CoX Homecoming Proof of Concept: Increased scale cap for player characters

[Oneirohero]

During the last RP Event in Everlasting, people were asked what kind of things they'd like to see added/changed to the game. I was surprised to hear that least a few others wanted to be able to make bigger or smaller characters than we do on live, myself included. One even suggested '2ft to 12ft tall', I would have been happy to see 10ft myself but I was impressed that I wasn't alone. So after hyping myself up talking a friend I went on a mission to Icon 1.72 to create a proposal for the Homecoming devs reading this and to anybody else who supports the idea to increase the server-enforced restrictions to player costume scales to make this a reality.

 

I created an Imgur gallery with numerous textboxes to go through the reasoning and logic behind allowing this change and why the infrequent issues that come with it aren't as bad as it seems from a glance. There's two parts of the proposal, one that goes over the size difference compared with mobs and the second part that covers the worst case scenarios of maps, to read it all you have to go to this link:

 

https://imgur.com/a/prx4pl7

 

As a footnote: I know I'm missing those tiny tunnels that criss-cross some Rikti underground maps however I wasn't able to find the internal mapname for such a place (honestly, there's dozens of the same exact maps, what the...?). But one might argue it will be the same as the Vanguard mini-tunnels as described in the gallery itself.

 

I'd want to forward this proposal to the Homecoming team themselves but I don't know how, so I'm hoping by posting it here at least, the community can also weigh in on their thoughts and compromises, if any.

[TfStormcry]

I love making short characters based on mythological/fantasy races, such as goblins, gnomes, halflings, and various types of fae. So I'd be totally down for this.

[HelenCarnate]

Height could be an issue as you could not fit in some dorways if you were 12 feet tall but no issue with a 2 foot tall character.

[Reiska]

As pointed out in the proposal, doorways in CoH don't actually have vertical collision.

[HelenCarnate]

Also caves already cause odd camera issues with tall characters.  Adding another several feet of height would cause even more issues.

[Black Zot]

Also caves already cause odd camera issues with tall characters.  Adding another several feet of height would cause even more issues.

 

Caves are badly designed in general and could use a complete overhaul.

[HelenCarnate]

Oh I agree. I would love to be able to run around 10 feet tall in a cave but as it is even now I  have to switch costumes to a smaller size on my max height characters when I get in a cave map.

[Zumberge]

This is an interesting proposal and it's helpful that you provided examples and did testing.

 

This would open up quite a few options regarding design, but the one thing that concerns me is how having players be two feet tall would affect PvP.  Admittedly, I don't know if having the smallest character possible is part of the current meta; would anyone from Indomitable be able to chime in on this?

[Oneirohero]

Also caves already cause odd camera issues with tall characters.  Adding another several feet of height would cause even more issues.

From my testing, the camera issues for 'Larger hero' are not any more exaggerated than other tall characters in general. Like in the Vanguard passageway example, the camera has collision at all times and in the very few instances where the character's head and shoulders clip through the world, the camera snaps into position so that you can always see.

 

In fact, even if you were a normal sized character, the camera will still snap into the room you're in if you pass through a single-doorway and the line between your sight and your characters head is not met. Angling the camera low in cramped cave maps often gets you the best view without bumping. Going into first person camera will skate across the ceiling.

[SwitchFade]

The issue with larger characters that was discussed by the original devs on live was that they would not fit inside buildings. Now, if something has changed, this may be possible.

 

This was also why it was problematic to implement dramatically larger toons. I believe a Keldian Dwarf is about as big as a toon can be.

[kelly Rocket]

The issue with larger characters that was discussed by the original devs on live was that they would not fit inside buildings. Now, if something has changed, this may be possible.

 

This was also why it was problematic to implement dramatically larger toons. I believe a Keldian Dwarf is about as big as a toon can be.

The OP literally linked a gallery of images showing that the larger characters he was proposing do fit inside the existing building maps, albeit with some clipping issues for very small doors.

[Oneirohero]

The issue with larger characters that was discussed by the original devs on live was that they would not fit inside buildings. Now, if something has changed, this may be possible.

 

This was also why it was problematic to implement dramatically larger toons. I believe a Keldian Dwarf is about as big as a toon can be.

I've proved without a doubt that the logic of 'would not fit in buildings' is fallacious. Several types of mobs including Lost Mutates, CoT Behemoths, Firbolg and Warworks/ACUs can fit inside indoor maps without major clipping. Giving a player character the ability to appear as large as them works fine in the majority of maps, even the low-headroom ones. A snug fit, but a fit nevertheless.

