So imagine our Devs decided to go for CoH 2...

[Scarlet Shocker]

7 minutes ago, Trike said:

But we’re talking about a sequel game, so anything left in/taken out can just be handwaved away as being in a different universe. In CoH2, there is no Well - supers just are.

 

I dislike the idea of "heroes just are" but point well made. I believe origin and "raison d'etre" is important.

 

8 minutes ago, Trike said:

The original design of CoH knew this, which is why we fight street punks at first and face increasingly difficult mobs until we’re fighting gods and demons.

 

And then once you've acquired the power of a demi-god, a pedestrian throws a rock at you in the single worst bit of writing in this game and you're toast.

 

 

I actually like the concept of a level first, open end later - and 50 is a good level cap. It doesn't sound so daunting and anyhow, it's arbitrary - the game can take as long as it likes to get to 50 in a way but once you're there you can improve your powers continually doing existing and additional content. Imagine this way: Your journey to 50 gets you your powers and your slots (as per the game now) but once you're at 50 you get to enhance one or two of your powers continually over time... eventually those powers can become truly awesome and if you've got a pool of potentially up to 24 powers there's almost no limit to the originality you can apply to that character. If you then broaden the scope to say the powers you choose can have secondary effects that aren't in the original game (for example fire blast gets a high chance to confuse, or a hold gets the ability to crush an opponent seriously over time) you can have somebody who fits your ideal concept of the hero you want to create and play.

 

I've mentioned it before but the two truly excellent things about The Secret World (other than story) was the amazing Mission system where it delivered quests of different types and skill requirements and the powers wheel which was a very original idea if imperfectly implemented.

[Trike]

One thing I’d like to see in CoH2 is a full-on Sidekick System, meaning that you get a permanent pet of your choice and design. Make a Tank to go with your Blaster. Create an exact duplicate of your character. The Sidekick can literally be anyone or anything, and there are literally hundreds of duos from comics and movies we can model them on.

 

Batman and Robin spring immediately to mind, but comics and movies are replete with duos:

Cap & Bucky

The Wonder Twins

Flash & Kid Flash

Green Arrow & Speedy

Luke Cage & Iron Fist

Misty Knight & Colleen Wing

Ant-Man & the Wasp

Yellowjacket & the Wasp

Hawk & Dove

Harley Quinn & Poison Ivy

 

They don’t need to be human, either:

Ka-Zar & Zabu

Moongirl & Devil Dinosaur

Crystal & Lockjaw

Superman & Krypto

Shadowcat & Lockheed

Rocket & Groot 

Gert & Old Lace 

Falcon & Redwing

Squirrel Girl & Tippy-Toe

Big Guy & Rusty

 

Or even superheroes for that matter. We can do clones, or “guy in the chair”, siblings, alternate universe doppelgängers, whatever. Or just friends.

Holmes & Watson

Butch & Sundance

Luke & R2D2

Christian Walker & Deena Pilgrim

Starsky & Hutch

Cagney & Lacey

Hadrian & Royce 

Legolas & Gimli 

Ralph & Vanellope 

Din Djarin & Grogu 

 

This might be something for endgame content, to give players something to work toward, or maybe late-game, as missions become harder. It would be tricky to balance against Masterminds, but if the distinction is between “permanent companion you can fully design” and “temporary default pet”, I think it’s an easy sell. Just need to make sure MMs don’t then become overpowered.

[Trike]

20 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

And then once you've acquired the power of a demi-god, a pedestrian throws a rock at you in the single worst bit of writing in this game and you're toast.

 

 

I actually like the concept of a level first, open end later

That works.

 

21 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Your journey to 50 gets you your powers and your slots (as per the game now) but once you're at 50 you get to enhance one or two of your powers continually over time... eventually those powers can become truly awesome and if you've got a pool of potentially up to 24 powers there's almost no limit to the originality you can apply to that character.

I think both Marvel and DC have done versions of this sort of thing. Certainly the “Captain Universe” and “Phoenix Force” storylines in Marvel had otherwise street-level heroes attain godlike powers, albeit temporarily. That’s one model to emulate. Fire Blast becoming more cosmic or quantum or whatever as you level up, so you can punch Galactus in the nose.

