Better Empathy

[Hopestar]

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Hopestar
newest version

[Saiyajinzoningen]

how dare you make support classes useful again! 😉

[Parabola]

This is all blurry for me (and I don't think it's my eyes!). From what I can see this looks a bit overboard on the buffs though. Turning everything into aoe isn't going to happen.

[Rudra]

Some questions:

Magnanimity: Why would sympathizing with your enemies inflict penalties on them?

Clear Mind: This is already a very good power, so why does it need a +DEF component added to it?

Aggrandize: To aggrandize something is to widen its scope, size, or intensity, or to make something appear greater. So why is it also lowering enemies' resistance and defense on top of enhancing allies' movement and maximum hit points?

Why is everything an AoE? 7 of 9 are 25 feet radius effects while two are 15 feet radius effects?

 

Basically, the proposed new Empathy set seems way overpowered to me. And that is even before we get to my traditional "you are taking away powers others are using" argument in the form of Heal Other. (Everything else just looks like they got rolled into combined powers instead of the individual powers they currently are, and then made even more powerful on top of that.)

[Hopestar]

16 minutes ago, Parabola said:

This is all blurry for me (and I don't think it's my eyes!). From what I can see this looks a bit overboard on the buffs though. Turning everything into aoe isn't going to happen.

Sorry, just have to zoom in a couple times due to how it shows in the forum.

Autocasting the AOEs and doing nothing else seems to be the way most Empathy players want it, so I embraced it for them.

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Some questions:

Magnanimity: Why would sympathizing with your enemies inflict penalties on them?

Clear Mind: This is already a very good power, so why does it need a +DEF component added to it?

Aggrandize: To aggrandize something is to widen its scope, size, or intensity, or to make something appear greater. So why is it also lowering enemies' resistance and defense on top of enhancing allies' movement and maximum hit points?

Why is everything an AoE? 7 of 9 are 25 feet radius effects while two are 15 feet radius effects?

 

Basically, the proposed new Empathy set seems way overpowered to me. And that is even before we get to my traditional "you are taking away powers others are using" argument in the form of Heal Other. (Everything else just looks like they got rolled into combined powers instead of the individual powers they currently are, and then made even more powerful on top of that.)

Let me try to answer some:
Magnanimity: I don't know, maybe the description could be better.
Clear Mind: DEF was moved from Fortitude for level balance.
Aggrandize: Again maybe there's a better way to name or word it, but "to make something appear greater" making your allies faster and enemies feel weaker. Basically just needed something extra to boost the set where it otherwise falls into "recommend Pain, Thermal, and Nature over it" without it.

"Why is everything an AoE? 7 of 9 are 25 feet radius effects while two are 15 feet radius effects?"
Yes 25' PBAOE on everything might be a little overtuned, but autocasting the AOEs and doing nothing else seems to be the way most Empathy players want it, so I embraced it for them. 2 are 15 feet because 1 affects enemies, and 1 affects downed allies, 15 is just the norm for those.
As far as Heal Other, Recovery, and Regeneration Aura, I think I can safely say they are definitely relics of ancient days when the set originally appeared, just like Medic Power Pool.

Good feedback so far. 👍

[Akisan]

Since the trade for "everything is AoE" is usually "everything is weaker", definite no thanks.  Plus, have to agree with @Rudra here - losing signature set powers is always rough, and I know I'll miss being able to instantly top off a critical HP Tank with Absorb Pain (plus, you know, I use Heal Other pretty often, so...)

 

That said, Clear Mind could really use the AoE treatment that a lot of other buffs got - it's very tedious trying to keep a team of 7 other squishies mez-free. I'd also campaign for Absorb Pain to temporarily reduce Max HP instead of preventing you from being healed (similar effect - you're still down that much HP, just implemented in a much less punishing manner). It's so obnoxious to save another defender from a loose boss, then die to that same boss because I can't be healed anymore.  That, and I've noticed that I tend to get heals tossed my way after casting it (so heals we probably needed elsewhere got wasted).

 

9 hours ago, Hopestar said:

Autocasting the AOEs and doing nothing else seems to be the way most Empathy players want it, so I embraced it for them.

