Tankiest Tanks?

[siran]

In response to Maximus Primes comment...

 

I think SR is a three trick pony, not a one trick pony

* It never suffers from cascading defence loss. Not ever. (well maybe at level 10...) And if you don't think that's a trick consider what it's like being fire tanker facing the Rularuu. Shield on the other hand needs ageless (in my experience) to survive incarnate content

* It dodges everything except a tiny tiny tiny part of the game (+100% attacks/auto attacks/pure psi)

* It has 90% resists to everything by the time the hit points drop to 1/2../1/3 depending on how you build it.... but actually in play this practically never happens. I only get it in very serious content. Going through the Dark Astoria line ...didn't happen once. Going through DrQ... happens a bit because those Rularuu...they are scary.. but once the resists are there... the hitpoints stop dropping

 

You can also add maybe 'doesn't need ageless/doesn't need barrier'. Other tankers that I have all have to get one of those two for hard content. SR... nope... 

 

Oh and it costs almost nothing to build it. So it can do huge damage/have other cool things. And it has a small recharge bonus thrown in as a free gift... which other people rate highly but for me is a bit 'meh'. 

 

So while your friend might be veng bait... I think I can safely say that my SR tank isn't vengbait. I don't think even the first debt badge has been earned.  I did get defeated once during tinplex...I blame lag 🙂  

 

Shield... it's a great set. Love it. My only issue with it is that it is really expensive to get nearly as safe as a casually built  SR and can't do the same proc glory... And all my shield tankers have debt badges... the journey to 50/exemplaring isn't anywhere as friendly as for a SR

 

 

[ninja surprise]

4 hours ago, siran said:

Oh and it costs almost nothing to build it. So it can do huge damage/have other cool things. And it has a small recharge bonus thrown in as a free gift... which other people rate highly but for me is a bit 'meh'. 

 

 

It has +rech, +speed, status protection that doesn't drop when you run out of endurance and toggledrop, DDR, slow resist...

If you take the T9 it's like a combo of speed boost + Accelerate Metabolism + a full set of soft-capped forcefields. So if you do run out of endurance and toggledrop, you can hit Elude, flip out and kill everything - without turning on any other powers - until the crash hits.

 

The one trick about SR is that you turn on three toggles and then attack non-stop until everything else is dead or you are. Opposite of Bio where you turn on half a dozen toggles and also juggle three heals in between attacks to stay alive.

 

Yesterday I lead a time on Crimson's arc at 50+4.  I only got sapped once in the whole arc but had a blue and a purple so stayed alive until I could toggle up again. Didn't die at all, but the other tank and Brute died a couple times after getting sapped and toggledropped. The Brute got stunned and died a few times. I don't remember what his armor was though.

 

Then I switched to my Savage/Bio Scrapper, joined a TinPex, and died a couple times while fighting Clocks in the first mission because I forgot to click the heals/absorbs after being SR for so long 😪 That's a realy fun combo though!

[ninja surprise]

10 hours ago, StriderIV said:

Oh no worries dude, I just wasn’t sure! I haven’t rolled an SR yet, will have to give it a shot in the near future!

 

If you do SR/Dark Melee that's a great combo with DM giving you the clickies (endurance/heal) the armor doesn't!

[JayboH]

On 6/12/2021 at 3:36 AM, MaximusPrime said:

 

SR is a mediocre Defensive set.  Its a one trick pony, just Defense with highest DDR.  Because SR characters were always eating dirt they added in scaling resist which buffs your resistance to damage inversely to your health.  It works ok but SR will still take more dirt naps than more robust sets like Shield, Invuln, etc.  

 

I have a buddy who is a SR worshipper, he has SR Tanks, scrappers, stalkers, etc.  I don't mind really because it is nice to have veng bait on the team sometimes.

I told you I could main tank in incarnate trials with my SR/Ice (def is above incarnate softcap of course.)  Perhaps your buddy's build needs help.

[Gobbledigook]

@siran  Shield does not need Ageless to survive incarnate content. Active defence stacks giving 90%+ DDR. Shield can get 80%+ resists to most whilst having around 3k health and extra damage.

 

To get 90% resists on SR, the SR would be very very low health which some attacks can overcome.

 

SR is easier to build with a small budget though.

[Gobbledigook]

10 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

@siran  Shield does not need Ageless to survive incarnate content. Active defence stacks giving 90%+ DDR. Shield can get 80%+ resists to most whilst having around 3k health and extra damage.

 

To get 90% resists on SR, the SR would be very very low health which some attacks can overcome.

 

SR is easier to build with a small budget though. I like SR a lot, but i would just give the edge to Shield on survival. SR/Staff combo would work very well for survival though, but a little low damage. Shield can't access Staff.

