Grandpa, tell me about the old days...

[ihatethewind]

I started at launch, some of my particular highlights (I'm sure some have been mentioned, I didn't have time to read the whole thread)

 

• Rag doll animation system was different, you could knockdown a mob again in the middle of its falling down animation, ice slick basically made popcorn out of groups and was infinitely more safe than it is now because they couldn't take a pot shot at you when they stood up before falling over again
• Lvl 40 level cap, but who cared because getting xp was a chooooooore
• No ED! but honestly, for as much of an uproar as it caused the IO system that came later I am a fan of.
• There was no minimum slow/recharge floor, so you could slow the mobs down so much they just ran in place forever and none of their powers ever recharged while you wailed on them with impunity
• BUUUUUURN
• AOE Holds were soooo much more powerful, people used to skip the single target ones because the AOEs recharged so fast (plus everyone had perma hasten)
• SS jousting, it didn't suppress in combat
• Making a female character with the bare chest torso was possible lol.  I reported it when I figured out how to do it and they patched it out very quickly (never got my bughunter badge though, still salty about that one)
• The game was more about the journey, we spent soooo long leveling our characters it was a completely different feel.
• All the hullabaloo about the suit from marvel and us not being able to make their characters, good times heh.  I think still to this day my favorite Hulk tribute I saw was a guy named Le Hulk.  It was just like regular hulk, but with a beret and a mustache 🙂 
• If you wanted to change your costume as a lowbie you had to sneak up the west side of steel canyon to make it to the tailor, it was very dangerous
• Were fire imps even level in the way back before times?  I can't remember

Its weird to think of this game being in my life for so long, but I'm really thankful its been there for me.

Edited March 7, 2023 by ihatethewind

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, ihatethewind said:

If you wanted to change your costume as a lowbie you had to sneak up the west side of steel canyon to make it to the tailor, it was very dangerous

This was the route that people took who hadn't learned the trick of going to Kings Row and running to the tunnel to Independence Port, then making the short run from there to the IP tailor. The run across KR was much lower risk, and the short section in IP was usually clear.

[Zect]

I seem to remember when the strat for hamidon involved paradropping regiments of PA's into the goo. Now you know why electrolytic damage kills PA, one of very few things in the game that can do so.

 

I also remember that when croatoa released, the ability for NPC's to fight each other (like the war in the vale) was hailed as some revolutionary new technology. Prior to this, enemies "fighting" only emoted at each other.

 

I have very few memories of those days because the game just wasn't that good and I correspondingly played very little. Those memories I do have aren't too positive: little content, little loot, little variety in builds (there was just one objectively correct way to slot your attacks), etc.

 

People in those days were a lot more likely to come with preconceptions from other MMO's, expect holy trinity gameplay, and then not know what to do with sets like TA (and later on, cold) that literally had no heal. While not every team was like this, there were certainly groups that wanted only an empath, or a stone tank (and those stone tanks wanted a pet kin), etc. As an example of how some people back then thought, there is a godawful empath fender guide on the cesspit known as gamefaqs, that recommends taking every power from emp/ and the medicine pool, and skipping the entire 2ndary. These days, people are generally more knowledgable about the game. Then again, given some of the builds I've seen, I suspect people haven't really changed, just moved on to different mistakes.

 

I saw ED coming from a mile away, and for all that the munchkins hated him for it, Jack deserves respect for pushing through a change that was absolutely necessary. Where Jack really failed was as a manager and communicator, as always. You don't allow multiple issues to go by before pushing out such a nerf together with your first expac, let the bad press overshadow the launch, and also give the nerf an eminently mockable name such as "ED". ED should not have come in i6. It should've been nipped in beta, or in i1, at the very latest (and the IO system should have come much earlier). The fact it was not speaks to a severe lack of balance testing, gross incompetence, and a complete failure to manage player expectations.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Zect

[Crysis]

8 hours ago, Zect said:

I seem to remember when the strat for hamidon involved paradropping regiments of PA's into the goo. Now you know why electrolytic damage kills PA, one of very few things in the game that can do so.

 

I also remember that when croatoa released, the ability for NPC's to fight each other (like the war in the vale) was hailed as some revolutionary new technology. Prior to this, enemies "fighting" only emoted at each other.

 

I have very few memories of those days because the game just wasn't that good and I correspondingly played very little. Those memories I do have aren't too positive: little content, little loot, little variety in builds (there was just one objectively correct way to slot your attacks), etc.