 

Please no.  Auto-casting your AoEs and then forgetting about the rest of the set is a huge waste of potential.  Fort and AB are two of the best buffs in the game, and an outmatched team can require near-constant casting of the 3 heals. 

 

I think the main problem people have with Empathy is this: it can bring a crumbling team together, and make them shine, but won't really make a good team roll harder (compared with, say, Kinetics, which is typically the opposite - a good team becomes unstoppable, but a weak team still has problems.)  And in the current meta, teams usually start at "good", and go up from there - they don't really need the extra healing/recovery, and the more typical buff/debuff sets are usually better. (Similar to why Force Field isn't in a good spot - most end-game builds don't need more +def)

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Akisan
Clarity/Grammar/typos

[Hopestar]

Taking your feedback into account, I created an updated version. Perhaps we can all agree on something that is both an improvement and still has what you want?

[JasperStone]

Struggling with

1. Aggrandize - feels like it belongs a s written in Illusion set, making your team bigger and better causing illusory damage
2.  Magnanimity ...... not sure how I see this causes -tohit to the enemy seems like it would effects your team...

[Hopestar]

I don't know better words or descriptions to go with those 2, it's mostly for the effects themselves. The plan here is just to make Empathy a powerset that is finally competitive with Pain, let alone the level of Nature and Thermal. Right now, it's unanimously the worst of supporting power sets.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

12 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

I don't know better words or descriptions to go with those 2, it's mostly for the effects themselves. The plan here is just to make Empathy a powerset that is finally competitive with Pain, let alone the level of Nature and Thermal. Right now, it's unanimously the worst of supporting power sets.

 

There is a distinct lack of support classes in general. Improving buff/debuffs on these AT's will make them more appealing and more useful in the current city of DPS

[Akisan]

On 6/7/2023 at 11:40 AM, Hopestar said:

Taking your feedback into account, I created an updated version. Perhaps we can all agree on something that is both an improvement and still has what you want?

 

Better than that absorb barrier, though Heal Other's more consistantly useful (and a higher priority pick) vs. Absorb Pain (a very useful, but also situational power). 

 

As far as Magnanimtity & Aggrandize - they're an interesting take on getting your foes to empathize with you (and thus, not fight as hard), but could easily fall into some of the problems that other debuffs have: by the time you cast them in a regular fight, that fight's winding down.  Well, assuming you didn't neglect your green buff duties to cast them. 

 

One of the nice things that Empathy does have going for it now is that it's mostly 60sec+ buffs, so you can cast stuff *before* the fight starts, freeing you up to either heal, blast, mez, w/e during the fight (which is good, because it's a click-heavy, reactive powerset). 

 

For Resurrect - The 2 sets that have AoE rezzes (Dark and Electrical) have trade-offs to make them AoE: Dark requires an enemy be nearby, and Electrical requires you to be in melee range.  The other sets that have rezzes have side effects; either not fully topping off the rezzed player, or causing some weakness effect after 90s.  Having a "free", no strings attached rez is nice (and kinda makes sense, as this set is/was the basic, no-frills, "intro to support ATs" set).  I'm not sure how much I'd sacrifice to make that power AoE, though I'd be ok with it having a shorter cooldown instead.

[JasperStone]

7 hours ago, Akisan said:

 

Better than that absorb barrier, though Heal Other's more consistantly useful (and a higher priority pick) vs. Absorb Pain (a very useful, but also situational power). 

 

As far as Magnanimtity & Aggrandize - they're an interesting take on getting your foes to empathize with you (and thus, not fight as hard), but could easily fall into some of the problems that other debuffs have: by the time you cast them in a regular fight, that fight's winding down.  Well, assuming you didn't neglect your green buff duties to cast them. 

 

One of the nice things that Empathy does have going for it now is that it's mostly 60sec+ buffs, so you can cast stuff *before* the fight starts, freeing you up to either heal, blast, mez, w/e during the fight (which is good, because it's a click-heavy, reactive powerset). 

