New Staff weapon customisation

[-Kobi-]

Never paid attention before, but Shadow hunter spear (staff fighting skin) is awesome. Would you mind add it in game ?

 

 

[Rudra]

Works for me! Especially if it actually stays in the PC's hands instead of constantly popping back to their back like it does in the Shadow Hunter mission for The Magician.

[biostem]

Valkyrie's spear would also be an awesome option!

 

[TheZag]

If they arent supposed to be unique artifact type weapons that are specific to the character then sure.  I dont know about shadow hunter but i think valkyrie's sword or spear granted her power.

 

[biostem]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

If they arent supposed to be unique artifact type weapons that are specific to the character then sure.  I dont know about shadow hunter but i think valkyrie's sword or spear granted her power.

No reason they couldn't allow the weapon model, but not the unique color scheme they have.  In the case of Valkyrie, all we know is that her spear is of alien origin, not that it was in any way unique.  We can already get carnie masks, Blue Shield's shield, Aeon's gloves, so the precedent exists...

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

No reason they couldn't allow the weapon model, but not the unique color scheme they have.  In the case of Valkyrie, all we know is that her spear is of alien origin, not that it was in any way unique.  We can already get carnie masks, Blue Shield's shield, Aeon's gloves, so the precedent exists...

Valkyrie's spear may not itself be unique, as in there could be more out there somewhere. It is the source of her powers though. We also know it originates from War Earth, home of Battle Maiden, uses nanites to alter its wielder like Battle Maiden's halberd, and is currently the only known one. Like I said, that does not necessarily make it unique, and as a spear, can be made available as a colorable item since I don't think that specific color is available for weapons. So yeah, basically what you said.

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Valkyrie_(Hero)

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 hours ago, TheZag said:

If they arent supposed to be unique artifact type weapons that are specific to the character then sure.  I dont know about shadow hunter but i think valkyrie's sword or spear granted her power.

 

 

Not that I disagree with your opinion,  but this precedent has already been set with things like Nictus-Rommy's shield and sword being available. 

[TheZag]

Its not a set in stone rule,  but in general,  most signature NPCs with unique items arent made available to players.  We got aeon gloves when the gold brickers got them which made them not unique.  There are about a million carnie masks so those were never unique.  Cool NPC stuff does get made available and if shadow hunters spear is just cool looking spear and not cool looking spear of 1 of a kind magical artifact forged in the heart of a dying star and can never be remade,  then sure.

 

[Rigged]

This idea that NPC items have to be unique to them is very silly. None of us, in the real world, are superheroes or have magic or super-tech, but in the real world we are perfectly capable of recreating the appearance of whatever the heck we want, and amateur cosplayers do it all the time. If, in the real world, I wanted to make a spear that looked exactly like Valkyrie's or Shadow Hunter's, or even crap like Statesman's faceplate, I definitely could. Let alone the methods available to actual superheroes inside our game, with access to exotic materials, equipment, tools, and magic. If my character wanted a shawl that looked like Swan's they would be able to sew one with little trouble.

 

For that matter, in our game lore there is no such thing as one-of-a-kind. We have alternate dimensions, and there are an infinite number of them, including an infinite number of alternate versions of an alternate dimension. It is not a small part of the game, either, being 90% of the lvl 50 content (Praetorians, Shadow Shard, Rikti, and probably more that I have forgotten) and an entire expansion. I could find a spear that is from an alternate War Earth where Valkyrie tripped on a rock and cracked her skull open before popping into ours. Whoops, I'm the m*********g Valkyrie now. Heck I don't even have to go that far. Since my characters are mostly villains, I could go to that alternate dimension and murder the NPC for their costume. Heck I could go to lots of War Earths and murder alternate Valkyries until I found a spear that was blue.

 

Stop worshipping the NPCs. They are set dressing and not important, and in fact many of the so-called iconic characters like certain members of the Vindicators barely have a backstory or screen time, making them even less important. The most important characters are our player characters, and in fact we are the only important characters ever since the game died and the NPCs are no longer the avatars of the original developers. The only reasons we should pass on a costume item is if it is difficult to port to players on a technical level or for quality control, not because some jumped-up bit extra has to look oh-so unique.

