The New Rogue and Vigilante arcs - thoughts?

[BurtHutt]

So, I ran the arc with a team over last weekend. It seems they follow the same formula as previous arcs added by HC and, to a degree, the Dr. Aeon SF. They have lots of story and info and that's my biggest concern - there's too much stuff to read in a team dynamic. That and you don't interact with contacts in the mission if you're not lead.

 

We also get to deal with the same old factions and so on which is kinda meh. 

 

Overall, I'll say I really disliked going through all of this. Actually, it was awful. The arcs are long and drawn out. I really don't think they're good for a team dynamic. Most of the team didn't understand the fully story as they couldn't read along. I really wish the HC Devs would try and make these new missions more team friendly. I don't know if I'll ever run one of these again. It's really too bad but I did want to relay why and hopefully some changes can be made to the mission template used by the Devs.

 

[cranebump]

I thought the info dump on the previous Watkins arc was a bit much, as well. But you could skip through it if you wanted, and the arc was fun overall. I also thought the s rioters were trying to give us something different, and a bit more complicated, for which I applaud them. 
 

That said, I never considered how things might run on a team. Without cut scenes, teams are generally left out on all arcs. Unless you run all in voice, they’re just not going to get much of that detail. And I think that maybe (maybe) it’s to most people’s taste to just run the mishes and pound some enemies. Which means arcs with depth and detail are probably meant to appeal to the solo experience. Not saying this is either good or bad. It’s just what this game gives us, as it currently is. 
 

I’ll have to run the new stuff to actually render a worthwhile opinion. And I already have questions about the tilt toward the grey alignments (though we DO have plenty of love for heroes and vills elsewhere). But new content is new content. I’ll always support that over another powerset. 

[Glacier Peak]

I'm noticing a trend... Is there anything you like that HC has done story arc-wise @BurtHutt? 

[Zect]

I enjoyed both of them. I think that your complaints, while mostly valid, are not HC's fault; it was Cryptic's very cryptic decision to make most contact dialogue only visible to the leader.

 

There are some ways in which clever writers can convey the gist of the story even to non-leads, the ITF being a stellar example of such - an attentive player can get the whole story just from NPC dialogue, the mission objectives, and all the nonverbal storytelling going on, such as going through Vespillos Pass (fun fact: vespillo = one who carries out the corpses of the dead at night for burial) to be greeted by the 5th column. However, this will likely not be suitable for conveying fine details.

 

HC's lead writer seems extremely verbose, but I do not feel it is a detriment so far. I liked the Agent Watkins set of storyarcs (for all alignments) very much, and the different dialogue options add replay value; they are on par with my favorite legacy story arcs. When you look at what these missions feature, compared to a lot of legacy arcs which are really just a paragraph of contact dialogue and a couple defeat alls full of trash that just stand around waiting to be massacred - it's no contest, really.

[cranebump]

47 minutes ago, Zect said:

. When you look at what these missions feature, compared to a lot of legacy arcs which are really just a paragraph of contact dialogue and a couple defeat alls full of trash that just stand around waiting to be massacred - it's no contest, really.

Absolutely true. But I think it can also be true that the new arcs are overwritten. Watkins felt like that to me. You get sent on an overmap glowie run that I’m not certain added much value. It felt like a good part of that mish was testing different story mechanics. It was still better than a lot of the older arcs, though. No contest. (But it wasn’t better than Laura Lockhart, Bane Spider Ruben or Stockwell/Eagle Eye, imho).

Edited May 4, 2023 by cranebump

[BurtHutt]

15 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm noticing a trend... Is there anything you like that HC has done story arc-wise @BurtHutt? 

 

I am also noticing trend (?). No, not really. I don't know you but it is odd someone would chime in and be nothing more than a troll. I am here to express how I feel about a game I really like. We're all free to provide feedback and discuss topics and so on. I find it a tad offensive when people post as you did - offer nothing to the thread convo. 

 

However, I guess since you're making this observation, maybe someone else will as well. So let me clarify as I assumed most here were good at comprehension (my mistake). I take no issue with the story. If you look at my posts you'll notice I take issue more with the mechanics especially in a team setting. The HC team has used this same style/format for pretty much all of their arcs. It's unfortunate as I team almost all of the time. I've also repeatedly asked for new or original enemies as we've seen the current factions for years upon years. 

[BurtHutt]

Some great discussion. For those that enjoyed the arc, did you run them solo or on a team? I see @cranebump noted he may not have. Maybe give it a go on a team as well.

 

I do applaud HC for trying to change it up and add more but, in a team setting, it's really not fun.

[lemming]

I've run both arcs now a few times.   Definitely more difficult to convey the story to the team, but a lot of the arcs are like that.  It's a bit better if run with just a couple others via discord, though unlike a TF, very solo friendly arcs.

 

What I like about the arcs are they continue some of the story setups from previous pre-HC days.

 

 

[Arc-Mage]

For me, yes they both felt a bit long winded. 
 

Did they both pay off in the end? Yes, absolutely.  
 

One of the endings for the John Houston arc is laugh out loud hilarious. If you notice the “Homeless Citizen” by the park in Brickstown is no longer appearing there as he now has a full time job. 
 

