Focused Feedback: Storm Blast

[Wavicle]

Just now, Jacke said:

 

So if a power has multiple functions/parts and say one of them is flagged only to accept non-set enhancements and eg. "damage" set enhancements, then it ignores all IOs from sets that aren't "damage" sets.  So if the power accepts Accuracy enhancements and it buffs those parts, but the Accuracy aspects of say "mez" set IOs don't.  Is that what you're saying.

 

This is just wrong.  It makes figuring out what the up-to 6 enhancements actually do to a power way more complex.  There's enough complexity in builds and this game.  Doing this is just begging to have most players hamstring their builds.

By multiple functions I mean things like Mastermind Pets that have a wide variety of powers, or a few random powers like Fault that are technically two powers in one. Slotting the pets with pet sets typically avoid this problem. There are few of any powers where it actually causes a problem as you’re fearing.

[Jacke]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

By multiple functions I mean things like Mastermind Pets that have a wide variety of powers, or a few random powers like Fault that are technically two powers in one. Slotting the pets with pet sets typically avoid this problem. There are few of any powers where it actually causes a problem as you’re fearing.

 

I'm familiar with handling this in another case, how to slot Dark Miasma/Darkness Affinity's Dark Servant.  To save on slots, I often just slot them with 3 enhancements:
L50 Endoplasm Exposure (Acc/Mez), L50+5 Siphon Insight Acc/ToHit Debuff, L50+5 Doctored Wounds Heal/EndRed.

 

I expect the Accuracy aspects to affect all Dark Servant powers.  And the other aspects appropriately in a similar way.

 

I can see how with the complexity of Mastermind Henchmen, this gets rather thorny.  I've got a low level Thugs/Dark Miasma Mastermind, let's take a look at what enhancements and sets can be slotted into it:

• Enhancements:
  • Endurance Reduction, Knockback, Damage, Accuracy
• Sets:
  • Knockback, Universal Damage, Mastermind Archetype, Recharge Intensive Pets, Pet Damage

So, depending on the powers that the Thugs have, some of those sets won't affect some of the powers at all ?!?

 

Considering those 4 types of simple enhancements.  I'd expect them all if they affect any power of a Thug, then any similar aspect in any set enhancement that can be slotted should affect those powers as well.  Example, the damage aspects of the Knockback set.  If a Thug power accepts buffing from a simple damage enhancement, then it should accept buffing from the damage aspect of any of the set enhancements.  It's 6 enhancements and there's ED to limit how much each aspect's enhancement can happen.

 

Layering on this much extra complexity just makes some powers poor.  And many players will get this wrong.

[Number Six]

34 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

All powers with multiple functions work this way, to my knowledge.

 

And always have, since the day that IOs were added to the game. Pet enhancement inheritance doesn't care one bit about IO sets and only looks at the underlying standard type (for IOs this is visible as the base color underneath the icon).

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, Jacke said:

To save on slots, I often just slot them with 3 enhancements:
L50 Endoplasm Exposure (Acc/Mez), L50+5 Siphon Insight Acc/ToHit Debuff, L50+5 Doctored Wounds Heal/EndRed.

Unless I am mistaken, in this example, Siphon Insight will work on any power with an accurate tohit debuff (which I think is just about everything the Servant has, but I could be forgetting something). Doctored Wounds is only going to work on Healing powers.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, Number Six said:

 

And always have, since the day that IOs were added to the game. Pet enhancement inheritance doesn't care one bit about IO sets and only looks at the underlying standard type (for IOs this is visible as the base color underneath the icon).

I was thinking also of Stone Melee>Fault and any other dual purpose power (though I can't offhand come up with another example).

Edited April 20, 2023 by Wavicle

[Jacke]

12 minutes ago, Number Six said:

And always have, since the day that IOs were added to the game. Pet enhancement inheritance doesn't care one bit about IO sets and only looks at the underlying standard type (for IOs this is visible as the base color underneath the icon).

 

I am sure this detail is not widely known.  And that many builds live are hamstrung because of it and the players don't know it.  It may only affect some powers, but those that it does, its effects are brutal.

 

Considering that there are just a maximum of 6 enhancements per power and EDs limit each enhancement aspect, I really think it's unnecessary and should be removed.  Like any change, it would need to be considered and prioritized for action, but I still think it's a unneeded complexity that should be removed.  If only to simplify the code and what players need to know to understand this game.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Jacke

[Wavicle]

Just now, Jacke said:

 

I am sure this detail is not widely known.  And that many builds live are hamstrung because of it and the players don't know it.  It may only affect some powers, but those that it does, its effects are brutal.