[Scarlet Shocker]

19 minutes ago, Trike said:

Christian Walker & Deena Pilgrim

 

 

These two deserve an MMO of their very own. Oeming agrees with me on this!

 

That said, I see much of your list of equals in a duo whereas a sidekick is more of an apprentice than anything else. The way you've described it, I'm not certain that it's much more than a customisable pet. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I do love the idea of a "buddy system" though - something I think levelling pacts attempted to do, but failed at miserably.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Scarlet Shocker

[Trike]

37 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

These two deserve an MMO of their very own. Oeming agrees with me on this!

 

That said, I see much of your list of equals in a duo whereas a sidekick is more of an apprentice than anything else. The way you've described it, I'm not certain that it's much more than a customisable pet. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I do love the idea of a "buddy system" though - something I think levelling pacts attempted to do, but failed at miserably.

I think most of them probably fall into the mentor/apprentice category, but with various police/detective examples, there are plenty of equal partners listed. Certainly with duos like Luke Cage and Iron Fist, or Green Arrow/Black Canary, Colleen Wing/Misty Knight, Cloak & Dagger, Archer & Armstrong, we have teams of peers who are differently-powered but equal. And then there are duos like Hawkman and Hawkgirl or Clint Barton and Kate Bishop (Hawkeye & Hawkeye, I’m seeing a specific bird trend here) who are effectively the same character.

 

I think in terms of gameplay, however, the sidekick/pet should always be lesser-than so we players always feel the most super. So if you went with a clone of your Scrapper it would have your character’s abilities, just fewer of them. Less hit points, too. So something like Judge Dredd and Judge Anderson. She’s incredibly good at Judging, but he’s flat-out the best.

[Lyrium]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:10 PM, Trike said:

One thing I’d like to see in CoH2 is a full-on Sidekick System, meaning that you get a permanent pet of your choice and design. Make a Tank to go with your Blaster. Create an exact duplicate of your character. The Sidekick can literally be anyone or anything, and there are literally hundreds of duos from comics and movies we can model them on.

 

Batman and Robin spring immediately to mind, but comics and movies are replete with duos:

Cap & Bucky

The Wonder Twins

Flash & Kid Flash

Green Arrow & Speedy

Luke Cage & Iron Fist

Misty Knight & Colleen Wing

Ant-Man & the Wasp

Yellowjacket & the Wasp

Hawk & Dove

Harley Quinn & Poison Ivy

 

They don’t need to be human, either:

Ka-Zar & Zabu

Moongirl & Devil Dinosaur

Crystal & Lockjaw

Superman & Krypto

Shadowcat & Lockheed

Rocket & Groot 

Gert & Old Lace 

Falcon & Redwing

Squirrel Girl & Tippy-Toe

Big Guy & Rusty

 

Or even superheroes for that matter. We can do clones, or “guy in the chair”, siblings, alternate universe doppelgängers, whatever. Or just friends.

Holmes & Watson

Butch & Sundance

Luke & R2D2

Christian Walker & Deena Pilgrim

Starsky & Hutch

Cagney & Lacey

Hadrian & Royce 

Legolas & Gimli 

Ralph & Vanellope 

Din Djarin & Grogu 

 

This might be something for endgame content, to give players something to work toward, or maybe late-game, as missions become harder. It would be tricky to balance against Masterminds, but if the distinction is between “permanent companion you can fully design” and “temporary default pet”, I think it’s an easy sell. Just need to make sure MMs don’t then become overpowered.

Mario & Luigi!

[alloygray25]

My dream City of Heroes 2 would look like this;

 

- Created in Unreal Engine or something equivalent.

Take a look at the Mandalorian and the Superman game concept trailers. A modern CoH could look truly incredible.

 

- A seamless world set decades after the the first game.

We could have hub cities and towns, where we visit other players in order to create super-teams or to hang out, level up, buy stuff, trade, or unlock new costume styles. Random crime happens on the streets, randomly generated supervillains start a raid or a scheme at a major landmark, and Alpha Level threats happen at set intervals in different parts of the world.

Outside of the cities would be open countryside, suburbs, lairs, highway networks with traffic, large bodies of water with hidden bases, etc. etc.