While the Dr. Stribbling arc is a bit tedious in all of its choices, if you get to the final story it is really good and feels rewarding and not just for the Badge. 

[Glacier Peak]

8 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

 

I am also noticing trend (?). No, not really. I don't know you but it is odd someone would chime in and be nothing more than a troll. I am here to express how I feel about a game I really like. We're all free to provide feedback and discuss topics and so on. I find it a tad offensive when people post as you did - offer nothing to the thread convo. 

 

However, I guess since you're making this observation, maybe someone else will as well. So let me clarify as I assumed most here were good at comprehension (my mistake). I take no issue with the story. If you look at my posts you'll notice I take issue more with the mechanics especially in a team setting. The HC team has used this same style/format for pretty much all of their arcs. It's unfortunate as I team almost all of the time. I've also repeatedly asked for new or original enemies as we've seen the current factions for years upon years. 

I'll ignore the personal remarks and offer my curiosity was on what you consider positive developments in the story arcs as a way to begin a discussion. You described in the original post what you don't like, I thought it was rational to ask what you did like. 

[Xiddo]

I’ve lead on the 40-44 arc probably about six/seven times now. I try to do a “for those not following the story…” each time we start a mission. Mostly because I am chatty.

The reception on the runs has been largely positive, although I don’t ask if people mean the writing, the mobs (there are 3 new factions if you look around), the new maps, where the plot takes us, the challenge, or just “this is new!” when people say “thanks, that was fun!”. Ill

admit people seem to assume the riot mission is the end and quit (Ouro), so maybe it does feel a little long.

On the new factions front: Not long ago I did all of the Wailers arcs redside and 3 people on the team had never met them before. They’re hardly super-used. The new 30-34 arc is fun for them. I think it is fair to show off The Family, their singularities pack a punch now, and not long ago one of the Devs was talking about the future of The Warriors and how they were on the cards to be refreshed. I suspect it is a little bit of a “watch this space”.

 

I run all of my alts through newer content (eg anything added near the end of Live and on HC). I know it is anecdotal, but I quite often get /t from people saying how much they enjoy them. Shauna’s arc where you get the Avenger badge ending, for example, is loved. The writing on these is much less than the Freaklok arcs, and Aeon, I genuinely think they took that feedback on board. Either way, why not get involved with the testing that is done to help this kind of thing? I’m sure a proof reader wouldn’t be sniffed at 🙂 

[BurtHutt]

35 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'll ignore the personal remarks and offer my curiosity was on what you consider positive developments in the story arcs as a way to begin a discussion. You described in the original post what you don't like, I thought it was rational to ask what you did like. 

Well, you seem to be reading my posts so you should know about what I do like. 

 

HC team is doing a great job but I will always ask for them to go outside the box for missions. Are you not a bit tired of seeing the same factions? They add a lot of depth and story but not a format that is friendly for teaming - which is odd for an MMO. I often suggest alternates like use the dialogue box that pop up on screen instead of making it essential to be able to talk to in-mission contacts and the such.

 

I think the Storm Blast power is great. It could use some upgrades on damage but it is visually appealing and a bit different. Initial feedback: I like! 

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

Well, you seem to be reading my posts so you should know about what I do like. 

 

HC team is doing a great job but I will always ask for them to go outside the box for missions. Are you not a bit tired of seeing the same factions? They add a lot of depth and story but not a format that is friendly for teaming - which is odd for an MMO. I often suggest alternates like use the dialogue box that pop up on screen instead of making it essential to be able to talk to in-mission contacts and the such.

 

I think the Storm Blast power is great. It could use some upgrades on damage but it is visually appealing and a bit different. Initial feedback: I like! 

I share that concern, but at the same time I've enjoyed the story depth. I'm constrained, however, by the speed of modern gameplay. Most teams barrel through content because it is just easier to do than when the game was first released. There were natural pauses in gameplay to hit Rest between mobs. There were reasons to wait until everyone had reached the mission door. That sort of thing is hard to plan against in mission development because while the game can still be played that way voluntarily, most teams are not interested in nostalgia trips and want to get through the content as fast as possible.

[BurtHutt]

22 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I share that concern, but at the same time I've enjoyed the story depth. I'm constrained, however, by the speed of modern gameplay. Most teams barrel through content because it is just easier to do than when the game was first released. There were natural pauses in gameplay to hit Rest between mobs. There were reasons to wait until everyone had reached the mission door. That sort of thing is hard to plan against in mission development because while the game can still be played that way voluntarily, most teams are not interested in nostalgia trips and want to get through the content as fast as possible.

Rapid fire teamage is a thing. This is one of the many reasons I keep asking for player created radio/tip/paper type missions created by players using a modified AE system. Those missions would be quick and don't allow for various mechanics to slow a team down. They'd also allow for some fresh, new enemy factions, ideas and so on.

[Lazarillo]

The new Vigilante arc is really good.  I only ran it a couple times on beta, granted, and that was on different characters so I still haven't gotten the "true ending" that comes from repeating it, but overall, I really liked it.  The missions progress fairly naturally, it's an intriguing concept, and feels very "vigilante".  One of HC's better offerings, IMO.