 

People in those days were a lot more likely to come with preconceptions from other MMO's, expect holy trinity gameplay, and then not know what to do with sets like TA (and later on, cold) that literally had no heal. While not every team was like this, there were certainly groups that wanted only an empath, or a stone tank (and those stone tanks wanted a pet kin), etc. As an example of how some people back then thought, there is a godawful empath fender guide on the cesspit known as gamefaqs, that recommends taking every power from emp/ and the medicine pool, and skipping the entire 2ndary. These days, people are generally more knowledgable about the game. Then again, given some of the builds I've seen, I suspect people haven't really changed, just moved on to different mistakes.

 

I saw ED coming from a mile away, and for all that the munchkins hated him for it, Jack deserves respect for pushing through a change that was absolutely necessary. Where Jack really failed was as a manager and communicator, as always. You don't allow multiple issues to go by before pushing out such a nerf together with your first expac, let the bad press overshadow the launch, and also give the nerf an eminently mockable name such as "ED". ED should not have come in i6. It should've been nipped in beta, or in i1, at the very latest (and the IO system should have come much earlier). The fact it was not speaks to a severe lack of balance testing, gross incompetence, and a complete failure to manage player expectations.

 

I was originally a player on a number of “Hami superteams” that tried all sorts of crazy things to attempt to beat Hamidon -before- it was a widely-beatable zone event.

 

Some that I recall:

 

1) All blasters with six-slotted snipes for Range.  

2) All Regen-scrappers with a backup cadre of Empathy defenders flying around to juice up any Regen players who were taking too much aggro.  It may have actually been this model that, while it failed, ended up being one of the unlocks to defeating Hami as a Regen Scrapper with Taunt would just hover-taunt Hami while the rest of the league took it out.

3) At one point I was part of a hybrid tanker/defender/blaster league where the Defenders would use Group Fly for all but the Blasters, who remained at range.

 

It’s sort of comical looking back on it today, but speed-TF’s and speed-Hami’s weren’t really a thing at one point.  The common “how-to” guides weren’t really known and in fact the few SG’s that had claimed to defeat Hami kept it pretty secret for awhile and the Dev team was making active changes to anything that they felt ‘cheesed’ their precious end-game raid content.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Crysis said:

that tried all sorts of crazy things to attempt to beat Hamidon

The one I recall hearing about after the fact was the two-minute Hami raid. It exploited a quirk in the "Find source of Freaks' weapons" mission that gave the Nemesis Staff temp power to the character that opened the appropriate crate, rather than being awarded to the mission holder on completion. So an assembly line of 'enter mission, find crate for temp power, exit, reset' was run until there were enough people with the Nemesis Staff temp power -- and this was back when it was AoE and recharged faster -- to fill the Hive, and they just ran in and blew Hami down with a hail of NemStaff fire.

[ebondefender]

I think I started playing CoH mid-2005 ish. I helped beta test CoV, so I was overjoyed when I heard Homecoming was a thing. Glad to be here. 🙂 I still have my old XP tower I originally played the game on, PhysX card and all.

[UltraAlt]

On 2/17/2023 at 2:47 PM, vibal said:

Regen sucked.

 

My second 50 was a spines/regen scrapper. 

 

On 2/17/2023 at 2:47 PM, vibal said:

For the folks lamenting ED: every attack had the same recommended slotting - 1 accuracy, 5 damage. Playing a device blaster? 6 damage then.

 

I have always run 2 accuracy enhances in all attack powers. It has always been more import to me to hit versus of having the chance for a higher damage spike less often.

 

Both being said, I can understand your point of view.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 2:47 PM, vibal said:

IO's brought a lot of numeric increases and rewarded time investment, but they failed to really do what they should've.

 

They smoothed the curve between the 5-level-spaced enhances. IOs didn't turn red and could be useful at the same output level until you replaced them - that is to say, they never turned red.

Plus they were crafting and gave the game an economy that players could gain influence through using (as the auction house came out at the same time).

 

I think that was the purpose and it was a success on both fronts.

 

The IO systems (the generic IOs) were the turning point in the game for me. It meant that my softies could generate influence in the auction house so that they could actually slot enhancements in all their slots. Before the IO system and the Auction house was released, I had characters that had so little influence that they didn't have enough influence to even by enough training enhances to fill their slots, because XP and influence were based on damage done. It didn't make any difference how helpful you were keeping your team on their feet or how much you debuffed  the enemies, the XP and influence was based on damaged done, so non-damaged based characters were pretty much just there to help the damage dealers get xp and influence.

 

Before the sunset, the IO and the Auction House had a greater impact on City of Heroes to me than the IO enhancement sets.

[JasperStone]

On 2/24/2023 at 1:59 PM, ZemX said:

 

I seem to recall temp jetpacks were always possible to get some way or another, weren't they?  Just wasn't as easy as buying one.

