Making the Shadow Shard fun

[Asymptotic]

Last week, I ran a kill most Dr Quarterfield TF and it was not fun.  There were just too many missions.  Early on, it alternated between street sweeps and missions.  Then there was a lot of bouncing back and forth from shadow shard and other zones.  Then there were a lot of missions that were just the same mission repeated 3-4 times.  Finally, there was a lackluster mission without an AV.  Even with TT and multiple fully incarnated 50s, it took us over 3 hours to complete.

 

The Dr Q TF is not unique in this.  The other TFs take even longer and are more repetitive.  Because of this, no one is willing to consider any of these TFs except for WST speed runs.  And no one runs missions in the shadow shard.

 

I find this sad.  Visually, the shadow shard is one of the most stunning zones in CoH.  The Rularuu are interesting and challenging mobs.  And it was designed to be CoH's endgame, until Praetoria was introduced years later.

 

What would you change to make the shadow shard fun?  Please split your comments into two categories; changes that doesn't require any new content or features, and changes that requires new development.

 

My recommended changes without new content and features are:

 

1. Halve the number of missions of TFs.  Eliminate the street sweep missions, the out-of-zone missions, and the duplicated missions

2. Make the shadow shard easier to travel around in.  Provide a teleporter on each floating island to its neighboring islands.  Mark the teleporters on the map.

3. Provide SG teleporters to each of the shadow shard zones.  (Does this already exist?)

 

As for changes that require new development, I would like to see Dr Q have a unique mission with an AV at the end.  It would also like to see tie ins with later store arcs such as Who Will Die.

 

[kito]

I agree the shadow shard looks great I often used it as hell for my demon to travel to because it's dead. 

 

The no new content WOD be to split up the tf like a posi 1/2 possibly just gut it and remake it. 

  

for new development adding in some giants monsters maybe 3-4? And when you beat them all it summons a hamidon like fight with the big bad of the area I think its name is Rularuu?  Beat him get some nice dropped loot. Idk how his fight would be but I would think hard. Rough ideas you do 25% of his HP and he splits into 3-4 Rularuu of a different color only being able to be hurt by x thing. Actually  going to change all of that make this the mostly only fight in the game where leagues will matter.and split the fight. 

 

MY shadow shard lore is very rusty but I think there is monuments of hatred and such there. So you start this thing by beating a av at each monument and taking control of it recluse victory style  

 

When controller by the hero's it buffs the. With w/e there would be 3 orbs 3 different buffs.  

 

A team of hero's would each need to protect each orb or the S.O.R would get it back under there control. After the hero's own all three orbs Rularuu would spawn and send an army to attack the fire base. A team of hero's would need to protect the base while a team of hero's fight Rularuu. 

(Could add some things in the base for the hero's to protect and heal that just does alot of dmg to the horde of s.o.r. that attack them.)

 

Each time Rularuu looses 25% of his HP he would change color to match one of the three orbs then only hero's with the buff from the orb can hurt him now you need to moves hero's from the orb to Rularuu and from Rularuu to the orb without loosing control of it. 

 

When he is down to his last 25% up he might split into 3 Rularuu of a different color but each waker. When there beat you win I guess.  

 

Would probably add more for the firebase. to do but if it's portal is damaged Rularuu will despawn hero's teleport back to Paragon and the shard resets. 

 

 

Would maybe add a nemasis event in there to. 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by kito

[Snarky]

43 minutes ago, Asymptotic said:

Last week, I ran a kill most Dr Quarterfield TF and it was not fun.  There were just too many missions.  Early on, it alternated between street sweeps and missions.  Then there was a lot of bouncing back and forth from shadow shard and other zones.  Then there were a lot of missions that were just the same mission repeated 3-4 times.  Finally, there was a lackluster mission without an AV.  Even with TT and multiple fully incarnated 50s, it took us over 3 hours to complete.