 

- Console accessibility.

I would much rather play on PS5 than need a graphics card from 2037, for a game theoretically made in 2024-2025.

 

- Powerset Archetypes.

If they created a modernized City of Heroes, the BIGGEST thing I would want to see is the superpowers given much more freedom of choice, personalization, and the ability to match them up thematically. Give us hundreds of "baseline" powers to choose from, and then give us dozens of options in various subcategories to narrow down how they work.

The process could go like;

 

At Level 1 - Create 3 powers. 1 Travel, and 2 of your choice, either offensive, defensive.

 

When creating a power, choose the origin first (Magic, Tech, Natural, Mutation, Science). The idea here, is that character's abilities can come from innumerable sources, simultaneously. Look at Marvel's Doctor Doom for example. His melee capabilities come from his powered armor, but his ranged attacks can come from both his suit AND his knowledge of the arcane. So Doom has a mix of many possible powers from different origins. Another example would be Black Canary; Her fighting skills are natural, from training, but her Canary Cry sonic attacks come from a genetic anomaly, so she's technically a DC Mutant.

 

Afterwards, you pick a baseline powertype. An attack type, a defensive buff, some form of debuff, or maybe a travel ability, etc.

 

Once you have the basic concept, then you pick from the subcategories, allowing you to choose the medium, or the vehicle through which this power is used. If you want to be primarily melee, do you use a primary weapon? Or are you unarmed with enhanced combat skills, such as the classic Super Strength?

 

Then you choose the theme of the power. Are you a technological monk who channels artificially produced fire through your martial arts? Or are you an arcane warrior who swings a hexed warhammer around with reckless abandon, protected by a suit of enchanted stone armor?

 

A few limited examples for the sake of time and characters typed;

 

- The Origin of "Magic", the baseline power "Projectile - Blast", the subcategory "Eye Beams" OR "Palm Burst", and the theme of "Plantlife" OR "Electricity" OR "Sound", etc.

 

- The Origin of "Mutation", the baseline power "Control - Root", the subcategory "Thrown - Trap" OR "Manifest Binding", and the theme of "Earth" OR "Water" OR "Metal", etc.

 

- The Origin of "Technology", the baseline power "Melee - Dash", the subcategory "Enhanced Unarmed" OR "Weapon - Mace", and the theme of "Impact" OR "Gravity" OR "Air", etc.

 

- The Origin of "Natural", the baseline power "Buff Self - Armor", the subcategory "Bubble" OR "Manifest Armor" OR "Manifest Aura", and the theme of "Kinetic" OR "Fire" OR "Blood", etc.

 

And lastly, each of your choices could have a small skill tree attached to it, giving you options to further narrow how you want your powers to function. Perhaps you want your fire to burn more intensely, dealing more damage over time, but making it short-lived? Or you want your sonic attacks to have a higher chance to stun enemies, while dealing less raw damage? This of course, could be relegated to the use of enhancements from the current game.

 

The possibilities are endless, and open the way for future content packs, helping keep the game sustainable without being predatory. DC Online does this pretty well in my opinion. They sell entire powersets, like Atomic, Munitions and Rage, while still offering over a dozen base-game abilities.

 

- Cinematics.

A game like City of Heroes deserves epic cinematic moments during the main campaign, akin to SWTOR.

 

- Interactions.

A superhero game of this scale could use an NPC companion system, with conversations, background missions and potential romance options for those of us who enjoy that (In the same vein as Mass Effect or Fallout 4). Am I wrong to say that comic books include a TON of situations where superheroes hook up? Why should our hypothetical game not include the choice?