 

I really think it's wrong and unnecessary and should be removed.  Like any change, it would need to be considered and prioritized for action, but I still think it's a unneeded complexity that should be removed.  If only to simplify the code and what players need to know to understand this game.

I think it's there at least in part to limit the effectiveness of procs in such powers? That's basically a guess.

[Number Six]

It wouldn't simplify the code at all to remove it, it would make things more complex. You can't just copy all enhancements willy nilly to pet powers that may not be compatible.

 

The reason for doing it that way is so that things like damage and resistance enhancements don't get their wires crossed and end up in the wrong power with unexpected results.

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Number Six said:

It wouldn't simplify the code at all to remove it, it would make things more complex. You can't just copy all enhancements willy nilly to pet powers that may not be compatible.

 

The reason for doing it that way is so that things like damage and resistance enhancements don't get their wires crossed and end up in the wrong power with unexpected results.

Interestingly, most MM Resistance is now in the upgrades instead of the pets themselves, I wonder how much of an issue actually remains?

[Jacke]

20 minutes ago, Number Six said:

It wouldn't simplify the code at all to remove it, it would make things more complex. You can't just copy all enhancements willy nilly to pet powers that may not be compatible.

 

The reason for doing it that way is so that things like damage and resistance enhancements don't get their wires crossed and end up in the wrong power with unexpected results.

 

Is it only Pet/Henchmen and Pseudo-Pet powers so affected?

[Greycat]

Might have been mentioned...

 

Only real thing I can point out is the description for Storm Cell.

 

"  Additionally, Storm Blast attacks will be enhanced when used against foes victimized by Storm Cell."

 

Maybe change to affected by instead of victimized by? Aside from being more neutral, I'm not sure many people would feel "victimized" by a light sprinkling of rain... 😉  even if it is meant to enhance other powers.

[Isulkian]

a few more feedback.

Being playing without Jet streams. THAT is the solution (for me at least). Really more effective and no bad surprises seing mobs flying far because they were not in storm cell. 

Category5 does not enough damage regarding the time it takes to deals it. Fight that last more than 30 seconds are really rare, we should get a compensation for that. So it at least become a bit useful against AV for example...in 90% of game content, everything will be dead before he reach is full damage. (blizzard does more damage for example!!! with a shorter duration!)

Not sure intensify is a good idea. It feels like storm cell is the really power up mechanic of the set. As you clearly won t change anything in jet stream, i feel it would be nice to just delete intensify and replace it with a proper AOE this set lack. 

Storm cell is definitly too end heavy.

it feels like you have a lot of complexity to do as much damage as other sets wich are simpler and more straighforward. It should be more rewarding.  

The more i play this set the more i wonder if i m going to play it live. This a beautiful powerset but i m more and more getting the feeling it s perfect on paper but has too many flow for no gain in game. 

[Puma]

12 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

Can you clarify this bolded part here? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. You have to use attacks to clear any sort of encounter, so I'm not sure why you seem to say that needing to use further attacks to get Storm Cell procs is having a negative effect on the experience of the set for you.

Sure!  It's tied to the same problem I'm finding with using the secondary:  Since Storm Cell is slow but limited duration, but does no damage on its own, I feel like any second I'm not "attacking" is a wasted chance for it to proc. And since it's just "chance to proc" damage and not an actual guaranteed amount of damage the way another AoE would be, that feeling is amplified.  In a normal encounter with another set, I could throw in secondary debuffs, heals, self buffs etc. more fluidly and easily.  With Storm Cell, I can't...without feeling like I'm sacrificing even more damage from a set that already feels light on damage. 

 

A normal opener for a Blaster/Defender/Corr when solo is some sort of group mezz or debuff and a nuke to clear large parts of the mob so you can survive the rest of the encounter.  Sure...that eats a ton of your end, but you pop a blue or use a secondary to restore end while they get back up and that's enough that you can  pick off the remaining baddies in the fight.  With this set?  You drop 15.6 end for Storm Cell, 21 end for Cat 5, and you still haven't even started making a dent. If you want to use intensify to up the proc chances, you're down 5 more end, for a total of 41.8 end before you launch your first attack and do any actual damage.  You THEN have to keep spamming attacks to actually get the damage ramping up.  You don't have time to do end management, debuffing, etc.  You NEED to keep spamming attacks, but you're already almost half way through your end.   