I thought there was always a vendor in the Shar offering a jetpack.

Or was that added in 2008?

[Uun]

1 hour ago, JasperStone said:

I thought there was always a vendor in the Shar offering a jetpack.

Or was that added in 2008?

Added in I13 https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-12-02#NPCs_and_City_Zones

[Solarverse]

Lots of opinions. So I'll stick to facts.

In the beginning, all classes were essential. All classes felt useful and even needed. It didn't matter which class you played, your role was appreciated and even asked for specifically in LFG. Healers were treated like Gods and Goddesses in those days and were VERY appreciated. There was no contest to see who could do the most damage, all classes had a role to play. The only classes who were concerned with damage output was Blasters and Scrappers. There was no competition between Brutes and Tanks because well, Brutes didn't exist and when they were introduced, they were Red Side only, so even then, there was no issues between Brutes and Tanks, or Blasters and Defenders and Corruptors. Debt was not some minor inconvenience, Debt was a real reason to work together as a team and NOT to go off on your own while the rest of your team stuck together. Playing in this way would teach you very quickly that sticking with the team and playing as a team was essential to survival. Blasters who ran ahead of the Tank to pretend to be Tanks paid a heavy price for it and learned very quickly to wait until the Tank had the aggro before unleashing their hell on the NPCs.

I can go on for days, but IMO, the early days of this game was far superior to the game we have today. It was challenging, fun and promoted a team structure. I would give ANYTHING to go back in time and play this game from Issue 1 all over again and escape the hell COH has become today.

Incoming thumbs down in 3...2...1...

 

 

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Lots of opinions. So I'll stick to facts.

Well if we're sticking to facts...

 

CoH today is objectively better than older CoH. The mindset support players had preshutdown was pathetic, entitled, and downright dumb as hell. I say this having 25+ 50 trollers and defenders. Made me embarrassed to even have one at 50. Today? You wanna be a star go do HM. Support is practically essential there. And the blasters were literally trash tier as an AT until the issue where they redid defiance, and even then they went from trash to somewhat playable. Sustains put them into solid tier, and HC really brought them into god tier. Tanks back then wanted the team to wait for them to pull the entire map while the rest of the team played dominos or cards in the back. Wow, What riveting gameplay

 

CoH preshutdown had its charm, but that shit was terrible. And I say it having played from i5 till the end. Team play now may seem like zerg meta, but considering the alternative is wait for some meathead tank to pull the entire map while a Fire Blaster killed everything? No son, THIS is the best CoH will ever be. And THAT's an objective fact.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

 Tanks back then wanted the team to wait for them to pull the entire map while the rest of the team played dominos or cards in the back. Wow, What riveting gameplay

 

Some Tanks did play this way. From my experience, they were far and few in between. Sure, I ran across Tanks like this from time to time, but the majority of Tanks I had teamed with were team players. You have bad apples no matter how the game's mechanics are.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Tanks back then wanted the team to wait for them to pull the entire map while the rest of the team played dominos or cards in the back

And tanks don't do that any more, mostly because the Controller(s), Defender(s), Corrupter(s), and Dominator(s) on the team fling out their AoE immobilize or hold the instant a new spawn is encountered, at which point there's diddly and/or squat the tank can do to group up the scattered mobs for AoEs from the rest of the team.

Edited March 11, 2023 by srmalloy

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

at which point there's diddly and/or squat the tank can do to group up the scattered mobs

 

You could [Fold Space]  . . .

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

You could [Fold Space]  . . .

 

Unless TP is your favorite Travel power, Fold Space is not always a power somebody wants to pick up. I mean, you have to take two other TP powers to get it...and to me, that's a lot. Just to pick up a power that groups up mobs. Back in the day, people actually waited until you grouped them up. Now we need a power to do this? On every single Tank we make? Seems a bit much to expect IMO.

[Astralock]

40 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Unless TP is your favorite Travel power, Fold Space is not always a power somebody wants to pick up. I mean, you have to take two other TP powers to get it...and to me, that's a lot. Just to pick up a power that groups up mobs. Back in the day, people actually waited until you grouped them up. Now we need a power to do this? On every single Tank we make? Seems a bit much to expect IMO.

 

Not to mention that way too many are Fold Space happy, even when it's detrimental.  "Fold Space that technician in the TPN building to all of the other mobs?  Don't mind if I do!"

[MoonSheep]

16 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I can go on for days, but IMO, the early days of this game was far superior to the game we have today. It was challenging, fun and promoted a team structure. I would give ANYTHING to go back in time and play this game from Issue 1 all over again and escape the hell COH has become today.