[Seldom]

Pie in the sky:

• No morality 'lanes', but consequences for interactions. Choose to save people? Public adores you. Do everything undercover? Folks don't know about your character despite your rising skills and successes. Help people in only one city zone? That neighborhood loves you, but you're a nobody elsewhere. Choose to do everything just for rewards? You might get offers from both sides to do things. Steal stuff? Cops are after you. Try to rule the world? Heroes try to stop you. Try to rule the world legally? Politicians come after you.
• No levels: as you use powers, others unlock, but no numbers, and you can just as easily find trouble in mercy as in grandville, though mercy might be slower. Reputation and skill ratings become the main 'levels'
• Training/modification/invention/evolving/incantation means of advancing powers, outside of combat. If you want to to improve your powers in a new direction outside of those you commonly use, this would be a method to do so.
• Continuous zones: a world that seems more interlinked, rather than walled off neighborhoods/islands
• World events: most missions/opportunities come and go with or without you, not 'waiting' for the character. Depending on how you react good succeeds, or evil becomes empowered. You don't have to go to an NPC to be told to defeat a gang, you see a gang doing something, you can do what you want in reaction.
• Meaningful heroism beyond boss fights and genocide: actually rescue people, help people, protect people, non-confrontational big-picture ways that may cost/hurt the hero, but benefit others.
• Meaningful villainy beyond killing other villains: actually manipulate, steal, seize control, threaten to gain personal benefit in ways that offer both upsides and downsides.
• Meaningful NPC contacts: help an NPC enough, they are welcome to do favors, help you/serve you, trust you/fear you.
• Meaningful antagonists: Particular NPC's you can run into/defeat often enough that they start taking initiative against you. Have to assist an npc? maybe they attack that npc. Need to seize an artifact? Sorry, they stole it just to spite you!
• Objective based PvP: instead of punching villain players in the face, try to stop their minions from activating the weather machine. Want take a hero player down a peg? Wear a hologram disguise and frame them as you rob a bank sporting their face/costume/name without getting caught. They then have to uncover the plot and prove their innocence!

 

[Paladin-6]

On 3/25/2023 at 11:34 AM, Snarky said:

Love it.  But no airport.  Who in their right mind will fly in and out of the madhouse of Paragon? We teleport into the air and shoot at each other and blow sky vehicles out of the air for badges. Great thought….but what airline? Even Allegiant and Spirit would avoid the place…probably 

Aeroflot, that Indonesian Airline, and several airlines that fly into, and out of many African nations/warzones come to mind.

 

In most of North America, Western Europe, and parts of Asia, airlines tend to be risk adverse. Other parts of our Earth they have airlines that people bring goats into the passenger compartment, and incoming fire from small arms, or PANPADS/SAMs is probable (though likely poorly aimed).

[Blastit]

The number 1 thing that I'd want for a City of Heroes sequel is for power set aniamtions to be made from the start to be considerably more freeform. You pick Ice Blast or whatever and then in customisation you pick wether you fire the blasts from your hands, via a ray gun, a magic wand etc. Program the game such that adding animations is easy work.

[Techwright]

Just learned of Versy today, an A.I. that uses text to generate environments.  The first thought I had upon seeing it was: I wonder if something like it could build the instances for a CoH 2.0?  Procedural generation based off typed input, either keyed in advanced by the development team for specific storyline missions and task forces, or selected by players from a menu of word for on-the-fly generation of radio/paper missions and the A.E. creations.

 

Here's the little blurb that clued me into it, along with a few graphics to aid the explanation. I've set the link to start at the Versy description:

 

 

[Trike]

I was watching a video about mods added to Cyberpunk 2077 (https://youtu.be/p9wykaic6IU) and it reminded me that I’ve always wanted to use the vending machines or go into the various restaurants in order to eat and/or drink. This would grant you a small stat bonus, akin to inspirations, except tiny. Like 1% or something, but longer-lasting, like 30 minutes.

 

In some superhero comics like The Flash or Spider-Man, the characters often talk about needing to consume copious quantities of comestibles to fuel their increased metabolism. Perhaps higher calorie content or better quality food could give a longer-lasting boost? (Sneakily reinforcing that eating veggies is better for you than eating fast food.)

 

Of course, that only applies to human characters. Robots could go to a car parts store and drink oil or eat rocks or whatever. Or maybe they’re just given the 1% bonus for being robots. Aliens eat weird stuff. Demons eat… I don’t know, fire maybe? Souls? Souls on fire? I have several characters that are animated statues/rocks or ghosts or zombies or vampires, so it might get unwieldy to account for them all.

 

Just a random thought.

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Trike said:

Demons eat… I don’t know, fire maybe? Souls? Souls on fire?