 

And because I know some naysayer (we all know who they are) is going to say, "Oh it'd be lame if we can use the same stuff as the NPC", my response is, "Yeah well, that's just like your opinion, man". 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Rigged

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Rigged said:

I could find a spear that is from an alternate War Earth where Valkyrie tripped on a rock and cracked her skull open before popping into ours. Whoops, I'm the m*********g Valkyrie now. Heck I don't even have to go that far. Since my characters are mostly villains, I could go to that alternate dimension and murder the NPC for their costume. Heck I could go to lots of War Earths and murder alternate Valkyries until I found a spear that was blue.

One problem with that. War Earth, like Praetorian Earth, Council Empire Earth, Primal Earth, et al. are unique dimensions that make up the City of Heroes multiverse. So no, you can't go to an Alternate War Earth where Valkyrie fell and cracked her skull open. Because Valkyrie is a Primal Earth person that found a War Earth weapon on Primal Earth. Now, there can be other dimensions where nanite-based weapons that look like primitive weapons exist just like they do on what's left of War Earth, and there can be more spears like what Valkyrie uses just waiting to be found on War Earth itself or even on Primal Earth or other realities where they wound up in those locations as mysteriously as Valkyrie's spear did on Primal Earth, but you won't find an alternate War Earth.

 

23 minutes ago, Rigged said:

This idea that NPC items have to be unique to them is very silly. None of us, in the real world, are superheroes or have magic or super-tech, but in the real world we are perfectly capable of recreating the appearance of whatever the heck we want, and amateur cosplayers do it all the time. If, in the real world, I wanted to make a spear that looked exactly like Valkyrie's or Shadow Hunter's, or even crap like Statesman's faceplate, I definitely could. Let alone the methods available to actual superheroes inside our game, with access to exotic materials, equipment, tools, and magic. If my character wanted a shawl that looked like Swan's they would be able to sew one with little trouble.

And in the real world, players making characters that are true replications of fictional characters in games of the same genre claiming to be those characters have resulted in law suits of the game owner(s) for copyright infringement. And if super heroes were real, I'm willing to bet there would be an entire law industry on suing people pretending to be those super heroes. (Except for villains who would probably just kill the impersonator and be done.)

 

16 minutes ago, Rigged said:

Stop worshipping the NPCs.

No one is worshipping the NPCs. However, some of us remember why the devs back on Live refused to provide specific costume pieces despite us players asking for them. And that was so that we couldn't make characters like those NPCs. I don't know if the HC devs hold to the line of reasoning, but until we get clarification stating otherwise, some of us choose to run on the possibility that the Live devs reason still holds true.

 

19 minutes ago, Rigged said:

They are set dressing and not important, and in fact many of the so-called iconic characters like certain members of the Vindicators barely have a backstory or screen time, making them even less important

Considering more than half the player characters I see also lack a back story and are only briefly on my screen, let alone actually doing anything, the same could be said of player characters by that logic.

 

What it boils down to is the request is being made, but because of previous dev arguments, we don't know if unique NPC costume pieces will be made available to us. And that is a large part of the conversation.

[Rigged]

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

One problem with that. War Earth, like Praetorian Earth, Council Empire Earth, Primal Earth, et al. are unique dimensions that make up the City of Heroes multiverse. So no, you can't go to an Alternate War Earth where Valkyrie fell and cracked her skull open. Because Valkyrie is a Primal Earth person that found a War Earth weapon on Primal Earth. Now, there can be other dimensions where nanite-based weapons that look like primitive weapons exist just like they do on what's left of War Earth, and there can be more spears like what Valkyrie uses just waiting to be found on War Earth itself or even on Primal Earth or other realities where they wound up in those locations as mysteriously as Valkyrie's spear did on Primal Earth, but you won't find an alternate War Earth.