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[DreadShinobi]

SR does not have an advantage in DDR over SD, except while leveling. Active Defense can be slotted with a Cytoskeleton Hami to improve the DDR and then double stack it with global recharge. Shield Defense tankers hit over 95% DDR.

[Parabola]

46 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

SR does not have an advantage in DDR over SD, except while leveling. Active Defense can be slotted with a Cytoskeleton Hami to improve the DDR and then double stack it with global recharge. Shield Defense tankers hit over 95% DDR.

This used to be the case but they changed it back on live. The ddr in active defence now isn't affected by enhancements (mids is wrong). The power can be double stacked to get twice the ddr though.

 

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

SR is easier to build with a small budget though.

Not just a small budget in terms of inf but also in terms of slots. SR gives a ridiculous amount of freedom for the rest of your build. It makes a fantastic base for proc builds needing so little help from set bonuses to acheive it's potential.

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, Parabola said:

This used to be the case but they changed it back on live. The ddr in active defence now isn't affected by enhancements (mids is wrong). The power can be double stacked to get twice the ddr though.

 

Not just a small budget in terms of inf but also in terms of slots. SR gives a ridiculous amount of freedom for the rest of your build. It makes a fantastic base for proc builds needing so little help from set bonuses to acheive it's potential.

That is what i meant by stacked. Yes it will hit 90%+ DDR.  @DreadShinobi

 

Shield does get a fair few 1 slot powers though also.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[Ston]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:36 AM, MaximusPrime said:

 

SR is a mediocre Defensive set.  Its a one trick pony, just Defense with highest DDR.  Because SR characters were always eating dirt they added in scaling resist which buffs your resistance to damage inversely to your health.  It works ok but SR will still take more dirt naps than more robust sets like Shield, Invuln, etc.  

 

I have a buddy who is a SR worshipper, he has SR Tanks, scrappers, stalkers, etc.  I don't mind really because it is nice to have veng bait on the team sometimes.

 

This is definitely a problem with the build/player, not the powerset.

 

I've rolled every tanker primary and SR is the best IMO. It's the only powerset where I've been able to leave it in the middle of +4 ITF enemies, walk away for 20 minutes, and come back to find my character with 90% health while enemies have no endurance. I think the edge it has over shield is that you have much more liberty with your build. You don't have to worry as much about endurance and you have a ton of slots leftover for damage.

[Gobbledigook]

8 hours ago, Cirque said:

 

This is definitely a problem with the build/player, not the powerset.

 

I've rolled every tanker primary and SR is the best IMO. It's the only powerset where I've been able to leave it in the middle of +4 ITF enemies, walk away for 20 minutes, and come back to find my character with 90% health while enemies have no endurance. I think the edge it has over shield is that you have much more liberty with your build. You don't have to worry as much about endurance and you have a ton of slots leftover for damage.

If SR can do that then Shield can also. I know i have tried it in the Dark Warshade ambush and they could not bring it down. if you were at 90% health then you had less resists than a Shield Tanker so it goes to say that they can do it also. Just put active defence on auto.

 

Shield has Active defence, against all odds, phalanx fighting and grant cover that are all one slot skills. Leaving 3 defence skills and one attack skill to slot really. SR does not have an advantage in slots they are fairly equal imo. They are equal on endurance also.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Gobbledegook

[Werner]

7 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

If SR can do that then Shield can also....

Yep. I think if you like going AFK in a crowd of defense debuffers, SR is your primary of choice, but I just did this with my Shield/MA: +4x8 ITF Cimerorans, 20 minutes AFK. To be fair, I use defense amplifiers full time for 5% melee defense. But if I hadn't built around defense amplifiers, I'd probably have grabbed that 5% some other way. Now I'm curious how much I can push it. 2 groups with enemies buffed? Dead after a few minutes. 2 groups not buffed? Dead after 19 minutes, LOL. Without being able to manually click Hasten, my DDR drops to only 67% for a while when there's only one stack of Active Defense. Aggro cap of Cimerorans may get cascading defense failure started during that period, but usually the double stack returns fast enough to keep things from getting life-threatening. But occasionally it doesn't, so going AFK is contraindicated at the aggro cap of debuffers. There's no problem in actual play, though. I keep hitting Hasten manually for a near permanent double stack of Active Defense, and Storm Kick adds 10% to defense, though that's specific to Martial Arts. So I'm normally fighting with 69% melee defense (66% ranged/Aoe) and 89% DDR, which prevents cascading defense failure in incarnate content as well.