 

The new Rogue arc, I was a little less impressed by, but that might be at least in part because my expectations were really high (HC's best so far, to my way of thinking, was their first Rogue arc).  I absolutely loved the focus on Striga Isle for a good portion of it, but it was kind of messy and disjointed, and has a couple points I rather dislike from a "lore" standpoint.  I still want to try playing it on characters that have met the various cast members in it before, but haven't done that yet.  If there's some acknowledgment of those past encounters, it'd probably scale my appreciation for it up a little bit, I admit.

[Lines]

6 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

HC team is doing a great job but I will always ask for them to go outside the box for missions. Are you not a bit tired of seeing the same factions? They add a lot of depth and story but not a format that is friendly for teaming - which is odd for an MMO. I often suggest alternates like use the dialogue box that pop up on screen instead of making it essential to be able to talk to in-mission contacts and the such.

 

I personally feel that the game is already really saturated with enemy groups, many of them a little under-developed. I'm pretty happy with getting new takes on the same old, but I can totally understand your take as well.

 

I share your feelings about the ways that stories are (and aren't) delivered, but I feel this is more of an interface problem than a writing problem. Even with dialogue caption pop-ups, I'm not sure that CoH has a particularly good way for players to interface with the stories.

[Xiddo]

6 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

Rapid fire teamage is a thing. This is one of the many reasons I keep asking for player created radio/tip/paper type missions created by players using a modified AE system. Those missions would be quick and don't allow for various mechanics to slow a team down. They'd also allow for some fresh, new enemy factions, ideas and so on.

We know you push this idea quite often.. While they may not have said a flat no, there have been other gentle suggestions that they aren’t doing that right now. They have other things on the plate.

 

The 40-44 has the first time we can fight the Freaklok, Hero Corps heroes, and the PNCB (or what ever) actually pose quite a right I’ve found. I imagine they are all going to get fleshed out.

 

7 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I often suggest alternates like use the dialogue box that pop up on screen instead of making it essential to be able to talk to in-mission contacts and the such.

like I said, there are places where this feedback will be considered.  I’m not sure a forum post where you use words like “awful” evoke a lot of listening and motivation.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Xiddo

[starro]

Solo player and content is verbose but that’s ok.  lots of text at times, good god. I kinda love it. 
 

…. However now days and emerging on homecoming: Many many parts of content both new and old you can’t stop and smell the roses or read long dialogue as the team is waiting for you at finish line. 

 

I do agree the flow of dialogue and action on ITF was just so right on so many levels.   Even cut scenes seemed less annoying - but lookin at you Sister Solaris - get to that altar allready!!

[Xiddo]

41 minutes ago, starro said:

Sister Solaris - get to that altar allready!!

Phoebas shines <very slowly> upon you. 

 

[BazookaTwo]

I tried running Houston. Got a striga map within Striga map that confused the heck out of me. I'm the 2nd or 3rd mission I had to bail cause the heroes I was supposed to fight never showed up. 

 

I cleared the whole map of mobs... Nothing. Asked in help and gen chat...nothing.

Petitioned for GM help ..nothing. 

 

Then I quit cause literally no point. 

[lemming]

9 hours ago, BazookaTwo said:

I tried running Houston. Got a striga map within Striga map that confused the heck out of me. I'm the 2nd or 3rd mission I had to bail cause the heroes I was supposed to fight never showed up. 

 

I cleared the whole map of mobs... Nothing. Asked in help and gen chat...nothing.

Petitioned for GM help ..nothing. 

 

Then I quit cause literally no point. 

Did you click the computer?  Once you get the various clues, it blows up and you get the heroes

[BazookaTwo]

23 minutes ago, lemming said:

Did you click the computer?  Once you get the various clues, it blows up and you get the heroes

 

Yes, and then those heroes killed me, and I was unable to get back to the mission. It moved on to another mission, and  as I already explained it was broken. 

[lemming]

13 hours ago, BazookaTwo said:

Yes, and then those heroes killed me, and I was unable to get back to the mission. It moved on to another mission, and  as I already explained it was broken. 

Hmm. That's different than what you said before.  I'll try it out on Beta and see if I can recreate that

[lemming]

Ok, running on the Third Mission where you are in Striga.

Find entrance to Secret Lab, get the codes from the guys standing around, open up hidden area, beat up scientist bodyguards, lead him to open up blastdoor, get info from computer, it blows up, Ravenstorm & Dr Todd show up, but quickly want to parlay

 

Since you said you were beaten up, I chose the Rogue option and let myself get defeated.

Went to Hospital which is in mission, but outside the lab.

I think that's where you got confused.  R & T were still in the lab, but there's no marker showing how to find the entrance, so I had to find it via memory.

Definite should have a marker so one can find it again.

Once found, beat them and any ambushes, then mission proceeds normally.

 

I'll go ahead and write up a bug report for it

[lemming]

Did find a few more things on that mission.

I don't know where your Dr Todd went off to, but I did find the two in separate areas after doing a lot of usual QA stuff.

 

Noted in the bug report