 

You are just being pedantic for the sake of it. You know exactly what I mean. Even if we accept your idea that there are a limited number of alternate dimensions (I have no desire to debate lore with you), there is no such thing as one-of-a-kind items in an infinite multiverse. 

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And in the real world, players making characters that are true replications of fictional characters in games of the same genre claiming to be those characters have resulted in law suits of the game owner(s) for copyright infringement. And if super heroes were real, I'm willing to bet there would be an entire law industry on suing people pretending to be those super heroes. (Except for villains who would probably just kill the impersonator and be done.)

 

Perhaps you should tell the Flash about the case he has against Professor Zoom, I'm sure that'll work out. Even in the comic book genre, characters rip each other off constantly.

 

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No one is worshipping the NPCs. However, some of us remember why the devs back on Live refused to provide specific costume pieces despite us players asking for them. And that was so that we couldn't make characters like those NPCs. I don't know if the HC devs hold to the line of reasoning, but until we get clarification stating otherwise, some of us choose to run on the possibility that the Live devs reason still holds true.

 

You are free to inform the current players of the old reasons but there is literally no reason we have to adhere to them. Saying "No we can't change it because maybe the HC devs want to keep the same old rule as Live" is not a valid refutation. The entire point of the suggestion forum is so we can make our case to the HC devs why a silly rule like this should be abolished.

 

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Considering more than half the player characters I see also lack a back story and are only briefly on my screen, let alone actually doing anything, the same could be said of player characters by that logic.

 

 

Well, that's a very interesting admission that you consider every other player's experience to be unimportant, on par with NPCs. That response does explain your "If it isn't something that I want personally I'll /jranger it" attitude towards everything in this forum. 

 

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What it boils down to is the request is being made, but because of previous dev arguments, we don't know if unique NPC costume pieces will be made available to us. And that is a large part of the conversation.

 

Yes that's what a suggestion forum is actually for.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Rigged

[Rudra]

39 minutes ago, Rigged said:

You are just being pedantic for the sake of it. You know exactly what I mean. Even if we accept your idea that there are a limited number of alternate dimensions (I have no desire to debate lore with you), there is no such thing as one-of-a-kind items in an infinite multiverse. 

All I am saying is that Portal Corp will do their best to give every discovered dimension a unique name so they know quickly which world they are dealing with. As opposed to War Earth, Alternate War Earth, Different War Earth, Other War Earth, and so on. Take the Nemesis arc where you have to investigate three dimensions he conquered. The one where he blocked out the sun would probably be called Sunless Earth because that still differentiates it from Warwolf Earth. The one where he forcibly addicted the entire world to Superadine would probably be called Troll Earth because everyone not in the Nemesis Army is a Troll. So on and so forth.

 

39 minutes ago, Rigged said:

 

Perhaps you should tell the Flash about the case he has against Professor Zoom, I'm sure that'll work out. Even in the comic book genre, characters rip each other off constantly.

Funny how even there they use different names and costumes. Silver Age Flash, Flash, Professor Zoom.

 

39 minutes ago, Rigged said:

 

Well, that's a very interesting admission that you consider every other player's experience to be unimportant, on par with NPCs. That response does explain your "If it isn't something that I want personally I'll /jranger it" attitude towards everything in this forum. 

I did in that statement was point out how your own argument could be used against player characters as well. You're really reaching here with that comment. (Edit again: Also, you do realize I am one of the voices in favor of the OP?)

 

39 minutes ago, Rigged said:

 

Yes that's what a suggestion forum is actually for.

Which is the point I was making. A suggestion was made. Then it was expanded. So players are debating about whether or not the old rule still applies, because unless we are told otherwise by the current devs, it is what we have to go on. (Edit: Not as in we are required to, but what we have available.)

Edited June 6, 2023 by Rudra

[Rigged]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

All I am saying

 

Thank you for confirming that you solely want to argue for the sake of arguing and not to actually discuss the point. As I said, I have no desire to discuss lore with you.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Funny how even there they use different names and costumes. Silver Age Flash, Flash, Professor Zoom.