 

For Resurrect - The 2 sets that have AoE rezzes (Dark and Electrical) have trade-offs to make them AoE: Dark requires an enemy be nearby, and Electrical requires you to be in melee range.  The other sets that have rezzes have side effects; either not fully topping off the rezzed player, or causing some weakness effect after 90s.  Having a "free", no strings attached rez is nice (and kinda makes sense, as this set is/was the basic, no-frills, "intro to support ATs" set).  I'm not sure how much I'd sacrifice to make that power AoE, though I'd be ok with it having a shorter cooldown instead.

For the OP:

don't misunderstand my questioning some of the changes.

My first character on Live and my forum namesake 🙂 was an Emp/Elec 

Always wanted a bit more of the primary to effect me.

 

The highlight wording works better for me.

[Hopestar]

12 hours ago, Akisan said:

 

Better than that absorb barrier, though Heal Other's more consistantly useful (and a higher priority pick) vs. Absorb Pain (a very useful, but also situational power). 

 

As far as Magnanimtity & Aggrandize - they're an interesting take on getting your foes to empathize with you (and thus, not fight as hard), but could easily fall into some of the problems that other debuffs have: by the time you cast them in a regular fight, that fight's winding down.  Well, assuming you didn't neglect your green buff duties to cast them. 

 

One of the nice things that Empathy does have going for it now is that it's mostly 60sec+ buffs, so you can cast stuff *before* the fight starts, freeing you up to either heal, blast, mez, w/e during the fight (which is good, because it's a click-heavy, reactive powerset). 

 

For Resurrect - The 2 sets that have AoE rezzes (Dark and Electrical) have trade-offs to make them AoE: Dark requires an enemy be nearby, and Electrical requires you to be in melee range.  The other sets that have rezzes have side effects; either not fully topping off the rezzed player, or causing some weakness effect after 90s.  Having a "free", no strings attached rez is nice (and kinda makes sense, as this set is/was the basic, no-frills, "intro to support ATs" set).  I'm not sure how much I'd sacrifice to make that power AoE, though I'd be ok with it having a shorter cooldown instead.

I think Absorb Pain can function just fine with a working Regeneration Aura that isn't impossible to perma, along with your Healing Aura basically being able to negate the self damage at later levels, the -100% regeneration and -100% healing debuffs needed to go though as they're a quick way for you to kill yourself as the support, which is silly.

Debuffs may have this issue in fast teams, but this is a mainly buff/heal set, so that's fine for them to not be relevant except for bosses or teams where your healing is needed far and few between. I know a lot of people mainly play low level and slow leveling content, but the set needs to be competitive for all levels of content like ones where your healing is only keeping people topped off and you're not just there to cast Clear Mind and AB and be a worse Blaster.

One of the main reasons I made most things 120s was of this, allowing you to just cast all your buffs at once and focus on allowing new players to focus on staying alive while casting and learning how to manage buff timers without something constantly blinking. Despite grouping both RAs into 1, hopefully these changes [and the powerset being changed (a feeling of it being new again) in general] would help remove the mindset of "autocast and follow".

I considered the AoE Rez being free a boon of being the newbie healing set that shouldn't need a sacrifice, but maybe it is a bit too much.

[SupaFreak]

I just want to add a comment saying I agree Empathy (and Pain Domination) should get PBAoE "Break-Free" type power with a moderately long recharge and higher endurance cost... here being "Clear Mind".  I also wouldn't be opposed to the R-Auras being combined into a "Rejuvenation Aura" encompassing them both.  Let Pain Domination stand out by being the one that can affect enemies... keep Empathy to best Ally heal set.  Just my feedback.

[Herotu]

On 6/7/2023 at 4:14 AM, Akisan said:

Since the trade for "everything is AoE" is usually "everything is weaker", definite no thanks.  

Oooh there's a fascinating snippet to play with... what if... <wobbly wavy line transition into imagined scene>

 

What if there was an enhancement that changed a single target ability into an AoE but made it weaker, and one that took an AoE power and made it single target but stronger?

 

OR what if some powersets let you switch them around, like switching bullets in Dual Pistols?

