Smash and nothing cool to make up for it. Even then I suspect the above structural advantages still end up pushing the Scrapper ahead.

[Redletter]

On 12/20/2022 at 10:09 AM, Snarky said:

Here is the seed of what this thread is really about. Another excuse to nerf Brutes.  Like any of this games Dev teams needed an excuse.   Random issue update X; List of changes + nerfhammer Brute a bit. 

I for one welcome the opportunity to share my favorite poem...

 

 

First they came for the Brutes
and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Brute.
Then they came for the Brutes
and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Brute.
Then they came for the Brutes
and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Brute.
Then they came for me—
and there was no Brute left
to farm for me

                                                                                                                                                                               - Berny Thorne

[Glacier Peak]

41 minutes ago, Redletter said:

I for one welcome the opportunity to share my favorite poem...

 

 

First they came for the Brutes
and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Brute.
Then they came for the Brutes
and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Brute.
Then they came for the Brutes
and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Brute.
Then they came for me—
and there was no Brute left
to farm for me

                                                                                                                                                                               - Berny Thorne

Is that the poem about the Holocaust? I swear I've read something similar before.