 

And it's not just with nukes.  Take Ice Storm or Sleet, even, and compare.  If I drop Ice Storm, IMMEDIATELY enemies are debuffed, running slowly and attacking slowly, while suffering damage.  If I take a second to then use a non-damage power, they are STILL suffering that damage and debuff.  I'm still clearing the mob somewhat.  And if I have to rely on a few less end heavy powers like my tier 1 or 2 or a secondary attack because I'm getting winded for a second, I don't feel a change in the damage and debuff from Ice Storm. It's still working optimally.   But with Storm Cell? The proc chance isn't happening at all unless I'm attacking with my primary, and the more end heavy the attack the more chance it has to proc.  

 

 None of this may be mathematically accurate.  It may all even out somehow on paper. But it doesn't feel that way, and it's not at all enjoyable to me. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Puma

[Puma]

9 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I noticed this, mostly on the Defender and Corruptor.

I *think* the long duration of these powers is what's meant to balance this.

Go ahead and use your secondaries, SC/C5 will still be there after. But yes, it is to your advantage to use buffs and debuffs before you're ready to unload, so as to not interrupt yourself.

Or play a Sentinel and you don't have this problem.

That's fine. 

  

As long as your debuffs and buffs don't cause any aggro.  Otherwise?  You're kinda screwed. 

[Puma]

3 hours ago, Isulkian said:

a few more feedback.

Being playing without Jet streams. THAT is the solution (for me at least). Really more effective and no bad surprises seing mobs flying far because they were not in storm cell. 

Category5 does not enough damage regarding the time it takes to deals it. Fight that last more than 30 seconds are really rare, we should get a compensation for that. So it at least become a bit useful against AV for example...in 90% of game content, everything will be dead before he reach is full damage. (blizzard does more damage for example!!! with a shorter duration!)

Not sure intensify is a good idea. It feels like storm cell is the really power up mechanic of the set. As you clearly won t change anything in jet stream, i feel it would be nice to just delete intensify and replace it with a proper AOE this set lack. 

Storm cell is definitly too end heavy.

it feels like you have a lot of complexity to do as much damage as other sets wich are simpler and more straighforward. It should be more rewarding.  

The more i play this set the more i wonder if i m going to play it live. This a beautiful powerset but i m more and more getting the feeling it s perfect on paper but has too many flow for no gain in game. 

Hmmm 

 

Random thought that I haven't given much time to, so take it for what it's worth:

 

What if you changed Intensify? Instead of an Aim variation, you made it a T or PBAoE storm version of Soul Drain/Drain Psyche? 

 

You use the enemies within the storm cell to power up your storm powers, granting you increased recovery, and boosting all your storm powers' to hit and damage for 25 seconds.  This buff would ALSO apply to Storm Cell and Cat 5's procs.  You could cap the number of enemies affected or the max buff you receive from it to keep it from being too powerful. 

 

This would help a few of my concerns:  the end cost  of this set, the difficulty of buffing Storm Cell's accuracy especially against higher def baddies, and still give you a Aim ability to buff your own damage and acc briefly.  Allow it to be slotted for acc/recharge/end drain/to hit buffs.  

 

This would ALSO give people who slotted the end mod chance for stun proc a way to set storm cell (and later Cat 5), then stun minions while they go about ramping up the damage on the entire mob.   

Edited April 20, 2023 by Puma

[Puma]

Edit:  It looks like Storm Cell's base accuracy was bumped to 1.64 with this patch.   That should help with the defense concerns at higher levels.  It has a shorter recharge, but still costs 15 end each time you cast it, the same as Ice storm and other rain powers, which do higher percent debuffing out of the box and do damage on their own. 

I'd rather see the change swapped.  Since it's relatively easy to get it recharging fast enough to be perma, keep the recharge as it was but lower the end cost and up its travel speed.  That would be a huge QoL change for power.  Right now Im still sucking end having to drop it every fight and then use my other attacks to get it doing much damage.  Sure, it's nice that it's ready to be dropped right away if it goes down in the middle of a fight, but since you're already dying for end because of the set's design, you don't have 15 end to spare to drop it mid fight, and if you do, you don't have end to keep attacking to get it to do much.  

 

And without it up, the set REALLY struggles. 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Puma

[Marshal_General]

I don't think the problem is if it is perma or not, but is it ready for the next fight. If I am at the next fight and it is dwadling around where the last fight was, then in today's steam roll fast fast faster mission running, the set will be viewed as lacking as traps in such teams.

[WindDemon21]

7 hours ago, Number Six said:

 

And always have, since the day that IOs were added to the game. Pet enhancement inheritance doesn't care one bit about IO sets and only looks at the underlying standard type (for IOs this is visible as the base color underneath the icon).