 

 

Oh well, that's not a problem then, since we can't use any NPC supers' names!

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I did in that statement was point out how your own argument could be used against player characters as well. You're really reaching here with that comment. (Edit again: Also, you do realize I am one of the voices in favor of the OP?)

 

 

Not at all. The only way you think it could apply to player characters is if you consider players and their experiences no more important than the unintelligent NPCs. Because players see their own characters a lot more often than "briefly on your screen".

 

Also, whether you are in favor of the OP does not change what I said about you /jrangering everything you do not have personal interest in.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Which is the point I was making. A suggestion was made. Then it was expanded. So players are debating about whether or not the old rule still applies, because unless we are told otherwise by the current devs, it is what we have to go on. (Edit: Not as in we are required to, but what we have available.)

 

And I am saying that the old rule isn't relevant because the HC devs don't have the same direct connection with the NPCs the way that Positron was literally Matt Miller's old Champions character. In any case, the HC devs clearly did not object to adding Infernal's Axe to the available weapons along with the once-forbidden Malaise colors. Perhaps they made special exceptions for those, but it's more likely that the actual restriction on adding more pieces is either technical difficulty or quality control, issues that the two mentioned staves do not suffer (since neither axe nor pattern require color customization or adapting to body shapes, being a weapon and texture respectively). This can be overcome, but it's man-hours they have to prioritize.

 

Although for all we know maybe they are saving these spears for a future x/x/spear epic (hero patron) power pool. Valkyrie does after all have a neato spear-throwing animation to hijack.

[TheZag]

Fun one about malaise costume parts being available,  someone was asking for the top and bottom pattern to line up and the response was that is supposed to be a dev only costume part.  And if i find the post where a dev said we only got the aeon gloves because they were no longer unique to a signature npc,  ill link it.  That indicates to me that the current devs are less likely to make all npc items automatically available.

 

[JasperStone]

I like the idea of a colorable version.

I just did the Odysseus arc ...The Fists of Vulcan would be nice

[Yomo Kimyata]

Domingator approves.

[Aracknight]

10 hours ago, Rigged said:

 

 

Also, whether you are in favor of the OP does not change what I said about you /jrangering everything you do not have personal interest in.

 

+1

 

Whether by accident or design, and without pointing a finger at a single being, there is a lot of fucking gatekeeping on this specific forum.  If you don't like an idea, say that.  It's not helpful to my or anyone else's day or experience for any of you to go above and beyond with a thousand word screed about how an idea is conpletely out of the question based on your personal knowledge of how things were, are, and allegedly should be.

 

Sometimes ideas are a little overpowered.  Sometimes they aren't. Sometimes they are workable.  Sometimes they aren't.  But I would wager most ideas on this forum come from a place of excitement and love for the game and don't deserve to be shit on in the fashion that some of you are so adept at in the name of the preservation of your enforced internal logic.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Aracknight

[Rudra]

When someone disagrees with a suggestion, they are not going to chime in and say "Yes! Do it!". They will say "No". Sometimes they even give an explanation as to why they are saying no. That gives others the means to give counter-arguments as to why it should be "yes" instead, and maybe even though not likely change the opinions of the individual(s) saying no. Either way, it gives the devs more food for thought and more viewpoints to consider. That is the nature of a forum.

 

And since this is obviously going to be another overly long argument, I'm dropping out of it. I tried to give clarification on something someone said, and it started yet another argument. And more so than previous ones, it is a pointless one.

 

Back on the OP? Yes, if the devs are willing, getting access to some of the other spear weapons in the game for player use would be nice.

[Aracknight]

Either way it's fucking toxic.

 

 

OP, yeah, unlock the spear.  Unlock everything.  I don't need logic to tell me shit about it.  If legendary mythic unique goddamn Excalibur is available to literally everyone with titan, ninja, katana, or broad sword, then some dinky npc's spear (or anything else, for that matter) should be good to go.