 

If we want to talk about what has changed, the change is the game is no longer under the old dev team's supervision. That doesn't mean the quality of the experience should be lowered or that the standards should be tossed to the wind, but a more compelling reason than 'That's how it's always been' is required to convince me this is a bad idea. Though it will have to be something from the Homecoming team who understandably has a more intimate relationship with how the servers work and how they wish to implement such a feature.

 

If anything, if they do not or cannot change the way sliders work in the character creator. They can simply raise the min and max scale caps set by the server. That way manual costume editing and loading can be performed by advanced users. The trick is no more complicated than the skill required to write macros and binds except you have to edit plain-text files outside the game to do so. Then the min and max can be as it is currently live, but those that wish to take the option to have extra large or extra small can do so. In a way, it prevents inexperienced users from taking forms they are not familiar with.

[BeeVee]

Perhaps implementing a camera slider function that allows one to set a camera position on the height axis might make this a bit less of a ballache to do? How feasible would that be?

[Rhinoxx]

Yes please :)

Also, kudos for a well-presented and argued point - that is very well done.

[SwitchFade]

To the OP, I'm not taking a position either way, and I did inspect your proof of concept, which does prove the point both ways...

 

It can theoretically be done

 

There's issues with clipping

 

Which is why I stated that this was an issue on live, and one reason it was difficult to implement.

 

Keep in mind I'm not saying I disagree, I was merely providing information. And, bare in mind that clipping is clipping, and behemoths already do this pretty dramatically.

 

As I said, Keldian dwarfs are just about the upper limit, and I proposed this because they are larger than all other AT's, but the keld forms are costumes, so it may be different.

 

Also, in thinking, there may be more issues with work needing to be done for costumes. I recall that much work was done over the years when costume pieces were added, to make them work on different bodies.

 

I'd love to make larger or smaller toons, but if the Dev time needed to do this is lengthy, I would question if the priority should be low.

[Oneirohero]

To the OP, I'm not taking a position either way, and I did inspect your proof of concept, which does prove the point both ways...

 

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Keep in mind I'm not saying I disagree, I was merely providing information. And, bare in mind that clipping is clipping, and behemoths already do this pretty dramatically.

 

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I'd love to make larger or smaller toons, but if the Dev time needed to do this is lengthy, I would question if the priority should be low.

Understandably I had to show both points because I knew it would be pointed out eventually, plus any serious suggestion requires criticism, revision and compromise to create the ideal solution. All solutions except 'No' of course.

 

My theory is that the means to make this feature possible is strictly server-side settings. The reason being that I was able to produce these concept images via Icon 1.72 and had no problems making them as big or as small as I wanted (although anything below -89 scale causes the character disappear, anything way over 85 starts dwarfing most mobs and absolutely begins to clip on all other maps very badly). Icon does not use a server in the slightest; doors don't work, you can't use powers and map travel and navigation is only possible through internal mapnames and some uses of noclip (shutters, Cave wooden doors...etc). Going beyond the normal limits on live produces a 'invalid scales' error with a generic character in place of your own. Basically, the server is saying no, not the game code/libraries.

 

If it really is just a server setting: then it would require minimal time to change the scale min and scale max setting, no more than trying to look up a couple of specific parameters and changing their values (Specifically: MaxScale to 85 and MinScale to -60 or -85). What would require more work is to alter the character creator so that the new max and min scale reflects in the 'Height' slider, but it is not required if you edit a costume file externally and load that into a new character or surgeon-tailor in game. In which case I advocate allowing advanced users to take advantage of the extended scale limits while protecting new/normal/unwilling users until they're ready for a proper implementation (if at all). CoX is a helpful community, if one wished to take advantage and wanted to know how to do it, we'd tell them!

 

Strangely enough, no matter how large you make a character on the char-creator screen, they will appear '8ft', especially when freshly loaded. It's only when the costume is confirmed that the effect becomes immediate in the game world.

 

[capsmackdown]

If a different 'extra tall' model is made, perhaps they can be given permanent but nerfed sort of beast run. This may (haven't tried it) effectively allow them to get through most lower areas, then stand at full height when not moving. Just a possible way it won't destroy immersion to see peoples heads passing through solid objects.

[Castrum]

The clipping will be goofy and the tiny toons will be a quick PvP exploit for hitboxes or just simply LoS/seeing them in the first place. Can't say I agree with this.