That's still REALLY bad and should be looked at. I've literally only missed about 4 months of coh since it started in 2004-sunset and since Homecoming and I didn't even know about this with sets. I knew obviously slotting hold in singularity wouldn't boost it's damage and obvious things but didn't know that SETS were specific to only the powers that take them within the pet.

 

Slots and the 6 slot cap are already too limiting for powers like these, there shouldn't be another penalty with acc/damage of one set like ice mistrals, not buff the acc and damage of the other power in the set because it doesn't have a slow component. The stats should (and even do list on the powers accuracy/damage so extra confusing) go to the power as a whole and then transfer to those powers that take those stats.

 

This honestly needs worked on asap after this patch drops down. For now just add the small 1% of the one proc to the other proc and vice versa so this isn't an issue with storm, and then work to fix this.

 

If for some reason (which I can't imagine is IMpossible) the coding can't be fixed so that acc/dam/whatever from any slotted source in a pet/pseudo power goes to all powers on it that take that stat, then somehow each individual pet is going to need fixed to work around this. (By allowing each power on the pet to take a wider array of sets, or fo what were suggesting for those storm powers)

 

Again this is extra confusing as is because say you slot a hold set into singularity, it SHOWS in the pet enhancement screen that it's boosting the pets accuracy, that's it. Nowhere does it (or ever has) say that that accuracy is ONLY boosting the sings gravity distortion, and NOT the accuracy of its crush or lift.

 

With IO sets there are many other things this affects. Cloud senses acc for example:

 

in dark servant not helping it's heal (or the -to hit not helping it's darkest night!)

 

In the necro pets not helping the minions puke/brawl, Lts sword attacks etc.

 

Just because its "always been that way" does NOT mean it's ok, or that most people know that's how it worked either as there is ZERO description of that anywhere.

 

Please fix this!

[WindDemon21]

Also, I'm sure there has to be a way for the slotted sets to tansfer their stats to the pet itself, then have the individual skills used pull from those stats on the pet of what they use. (Ie basically what WE see.

 

Though I'm not sure how this would work with procs unless maybe those can somehow flag differently, and even if not most pets/pseudos wouldnt be OP if say a damage proc of one set went to each power on the pet as a result, and if there was one where this causes an outlier, that could be addressed individually then.

 

In relation to the concern of "but if we open it all up it may do unexpected things" well, slow and end mod sets have damage in them but the acc/dam/slow for example still boosts the accuracy and slow of shiver even though it doesn't do damage and it's fine.

 

There HAS to be done solution to this.

[Black Zot]

7 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Maybe change to affected by instead of victimized by? Aside from being more neutral, I'm not sure many people would feel "victimized" by a light sprinkling of rain... 😉  even if it is meant to enhance other powers.

 

Cue the introduction of a fashionista enemy group.

[Heatstroke]

So doing some more testing and I agree that Cat 5 needs so more "oomph" up front.  The concept of a storm building and raging is nice. But in the reality of playing it doesnt work as well. Reverse the concept.. Storm hits like a truck and then dies down.. which is still in the realm of " reality " 

 

I tried some more characters for comparison. 

 

Ice/Cold Corrptor drops

 

Sleet-- Good size Debuff

Ice Storm

Blizzard 

 

Not only does the mobs melt, but the area of effect, stacked slows and knockdown keeps the mob pretty much in the area until everything is dead or darn near dead. And Ice Storm and Sleet will come back up almost at the same time Blizzard power duration ends. 

 

Ice/Storm Defender does the same thing with Freezing Rain, Ice Storm and Blizzard and can throw in a Tornado and Lighting Storm for good measure. 

 

The Storm Blast/Storm Corruptor takes more time to defeat the same sized mobs. Many mobs scatter so they dont get the full effect of Cat 5, The slows arent enough to keep mobs from running away, Sometimes Storm Cell chases a foes leaving the area where I placed it.. 

 

Why doesnt Storm Blast have a power like Chained Fences that could be a cone with an AoE immobilize? That would help do damage AND help keep some foes locked down in an area. 

 

 

[Heatstroke]

Just tried on the test server after the update.. 

 

The reduced recharge makes a huge difference. However the End Cost is murderous. 

[Captain Fabulous]

Are there patch notes to see what's changed?

[electric_emu]

Really happy to see the reduced recharge on Storm Cell.  Feels much better right out of the gate and gives you some flexibility with enhancing it at low levels rather than being compelled to slot recharge reduction just to maintain it.   

 

Also, I'm a bit late but the improved fx on Storm Cell are very nice.  

[Wavicle]

35 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Are there patch notes to see what's changed?

click Reveal hidden content under where it says Release Candidate 1 Changes near the top

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Wavicle