 

Edit: I forgot to hit them with Darkest Night. That got me half an hour AFK at the aggro cap of +4x8 "Enemies Are Buffed" Cimerorans. I'm sure they could get lucky, but they'd have to get lucky. I rarely think to use Darkest Night solo. But it's a good thing to slap on someone before going AFK.

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Werner

[Linea]

I recommend:

Defense Armor: EnA (Any AT), Inv/ as the Tank Alternative. 

Heal Armor: Bio (Any AT, paired with a Defensive Weapon). 

Resist Armor: RadA (Brutes and Tanks Only)

 

Defense Armors, Expanded and In Order of Durability:  EnA (Any AT, Add Resists, Intermediate), SR (Advanced), SD (Intermediate), Inv (Easy).  If you’re not picking EnA, I Recommend Inv.  Inv is very easy to learn and drive, and very durable.  Once you get your feet under you, then you can pick some of the more difficult to drive armors.  My personal Favorites are EnA and SD, but I find myself driving EnA and Inv most often.

 

Notes:

Stone can still be very good, I just very much dislike Stone.  I would rank stone somewhere between Inv and SD for durability.

EnA is not on tanks, if it ever is, I might be forced to move it up or down the ratings, depending on how it's ported.

Most SR builds do not add the resists required to get it to the rating I give it.  SR is also the most difficult to drive if built my way.

Most SD builds also do not add the resists required to get to the rating I give it.  I use all three SD build slots:  Defense, Psi-Tank, Proc/Offense.

Inv is more likely to be built to defensive spec, it's just kinda naturally built that way.  It's also so easy to drive.  It's pretty much recommends itself.

 

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, Linea said:

Most SR builds do not add the resists required to get it to the rating I give it.  SR is also the most difficult to drive if built my way.

 

 

Can I see one of your SR builds that you like?

[Linea]

In normal play you don't need anywhere near these resist levels.

 

It's in the 801 tank thread.  Essentially the more resist you add, the higher your HP bar when it stops falling due to scaling resists.  The higher difficulties of 801 requires that to be much higher than standard content.  In 801.A, when I did it correctly, which was very difficult, it effectively drops to roughly half-health and stops.  Anytime it drops more than a fraction below the the scaling resists cap it out again.  Then I slowly start building it back up, until an other spike hits and drops it again. 

 

SR DM Tank - Prototype 801 - DN 2i - [i25].mxd

[MaximusPrime]

On 6/14/2021 at 6:09 AM, Cirque said:

 

This is definitely a problem with the build/player, not the powerset.

 

I've rolled every tanker primary and SR is the best IMO. It's the only powerset where I've been able to leave it in the middle of +4 ITF enemies, walk away for 20 minutes, and come back to find my character with 90% health while enemies have no endurance. I think the edge it has over shield is that you have much more liberty with your build. You don't have to worry as much about endurance and you have a ton of slots leftover for damage.

Interesting experience, mine is much different.  I've partied with many great players, and when they use their SR toons their health bar looks like it is spazzing out, up and down, up and down.  And then the SR whatever goes down for a nap.  SR is great, until it is not.  SR doesn't give it breaks.  From 100 to zero in nothing flat with little to no warning.  Go straight to jail do not pass go do not collect $200.    That's my experience.  Here is a True Story, I played a lvl 49 (at the start) MA/Regen Brute with no IOs except End Mod IOs that I bought as our team was forming a +4/8 ITF.  I stood side by side with Vet 100+ SR scrapper fully IOd and incarnated.  Guess which one died twice and which one didn't...  Yep SR was my veng bait.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Linea said:

In normal play you don't need anywhere near these resist levels.

 

It's in the 801 tank thread.  Essentially the more resist you add, the higher your HP bar when it stops falling due to scaling resists.  The higher difficulties of 801 requires that to be much higher than standard content.  In 801.A, when I did it correctly, which was very difficult, it effectively drops to roughly half-health and stops.  Anytime it drops more than a fraction below the the scaling resists cap it out again.  Then I slowly start building it back up, until an other spike hits and drops it again. 

 

SR DM Tank - Prototype 801 - DN 2i - [i25].mxd 5.45 kB · 75 downloads

In our many Runs Linea my SD Tank has been sturdier for 801.D than SR tanks.  I don't know about your experience but from what I have seen at the very least SD, Invuln and Granite have outperformed SR on 801.D runs.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 6/12/2021 at 3:36 AM, MaximusPrime said:

SR is a mediocre Defensive set.  Its a one trick pony, just Defense with highest DDR.  Because SR characters were always eating dirt they added in scaling resist which buffs your resistance to damage inversely to your health.  It works ok but SR will still take more dirt naps than more robust sets like Shield, Invuln, etc.  