 

The Dr Q TF is not unique in this.  The other TFs take even longer and are more repetitive.  Because of this, no one is willing to consider any of these TFs except for WST speed runs.  And no one runs missions in the shadow shard.

 

I find this sad.  Visually, the shadow shard is one of the most stunning zones in CoH.  The Rularuu are interesting and challenging mobs.  And it was designed to be CoH's endgame, until Praetoria was introduced years later.

 

What would you change to make the shadow shard fun?  Please split your comments into two categories; changes that doesn't require any new content or features, and changes that requires new development.

 

My recommended changes without new content and features are:

 

1. Halve the number of missions of TFs.  Eliminate the street sweep missions, the out-of-zone missions, and the duplicated missions

2. Make the shadow shard easier to travel around in.  Provide a teleporter on each floating island to its neighboring islands.  Mark the teleporters on the map.

3. Provide SG teleporters to each of the shadow shard zones.  (Does this already exist?)

 

As for changes that require new development, I would like to see Dr Q have a unique mission with an AV at the end.  It would also like to see tie ins with later store arcs such as Who Will Die.

 

…you ran a kill most Dr Q and were shocked it took a while…..

 

okay, I honestly got nuthin.  I need to go think about this.  Such an easy target for Snark. It has to be a trap of some kind.  Right?

[Techwright]

I agree the TFs need an overhaul: cut the fat, add interest.  Anything longer than a standard hour, give it the Posi treatment and make it a two-parter.  The OG MMO came out at a time when MMOs were new and marvelous, and people were willing to sacrifice massive chunks of time to play them.  Now we've lives (well, maybe not Snarky), and more limited time.

 

Island hopping without new content:  streamline the geysers.  Rather than flopping around with a chance to miss, make it a sure thing to travel by geyser action from point A to point B, and increase the speed as well.

 

Island hopping with new content:  Introduce an optional ship system, something that moves from island to island as if you were piloting a boat.  Yes, we have jetpacks, but a ship can act as a sort of island itself, allow another gameplay possibility (next up).  For that matter, why not pilot tiny islands?

 

Making better use of the space with new content:  Introduce occasional creatures that fly/float in the void between islands.  Make them larger than your standard human size, maybe elephant sized.  Let them travel in small groups/pods (void whales if you will) set them as elite bosses and make it possible to fight them from the decks of proposed ships.  Have one that is a giant monster rank.

 

Making better use of the space with little to no content change:  Create move vertical distance between islands, not all on a similar plane.  This is a weird place anyway, so why not have weird gravity.  Have a few islands upside down.  You'll walk/fight on the surface as if it was perfectly normal, but it is inverted.  Go crazy: have a few do a slow tumble in position, but always a player who arrives to the surface will perceive it as "normal" and everything else as weird.

 

Improvement with new content:  Retool the look of the islands, especially key ones, to be much more individually distinctive.  One thing that's always annoyed me is that its easy to get turned around because all the elements between the islands is fairly homogenous.  I'd like something distinctive that immediately lets me know what island I'm viewing.

 

Improvement with new content: Introduce an event to the Shard.  Shard creatures swarming comes to mind as one example

 

Do villains have standard access to the zone like they do the RWZ?  I don't recall. If not, find a way to make it so, but not for PVP (unless a small arena within the zone can be designated for such).

Edited April 15, 2023 by Techwright

[Asymptotic]

Admittedly, doing a kill-most run of Dr Q was foolish.  I haven't done a non-speed run of shadow shard TFs since they were released on live, and I was hoping that TT plus IO sets would make a it not too painful.  Its just that doing a kill-most run made it obvious how long and repetitive it was.  Also, Dr Q lacks the awesome-looking final storm palace mission with the Tall-Boy AVs that the other two TFs had.  Instead, it ends with poking eyeballs in Orabenga.

 

I like the idea of defending Firebase Zulu from a Rularuu assault.  The firebase is the highlight of the first shadow shard zone and fighting off an attack would make the base's hold feel more precarious.