 

Well, dildos came out of @Bill Z Bubba's mouth once, so we probably don't want to know what went in.

[tidge]

13 hours ago, Trike said:

I was watching a video about mods added to Cyberpunk 2077 (https://youtu.be/p9wykaic6IU) and it reminded me that I’ve always wanted to use the vending machines or go into the various restaurants in order to eat and/or drink. This would grant you a small stat bonus, akin to inspirations, except tiny. Like 1% or something, but longer-lasting, like 30 minutes.

 

The original Deus Ex had the water fountains and vending machines for tiny refreshment bonuses.

[tidge]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:01 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

I risk sounding churlish when I wonder what the devs who were actually paid to make the game did a lot of the time. I appreciate it's not that simple - their QC procedures and sign offs probably took much more time and strenuous testing etc but imagine if this game now had some full on devs who could do the stuff the original team did.

 

At the end of Live, we were getting new power sets, with animations that were not trivial and benefited players across all levels (not just Incarnate content). We were also getting new emotes and costumes.

 

There were some Lore-related things that fell flat for me, and I absolutely despised the Incarnate system on Live, but there was obviously dev time being put into zone/mission geometry as well as story arcs. I find the original blue-side zones (and then the Hollows) are not particularly fun to travel/explore/play in... later zones like Striga, Croatoa, Redside (mileage varies on Grandville as an experiment in zone design... Shadow Shard is the true failed experiment in zone design IMO) and event the Dark Astoria revamp show how different design teams can work together to make an "open world" really work.

 

My specific griefs about the paragraph above: Some of the actual graphics used Redside was lazy, specifically the buildings which exist fully drawn below the 'solid' ground. Out of respect for graphic cards of the original era, those elements should have been eliminated such that out cards didn't have to render things we'd never see.

 

Also: I'll never be a true fan of the linear arcs that don't leave the world in (effectively) the same state as when the arc started. Just as "every comic is somebodies first comic", every new character should be able to experience the same comic-book world as every other player.

[Singular Base]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:01 PM, Ironblade said:

Fingers.

I want fingers.

And a left and a right shoe!

[Scarlet Shocker]

14 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Well, dildos came out of @Bill Z Bubba's mouth once, so we probably don't want to know what went in.

 

 

I can say, with a reasonably high degree of confidence, that I doubt too many people would want dildo(e)s in a new CoH2

 

But then there's always gonna be somebody who wants to play "dildo assault" as a power set

[Scarlet Shocker]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

 

At the end of Live, we were getting new power sets, with animations that were not trivial and benefited players across all levels (not just Incarnate content). We were also getting new emotes and costumes.

 

There were some Lore-related things that fell flat for me, and I absolutely despised the Incarnate system on Live, but there was obviously dev time being put into zone/mission geometry as well as story arcs. I find the original blue-side zones (and then the Hollows) are not particularly fun to travel/explore/play in... later zones like Striga, Croatoa, Redside (mileage varies on Grandville as an experiment in zone design... Shadow Shard is the true failed experiment in zone design IMO) and event the Dark Astoria revamp show how different design teams can work together to make an "open world" really work.

 

My specific griefs about the paragraph above: Some of the actual graphics used Redside was lazy, specifically the buildings which exist fully drawn below the 'solid' ground. Out of respect for graphic cards of the original era, those elements should have been eliminated such that out cards didn't have to render things we'd never see.

 

Also: I'll never be a true fan of the linear arcs that don't leave the world in (effectively) the same state as when the arc started. Just as "every comic is somebodies first comic", every new character should be able to experience the same comic-book world as every other player.

 

 

We did get a significant amount of content towards the end of live, I totally agree - War Witch pledged "Content Content Content" (from memory) and they did deliver. I have issues with the quality of some of that content but certainly there was a lot added to the game that gave us a richer late game experience.

 

Yes there were and remain building glitches - lag hill in the ITF is a classic case but I strongly suspect that wasn't laziness so much as budgetary considerations.