 

i agree with your views completely. the game thesedays has transformed into a sandbox Sims pick-up-and-play rather than an MMORPG with all the changes over the years. i still play it as it’s nice nostalgia but it doesn’t make much sense as a game and is not overly rewarding to play

 

having thought about the reason why CoH feels different a lot, my conclusion is that the IO system fundamentally broke the game and should have never been introduced. squishies can essentially be perma elude with set bonuses yet the difficulty of enemies wasn’t increased to compensate

 

any AT is every AT and your contribution in a team* is meaningless 

 

*group of unrelated players who happen to be in the same mission together

[tidge]

I don't remember the "launch" days as being better than today (or even very good, frankly) at driving "team balance among ATs". It was much more like "oh yeah, that's the powerset that will help" and not "What we need is (any) _____". There were plenty of character concepts that were not as well-loved if they picked the "wrong" primary/secondary. IMO the Homecoming team has done an excellent job caretaking the "City of", as it is much easier to make a character of any concept into one that can contribute to teams and/or not struggle through solo content. The only thing these days working against team membership is not using the /invite command.

 

Some less than pleasant memories: Fiery Aura Tankers didn't need teams to trivially earn XP. Scrappers could be built to be effective as Tankers, plus didn't struggle to clear maps. We have been throwing a lot of shade at early-game Tankers for team-chatting "wait for me to gather the map", but lets not forget the Radiation Emission Defender spam "Gather for AM" and "Kill my target LAST". Invulnerable and Stone Tanks to enemy mobs: "I'll just stay here (rooted, or behind this curb) while you scamper about."

 

Tankers had a few elements of old-school glory but outside of those they were not really needed for 98% of content. Issue 1's addition of Peregrine Island allowed summoning of HUGE amounts of Rikti Monkeys (as well as Giant Monsters) to Portal Corp. Jerk move or pure awesome? Dev's didn't like it. Issue 6's PvP demonstrated how annoying certain Tanker builds could be to other players, yet if the Tanker couldn't be defeat there was no way it was going to defeat anyone else (except maybe via Stun).

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

 IMO the Homecoming team has done an excellent job caretaking the "City of", as it is much easier to make a character of any concept into one that can contribute to teams and/or not struggle through solo content.

 

absolutely. they have built and maintained a great community and added to the game in a balanced fashion / made the less balanced parts optional

[SteelRat70]

Joined in i6, rolled an en / en blaster called "Powerblast Man", ran through the tutorial and thought, "I'm not really sure I like this".  After a number of alts, I settled on a Claws / Regen scrapper who was my first 50.  By then I'd joined an SG on Defiant called "Amazon Stars" and I remember having a 50 ding party with them in Pocket D.  It'd probably taken about 3 months to get there and it felt like a real achievement.  I played fairly solidly right up until shutdown, and stayed up right up until that final Map server disconnect.

 

Fondest memories were the Taxibots in the Hollows and how valuable that was in learning mob group aggro ranges.  I remember learning that a "mob" wasn't a group of enemy NPCs, but a single enemy entity and was short for "mobile object".  I remember when blasters, controllers and defenders were squishies.  I remember when people had to play together as a team, when a blaster with a snipe would attempt to pull mobs to thin the numbers to make things less of a wipe fest.

I also remember the incredible way that we stood up for our game and tried to prevent it from being shut down by an enemy that we couldn't defeat.  By then, we'd got IOs, AE and the DFB trial, which (at least in my opinion) contributed more to its death than NCSoft ever did.

Todays game has lost some of its soul with an LFG channel that seems to be full of nothing but farm and DFB requests.  I do also agree with the "8 solo players who are all on the same map" point of view too.  That said, I do have a very prolific creative streak and the 2023 game allows me to exercise that in a far, far more complete way than I ever would have been able to in live.  I don't just create single characters any more, but groups of them that share a common theme, or in one case the entire journey of a single one across different stages represented by different power combos.

Do I miss the old game?  Yes.  Am I enjoying the changes and the 2023 version? Yes.. but for entirely different reasons.

[SteelRat70]

Oh.. and I preferred old defiance on blasters.  Some very fond memories of just about surviving a wipe and managing to clear agg'd mobs with a huge damage buff due to only having a sliver of health.  Seat of your pants, nail biting glass cannon at its very, very best.  Is Defiance 2.0 easier to play? Yes.  Does it lend itself to that sort of incredibly satisfying, bordering on truly heroic scenario that could come straight out of the pages of your favourite comic?  If it does, I've not come across it yet - or at least not in a way that was anywhere near as memorable.