[megaericzero]

I'm of the opinion that NPCs having unique costume pieces is alright as long as players have access to generic alternatives. How broad or how specific that gets can vary. In this case, a staff with a symmetrical spearhead in place of Shadowhunter's or a javelin in place of Valkyrie's would be fine.

 

So +0.5 to this suggestion?

[Vanden]

I happen to think that Shadow Hunter's spear is quite ugly, and not up to the current quality standards for player costumes. The head of the spear is a completely flat, low-res 2d texture. That might be passable for a rarely-encountered enemy mob who wouldn't stand still long enough for you to see it when he was first introduced, but its flaws would be plain to see as a player costume option, not to mention the actual NPC now that he wears it on his back.

[FupDup]

Counterfeits of relics and weapons exist in real life, so I see no reason why they couldn't exist in the costume creator either. Unless that means we're going to remove Tech Wired costume pieces just because Positron has them (in a unique color). 

 

I think there might even be at least one radio/newspaper mission about something like that? I don't remember, but the point still stands. 

[TheZag]

Certainly copies and counterfeits exist in the real world,  but we are playing a comic book super hero game.  Much less often do you see generic copies of the heroes special gear in use in the comics.  Its also not the legal system so precedent doesnt mean much either.  Ive mostly seen the current devs leave the unique npc stuff in reserved status so we should consider it an uphill climb to convince them otherwise.  We have X so give us Y might not be enough to crest the hill.  At least if i was a dev it wouldnt convince me.

 

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Certainly copies and counterfeits exist in the real world,  but we are playing a comic book super hero game.  Much less often do you see generic copies of the heroes special gear in use in the comics.  Its also not the legal system so precedent doesnt mean much either.  Ive mostly seen the current devs leave the unique npc stuff in reserved status so we should consider it an uphill climb to convince them otherwise.  We have X so give us Y might not be enough to crest the hill.  At least if i was a dev it wouldnt convince me.

You can't directly compare comic books to how things would need to be implemented in a game.  That being said, there exist precedent, like how Taskmaster has knockoffs of various heroes' weapons.  Further, no one is asking for the ability to directly copy a signature character's entire look.  Allowing access to Valkyrie's spear weapon model, only without its unique coloration, doesn't mean you actually have Valkyrie's spear.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, FupDup said:

Counterfeits of relics and weapons exist in real life, so I see no reason why they couldn't exist in the costume creator either. Unless that means we're going to remove Tech Wired costume pieces just because Positron has them (in a unique color). 

 

I think there might even be at least one radio/newspaper mission about something like that? I don't remember, but the point still stands. 

Yep, counterfeits do exist in real life. And there are laws against them in real life too.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2320

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1704-trademark-counterfeiting-elements-18-usc-2320

https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCODE-2011-title18/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap113-sec2320/summary

 

And for outside the US:

https://www.unodc.org/documents/counterfeit/FocusSheet/Counterfeit_focussheet_EN_HIRES.pdf

https://www.worldtrademarkreview.com/global-guide/anti-counterfeiting-and-online-brand-enforcement/2017/article/international-anti-counterfeiting-legislation-existing-regime-and-future-developments

 

So if the argument is that we have counterfeits, so we should have counterfeits, then the argument is borked. Because our law enforcement lacks things like mind reading, time travel, and other super powers to track down counterfeiting operations. So that argument can be flushed.

 

Why not just leave it at spears are not unique, so can we please have them? Even if a specific weapon in a game is unique to the character, like Valkyrie's spear might be but probably isn't, the model itself is just a spear. I can make a character right now that has a broadsword in the game that is completely unique. It did not originate from any part of the City of Heroes multiverse so it has no cross multiverse duplicate to be found anywhere. And yet that model is available for other characters to be a generic broadsword, a magic broadsword, an artifact broadsword, or whatever. Valkyrie's spear can have its unique color, at least I think hers is not a color we have access to, and still be unique to her.