 

And yes, I know lag hill was fixed but other places haven't been.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Scarlet Shocker
lhfix

[Col. Kernel]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:00 AM, Greycat said:

- Move it *out* of just the locations we have - let us move to deal with both the aftereffects of what happened in COH 1 around (and off) the world. Did the power wake something in Egypt, Mesoamerica, the Antarctic?

 

Ditch the concept of servers.  Make each "server" a city.  So I roll my super in Chicago.  Oops, all my friend play in New York or Paris or Dubai.  Let me "server transfer" by buying a plane ticket.

 

Have local story arcs, but some local arcs unlock regional or global arcs (TFs or Raids).  The regional/global arc should be accessible by anyone in the region, or globe without buying a plane ticket.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Col. Kernel said:

Ditch the concept of servers.  Make each "server" a city.  So I roll my super in Chicago.  Oops, all my friend play in New York or Paris or Dubai.  Let me "server transfer" by buying a plane ticket.

 

Have local story arcs, but some local arcs unlock regional or global arcs (TFs or Raids).  The regional/global arc should be accessible by anyone in the region, or globe without buying a plane ticket.

I don't want the server/city I create a character on/in to dictate what content is available to them, or are you saying that each such "city" would be 100% identical to each other, save for their names?

[Col. Kernel]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I don't want the server/city I create a character on/in to dictate what content is available to them, or are you saying that each such "city" would be 100% identical to each other, save for their names?

 

No, I'm saying that some content could be similar or the same, but you should have different contacts in Dubai than you do in Hong Kong.  And you should have different adversary groups (e.g. Hellions might be a North American gang, while Council would be world wide).

 

Oooor...

 

Maybe you start in one city that has X level range, and when you outlevel that you move to the next city...

 

Cities should also look like their namesake.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Col. Kernel said:

No, I'm saying that some content could be similar or the same, but you should have different contacts in Dubai than you do in Hong Kong.  And you should have different adversary groups (e.g. Hellions might be a North American gang, while Council would be world wide).

 

Oooor...

 

Maybe you start in one city that has X level range, and when you outlevel that you move to the next city...

 

Cities should also look like their namesake.

Unless it is a direct 1-1 parity, then you'll run into the same issue we had with the O.G. Galaxy City vs Atlas Park, or CoV vs CoH - one will become a near wasteland, while everyone flocks to the other, and you'll waste precious developer resources.

[Scarlet Shocker]

If it's not Paragon, it stops being City of Heroes - similarly with the Rogue Isles - that's where the lore is - if we relocate to a  different city, then it becomes a different game by its very nature.

 

The only way the game could maintain it's CoH feel would be if somehow Paragon got obliterated and it was down to the heroes to revive it somehow but I feel quite strongly that City of Heroes 2 would need to be based on the existing lore we already have otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from Ship of Heroes or City of Titans, worthy as those successor projects may be.

 

But in terms of the morality, perhaps everyone could begin as a "neutral" alignment and maybe train as such until maybe level ten or so and then have to choose certain morality missions which then affects their destiny in a more tangible way than we have currently.

 

It seems to me that in our real world, even the most evil people believe they are working for the greater good, no matter how twisted those views might be to others - rarely to people in power consider themselves evil, so it would be interesting to see that reflected somehow in a game. We have our own example of Emperor Cole who despite doing awful things for decades, believed it was for the right reasons but his despotism took over.

[Blastit]

59 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

It seems to me that in our real world, even the most evil people believe they are working for the greater good, no matter how twisted those views might be to others - rarely to people in power consider themselves evil, so it would be interesting to see that reflected somehow in a game. We have our own example of Emperor Cole who despite doing awful things for decades, believed it was for the right reasons but his despotism took over.

 

Some, perhaps, but a lot of the worst people really just think "fuck you, I do what I want to" and relish being cruel to others. More complicated motivations are often preferred in writing because it's more interesting to write and think about but it's not more realistic necessarily.

[cranebump]

On 4/1/2023 at 12:53 PM, Scarlet Shocker said:

I dislike the idea of "heroes just are" but point well made. I believe origin and "raison d'etre" is important.

Agreed. Outside the nature of actual powers, the origin story is a window into the character's drives, motivations and, er...character, if you will.:-) There's a difference between a scientific accident (blinding you as a child) and your X-Gene kicked in while in high school.