 

OR what if some powersets had one type and one or more of their equivalent(s) had the other type? (I guess this already happens to some extent?, I don't pay attention).

[Oklahoman]

I've wished someone would look at Empathy again since Live, but I don't think anyone ever will. Honestly, if they would just change Resurrect to work more like what you suggest, I would call it good enough. I feel like Empathy rez should be the best in game.

[Hopestar]

Likely not since judging by the amount of thumbs down over thumbs up, very few people in the forums actually want it to change for the better or at all. I'm sure they'd love it for the game to be the same as it was on launch.

Some people have given some constructive criticism and that's great, but I feel like the majority of people here just downvote despite having no way to support their actions.

It's no wonder "it was a forum build" is a running joke. If the people that actually cared about the game like they say they do actually cared enough to look at the powers and what they do, they might see differently. But until they can even give the time of day to even look at City of Data, the forums will forever be a joke.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Hopestar
tired

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, Hopestar said:

Likely not since judging by the amount of thumbs down over thumbs up, very few people in the forums actually want it to change for the better or at all. I'm sure they'd love it for the game to be the same as it was on launch.

Some people have given some constructive criticism and that's great, but I feel like the majority of people here just downvote despite having no way to support their actions.

It's no wonder "it was a forum build" is a running joke. If the people that actually cared about the game like they say they do actually cared enough to look at the powers and what they do, they might see differently. But until they can even give the time of day to even look at City of Data, the forums will forever be a joke.

 

same ole, same ole

humans crave new experiences while simultaneously hating change, meanwhile both are mutually exclusive. 

I wouldn't call the forums a joke per se because the Devs do monitor and even occasionally respond to requests to explain why or why not something is possible.

Its impossible to know what suggestions the devs will or will not incorporate in the future.

Just shoot your shot and enjoy the game.

 

[TheZag]

Its a hard product to sell when a proposed change removes existing powers that players are using and have built around.  Often its easier to make even more changes and propose an entirely new set instead of moderately revamping an existing one.

 

[MoonSheep]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:20 PM, Rudra said:

Some questions:

Magnanimity: Why would sympathizing with your enemies inflict penalties on them?

 

because they realise they’ve been overreacting and are now deeply embarrassed

 

edit: tough crowd 😛

Edited June 19, 2023 by MoonSheep

[MoonSheep]

alternate title: better empathy players

 

a great PvP style empath on a team paired with a high damage output alt is a really effective combination, especially when speeding a TF or trial

[Saiyajinzoningen]

6 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

alternate title: better empathy players

 

a great PvP style empath on a team paired with a high damage output alt is a really effective combination, especially when speeding a TF or trial

 

Fair enough. Get more skilled is a totally valid suggestion.

however I am far past my gaming prime. 

My concentration is shot

My reflexes are shot

My memory is shot

While i am not suggesting we lower the bar to accommodate the rapidly aging population. I also don't want to struggle to play *cough kheldians cough*

 

The way i see it there are only 3 possible options

 

1. Keep the game pure. Change nothing. experience the way it was when it ended. 

2. Improve things. Powers, quests, costumes. 

3. Scorched Nerf. For the sake of the balance NERF IT ALL!

 

Option 1 will be a slow death for this game.

Option 2 is treading water.

Option 3 is fast death.

[Indystruck]

On 6/6/2023 at 12:20 PM, Rudra said:

Some questions:

Clear Mind: This is already a very good power, so why does it need a +DEF component added to it?

 

with the exception of sonic resonance (which is just a clear mind clone, except they get theirs as like the t8 power, making it worse overall), every other powerset with a de-mez power has one that's useful in more situations and the real crime, more interesting, with the only real trade off in exchange for much more overall utility (some have AoE, +resistance(both in debuff and in damage), and more in the same power) being that they aren't mez protection to all, just most.

 

Frankly I think clear mind could just get an AoE component to it and call it a day (edit: call it a day for clear mind, not for empathy overall, to be clear), just increase the recharge time or something to compensate. this will make it worse in exactly the one niche current situation where someone is trying to not be held by ghost widow, and that's about it

Edited June 24, 2023 by Indystruck