 

I don't know whether villains have access to the shadow shard.  I suspect not, but they should.  It would be cool to have a three-way battle with Aeon Corp competing with the Portal Corp in the colonization of Shadow Shard, and the Rularuu fighting them both.

[Clave Dark 5]

I just did that one TF... of stuff... in the Shard... the last time I played last week.  You know, that one where you fight a lot of Nem in some caves, then some Shard monsters, then you're somewhere like Founders Falls, then back to fifteen more cave maps or whatever?  And everyone gets to use their TT all the time?  It has a LOT of fat to cut and needs a LOT of interest to be added, whatever it was called. 

 

And yeah, other than giving out a free jetpack power whenever you zone, Shard needs something to help make it all more navigable.  And to make it feel like it's worth being in in the first place.  (I mean, there's lots of zones that feel that feel boring to bother with too, like all those ruined city maps like Boomtown, etc.)

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Asymptotic said:

3. Provide SG teleporters to each of the shadow shard zones.  (Does this already exist?)

Yes, this already exists.

[Ruin Mage]

7 hours ago, Asymptotic said:

1. Halve the number of missions of TFs.  Eliminate the street sweep missions, the out-of-zone missions, and the duplicated missions

Personally, I agree with this. Dr Q is a relic of its time back when MMOs were all about time investment and grueling tasks that put the players to sleep. Dr. Q could even get an overhaul where it follows a similar pattern to Sara Moore and Faathim. Y'know - a big boss fight at the end. The fact it ends on a kill all is hilariously horrible.

Making it flow better mission wise would be a good place to start. A tweak to the narrative, a new final mission, less kill alls all over the game world, and boom you have a TF that can be on the fun level of Faathim or Moore.

 

7 hours ago, Asymptotic said:

It would also like to see tie ins with later store arcs such as Who Will Di

Post-WWD Shadow Shard would be very interesting to see. What with Rularuu having briefly been brought into the world and the Rula-Shin interactions. How that'd look? Who knows.

 

 

7 hours ago, Asymptotic said:

2. Make the shadow shard easier to travel around in.  Provide a teleporter on each floating island to its neighboring islands.  Mark the teleporters on the map.

Doing this and getting rid of the geysers would be A+

Overall, I'm a big fan of the Rularuu stuff and I know stuff can be done with it. Who knows? Maybe the Devs have plans for Shadow Shard but its more of a 'later' thing. Kallisti Wharf, to my knowledge, is the next big thing. So perhaps after that it'll be the Shadow Shard!

I do think that Justin Augustine also needs a re-do. That mess of a TF can eat my shorts.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Shadeknight

[Judasace]

NTBAD but if they had the manpower to redo TF's then Synapse, Citadel and Manticore would probably already have been redone. Post probably belongs in the "Suggestions and Feedback" forum, where it can hang out with all of the other ideas that will never, ever get implemented. Unfortunate, but realistic.

[Snarky]

Redo Dr. Q.  Just drop a turd in the punchbowl. Cut it to 1/3 the length.  Just semi randomly get the F rid of 2/3 of it.  Leave enough to make people appreciate not having to do it all 3 times as long.  Then put a boss fight at the end.  Investment in time?  Investment in some hack and slash coding.  and burn.  do not forget to burn.

[Communistpenguin]

3 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

Personally, I agree with this. Dr Q is a relic of its time back when MMOs were all about time investment and grueling tasks that put the players to sleep. Dr. Q could even get an overhaul where it follows a similar pattern to Sara Moore and Faathim. Y'know - a big boss fight at the end. The fact it ends on a kill all is hilariously horrible.

Not only that, but the OG devs thought TF's would be something SG's did over the course of like a week. Not shotgunning it all in one go like we do.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Redo Dr. Q.  Just drop a turd in the punchbowl. Cut it to 1/3 the length.  Just semi randomly get the F rid of 2/3 of it.  Leave enough to make people appreciate not having to do it all 3 times as long.  Then put a boss fight at the end.  Investment in time?  Investment in some hack and slash coding.  and burn.  do not forget to burn.