 

I have a buddy who is a SR worshipper, he has SR Tanks, scrappers, stalkers, etc.  I don't mind really because it is nice to have veng bait on the team sometimes.

 

Counterpoint, my SR tank has faceplanted once. And I was very drunk at the time.

[Bill Z Bubba]

@Werner Ya made me curious. Ran to pocket d, grabbed 1 hour of defense and survival amps, set ITF to player debuffed, enemies buffed, max diff, grabbed aggro cap, set PB to auto and waited. Started at 7pm. Will edit this post with conclusion.

 

Edit 1: Ummmm, maybe I should try it without amps.

 

Edit 2: After 30 mins, still not dead. Will let the amps expire, doesn't look like I can just delete them, and try again later. And, yes @Werner I cap SL DR at around 28% health or so. Edit 3: And that's without the tank AT IO +DR proc in play.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Werner]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

@Werner Ya made me curious. Ran to pocket d, grabbed 1 hour of defense and survival amps, set ITF to player debuffed, enemies buffed, max diff, grabbed aggro cap, set PB to auto and waited. Started at 7pm. Will edit this post with conclusion.

 

Edit 1: Ummmm, maybe I should try it without amps.

Haha, yeah, I don't think you'll need amps. SR is tailor-made for this. I assume you built for a good smashing/lethal resist baseline so that you'll cap it before you're too low on hit points. And they can't debuff your defense. On enemies buffed, they're still hitting you significantly more often, and for significantly more damage, but they're still hitting 90% resists. I'm not sure how much the bosses do, but even on enemies buffed, I wouldn't think it would be enough on a Tanker to make a huge dent in a single hit.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Werner

[Bill Z Bubba]

Ok. Amps expired, did same test. It got scary at one point when I saw health drop to 10% but that was the lowest point over a 30 min period. Generally speaking after 20 mins they don't get me blow 20%. Again, being afk means the tank AT IO +DR proc is not being utilized. 23% health and capped SL DR. 25 mins no death. Immortal line accepted.

 

SR is amazeballs. Anyone thinking otherwise is very mistaken.

[ninja surprise]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

SR is amazeballs. Anyone thinking otherwise is very mistaken.

 

Until you fight those stinking Rularuus. I want to poke them all in the eye! 😞

Do the defense buffs help there?

[MaximusPrime]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ok. Amps expired, did same test. It got scary at one point when I saw health drop to 10% but that was the lowest point over a 30 min period. Generally speaking after 20 mins they don't get me blow 20%. Again, being afk means the tank AT IO +DR proc is not being utilized. 23% health and capped SL DR. 25 mins no death. Immortal line accepted.

 

SR is amazeballs. Anyone thinking otherwise is very mistaken.

I'll tell you one place SR suxballs, when you fight Rom.  The autohit fluffy for instance.  I did a Tank Duo twice with a SR tank while I was using SD one run and Bio the other.  With both of my tanks I stood toe to toe the whole time with Rom while the SR tank had to kite because he was getting destroyed.  To me that was other tanks +2, SR 0.  SR suxballs.

 

Perhaps you want to blame that guys SR, and say he doesn't know how to build it, blah, blah, blah.  If that is the case I haven't teamed with someone yet who "knows" how to build SR.

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, MaximusPrime said:

I'll tell you one place SR suxballs, when you fight Rom.

 

Nope. Build for Neg Nrg DR and the autohit fluffy can't do shit.

[Werner]

13 hours ago, MaximusPrime said:

If that is the case I haven't teamed with someone yet who "knows" how to build SR.

I suspect that's the explanation. @Bill Z Bubba has done the ITF solo at +4x8, no temps, no insps, enemies buffed, no deaths, on his SR Tanker. As far as how to build SR, treat it like a hybrid defense/resistance set. Sure, yeah, get to the incarnate soft cap for defense, but also crank your resistance. I'd focus on smashing/lethal and energy/negative for general play, and it just happens to be what you need for the ITF as well. I'd target around 50% resistance to at least those with one Tanker ATO. Not easy, but possible. Get yourself some extra hit points, some extra regeneration, primaries with heals would be great but are not required. You're probably double stacking the ATO for 57% resistance. Say you have 2700 hit points.  At 900 hit points you have about 27% scaling resistance from SR, 7% from Reactive Defenses. Now you're hard capped for resistance, and soft capped for defense, with all the DDR you need, and you probably won't spend much time that low on HP. Another option is the full @Linea, and cycle resist powers like Rune of Protection and Melee Core. SR is very, very solid when built right. This is all end game, incarnates, accolades, high budget, but I suspect SR is comparatively even better while leveling and with low to moderate budgets.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Werner