[Oneirohero]

The clipping will be goofy and the tiny toons will be a quick PvP exploit for hitboxes or just simply LoS/seeing them in the first place. Can't say I agree with this.

Okay! This is actually a compelling argument against the proposal, as I don't want to suggest something that can cause things to become worse on the PvP side of things even though it is not my focus. However I can still see some issues with this logic with the following:

 

If people were creating tiny characters for the sole purpose of exploiting it in PvP; why don't we currently see people making the smallest toons possible in competitive? Is PvP full of 4ft tall male/female toons to minimise their potential hitboxes? We have to remember that CoX is a tab-targeting based game, not an FPS, character size does not matter, even at the size of a Redcap minion. The only thing that makes it harder to target someone is when placate and taunt comes into play; in which case you can't really 'click' people to get around that either. Much like how I explained in the image gallery that tiny team-mates can simply be clicked on in the team menu or with proper game bind to cycle through or pick specific targets there's also the same function to do for enemies.

 

Clicking moving targets of people in non-PvP zones feels impossible the best of times without them being super tiny, I admit. But enemies, as such in a PvP environment, are probably the easiest thing to target in this game; between target-nearest, target-farthest and target-next/back you can already have the buttons to lock onto your targets easily and it doesn't require the mouse. Clicking targets is probably the slowest action you can take, even if you were fighting a 12ft tall toon!

 

And to touch upon the 'LoS issues', the only way I could see this happening is if they hide behind a short wall, but much like the homing boulders of old, the game's enforced 'no minimal FX' rule in PvP proves they can't stay hidden for long as you'll see them shooting through it. And to top it all, the third-person nature of the camera means you can already peek around corners and over walls anyway, this is not a new kind of exploit. And I figure even if PvPers had to be locked into first person, the fact the camera does scale down with the user means they'd be worse off, being unable to see over low walls that a normal character could.

 

As it stands, the only remaining point is the clipping might look goofy. And that's fair enough.

 

[leese]

I think chances are anyone who really wants to make a very large character is probably going to live with clipping, and characters being too small to PvP with is a problem for the viewer, not the creator. With that in mind, it should be possible to put in an option to make seeing super-large or super-small characters optional.

 

When enabled, when displaying another player's character, it could clamp the character's height to within the current acceptable values.

 

The player who owns the small or large character would see their character as designed, as would anyone without the option enabled, but anyone who enabled it wouldn't have to see other players clipping or characters too small for PvP.

[Oneirohero]

I think chances are anyone who really wants to make a very large character is probably going to live with clipping, and characters being too small to PvP with is a problem for the viewer, not the creator. With that in mind, it should be possible to put in an option to make seeing super-large or super-small characters optional.

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The player who owns the small or large character would see their character as designed, as would anyone without the option enabled, but anyone who enabled it wouldn't have to see other players clipping or characters too small for PvP.

I'm okay with the option for players to see other characters differently, although such a feature would require more coding work for the HC team than a couple of server settings.

 

Although if people want to turn off the ability to see giant/tiny characters, what about auras they don't like? Or other intrusive visual costume effects? There's merit in an option that may default power customisation colours to their normal ones if you prefer not to be lit up like a christmas tree on fire. Even more applicable in PvP which enforces a 'No No-FX' mechanic.

 

Granted, the other person would never know you turned off their costume features, no harm done right? I'm on board with the size toggle on the condition it's a change to your personal cognition rather than externally applying to others. If it allows everyone to be happy then so be it!

[JudgementDave]

Nothing against it thematically, but practically (for players).

 

Judgement Dave was my original character on CoH, and I tried to do him as close to me as possible, so he way about 6' tall.

 

Months later, virtually all my new alts were made at or near max height because JD was often lost amongst the teams full of oversized characters, and that sometimes made it awkward to play (even if it was just feeling awkward and feeling like I was losing track of my toon). If you suddenly upped the cap to 12', it could shift that effect so that even 8' characters get lost amongst the crowd of giants.

 

I've often wondered if the number of tall characters is because others feel the same.

 

If it was implemented, I'd like the option to turn off the super-large and mini characters for my own display (as suggested above).

 

[blayzemaster]

Really well argued and lots of proof. I'd love to see something like this so I can really pump up my Incarnate Form size.

 

[kelly Rocket]

Personally I don't care about clipping issues as long as you can actually get through all the doors. Let people clip if they want to.

[Vanden]

I just don't see the point. We can already be really big and really small. Why do we need to be able to be bigger or smaller? It would never be enough to satisfy everyone, someone would always want to go beyond whatever bounds are set.