No. I solo Dr Q because it is different. There are already TFs that are exactly what you want. Cut out the kill X zone sweeps, ok. cut back some of the identical maps ok. Adding an AV that isnt even in the story just because? nope. Go do augustine or something if you want that.

[ivanhedgehog]

36 minutes ago, Communistpenguin said:

Not only that, but the OG devs thought TF's would be something SG's did over the course of like a week. Not shotgunning it all in one go like we do.

it takes an hour and a half....not that bad.

[Col. Kernel]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Redo Dr. Q.  Just drop a turd in the punchbowl. Cut it to 1/3 the length.  Just semi randomly get the F rid of 2/3 of it.  Leave enough to make people appreciate not having to do it all 3 times as long.  Then put a boss fight at the end.  Investment in time?  Investment in some hack and slash coding.  and burn.  do not forget to burn.

 

Save the original to run through Ouro.

[Snarky]

18 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

it takes an hour and a half....not that bad.

I have known one team that did this in about an hour and a half.  I am sure more have done so.

 

The team was the absolute fastest speed runners from Cosmic Council.  People with verified records on speed runs across the game.  

 

Personally the PUG teams I am on generally do this in about 2 1/2 hours.  I think it is pretty disingenuous of you to say it as a 90 minute run.  

[lemming]

25 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

it takes an hour and a half....not that bad.

Yea, I've managed to solo it in that time.  And I'm not sure if there's much difference between kill most & speed frankly.

 

The redundant missions could be trimmed.

 

I could go for the shard zones to be shrunk in 1/2 and rather than dump the geysers, I'd just like them to work a little better.  They act up if you have any travel bonuses, so I tend to use them more as a jump toward, but then detour near landing often.

[lemming]

To trim the times on Dr Q

At the start, have someone already out at Foxtrot to ATT the team out there.

Rotate thru TT when needed.

Use Ouro and base portals  to go back to Paragon for those missions, TT back.

Mission TT and ATT for some of the longer distances in the shard.

 

And a few of the missions are kill a boss, or get hostages.  Those can be semi-stealthed, except when dealing with the eyeballs. Then it's easier to just blow thru the mobs.  Did this recently on a six person group and we still came under 2 hours (which is a more realistic time.  90 min is pushing speed more, I haven't quite got one below 90 min, but 90-120 can be expected if done smoothly)

 

Similar tactics work on the other shard TFs.

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, lemming said:

To trim the times on Dr Q

At the start, have someone already out at Foxtrot to ATT the team out there.

Rotate thru TT when needed.

Use Ouro and base portals  to go back to Paragon for those missions, TT back.

Mission TT and ATT for some of the longer distances in the shard.

 

And a few of the missions are kill a boss, or get hostages.  Those can be semi-stealthed, except when dealing with the eyeballs. Then it's easier to just blow thru the mobs.  Did this recently on a six person group and we still came under 2 hours (which is a more realistic time.  90 min is pushing speed more, I haven't quite got one below 90 min, but 90-120 can be expected if done smoothly)

 

Similar tactics work on the other shard TFs.

Here is the thing.  90 min and more realistically 120 minute times are tossed around in this thread. 

 

PUG teams with members who have maybe done this TF once or twice in their careers, if that, do not get these times.  If you are with people who are running this so often you have it memorized....get professional help.  Now.

[lemming]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Here is the thing.  90 min and more realistically 120 minute times are tossed around in this thread. 

 

PUG teams with members who have maybe done this TF once or twice in their careers, if that, do not get these times.  If you are with people who are running this so often you have it memorized....get professional help.  Now.

While I have a decent memory, I rely on https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Dr._Quaterfield_Task_Force

for steps.

 

And yea, it gets run during the WST since it's a decent chunk of merits, but rarely on more than a couple characters.  And I find it less tedious than comparably longish TFs.

[Asymptotic]

I can certainly imagine a shadow shard TF speed run taking only 1.5-2 hours.  I've been on such speed runs in the past.  The problem is that I did a kill-most run at +3, not a speed run at +0.  Despite that we were killing them relatively quickly and we used TT when we can, it still took us a little over 3 hours.  Everyone was getting tired of it after the 2 hour mark, which was also when the repeated missions started.  For the last couple of missions, we dropped it to +2 and speed ran them.

 

Now admittedly, you can argue that its my fault for doing a kill-most instead of a speed run.  But I would argue that if a TF is only desirable as a speed run on a WST, there is something wrong with its length or pacing.

 

I remember doing the shadow shard TFs with my SG back when they were released on live, where Dr Q took over 5 hours to finish and we had to split the other TFs over two long play sessions.  I no longer have the time to put that many hours into a TF.  And even then, our SG swore to never run them again.

 

As an aside, I personally avoid speed runs.  I prefer a relaxed pace with friendly banter and bad dad jokes, and I'm far more likely to get that with a kill most run. 

 

[biostem]

I think the shadow shard play experience could be improved by implementing a few things:

 

> Add a new currency - Shadow Shard Exploratory Tokens, (or SSETs), along with appropriately placed vendors.  These would be awarded at a fairly low rate for defeating Shard Shard enemies, and in a more reliably manner for completing missions and story arcs in the Shadow Shard.  In addition to granting the temporary jet pack, adjust the Shadow Shard day job to also provide some bonus tokens when you log back in.

 

> These tokens could then be exchanged for some useful or otherwise desirable items:

1. A special version of the Team Transporter temp power, which only works in the Shadow Shard, and which has a shorter cooldown, (15 mins or so).

2. Allow converting SSETs to reward merits at whatever is deemed a reasonable rate.

3. Offer some other useful powers for SSETs, such as temporary jetpacks or maybe special temporary shield powers that offer special resistance to minions of Rularuu.

 

> Intersperse some waypoint-like mini bases throughout the Shadow Shard that offer amenities like a crafting table, a portal back to Portal Corp, a trainer, hospital beds, a vendor, and so on.

 

> Add something akin to the police radio or newspaper, but within the Shadow Shard, to support teams that just want to do PUGs there.

 

Other notes:  The SSETs that are awarded at the end of each mission should account for the size of the map and whether it is a defeat all or not.  I know adding yet another new currency is not a favorite idea among folks, but I don't think having Shadow Shard content award something like Vanguard merits makes much sense, and using inf kind of detracts from the specialness of doing this zone-specific content...  

[Major_Decoy]

Honestly, I think the thing that would have the best chances of making the shadow shard fun is if the Geysers could actually work like they're supposed to so you could actually navigate a path with them.

Even on live it was "Oh, they work if turn off sprint and your travel powers" but swift and hurdle seem to mess with things too.

 

I understand the difficulty in the prospect of it, but flight and teleport don't actually get you to experience the Shadow Shard the way Super Jump and Super Speed do. You're interacting less with the environment.

 

(Alternatively, maybe there's a way to just double all flight speeds and teleportation distances while in the Shadow Shard? Even the jet packs and rocket board stuff)

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Honestly, I think the thing that would have the best chances of making the shadow shard fun is if the Geysers could actually work like they're supposed to so you could actually navigate a path with them.

Just make then instantly teleport you a connecting pad on another island...

[Major_Decoy]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Just make then instantly teleport you a connecting pad on another island...

Yeah, it'd hurt the flavour of the zone a little, but that'd probably be the easiest fix.

I'd change them from geysers then, make them mystery holes. You jump in and pop out somewhere else.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Yeah, it'd hurt the flavour of the zone a little, but that'd probably be the easiest fix.

Maybe just keep them and instead place in some mini-portals, then.

 

5 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

I'd change them from geysers then, make them mystery holes. You jump in and pop out somewhere else.

Sure, but please don't make them random...