Less restrictive Power Pools & additional enhancement slots

[Raikao]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:27 PM, Aracknight said:

But the suggestion forum cartel convey the appearance, whether intentional or not, that they are protecting the game from our wild ideas because it will destroy everything, and that zeal comea across as unwelcoming, and has a tone that contains "no, stupid.  Because we said so.  Because we know better than you.  Because your idea is so bad, it will literally lead to the destruction of the game.  If you don't like it, leave "

 

And thats fucked up.  And thats why some of you have, whether earned or unearned, gotten the reputations that you have.  You make me not want to log into the forums.  You make me not want to test on the beta.  You make me want to not log in to the game.

 

 

Do have to agree with this sentiment. However it only seems to be present on the forums so far. On Discord and ingame I've only had pleasent experiences.

 

 

[Rudra]

49 minutes ago, Raikao said:

 

I want a conversation. Why are you saying my "are you playing on -1" is insulting? I literally started my post saying we seem to be playing different games.

My experience is not the same as yours. Obviously. Wtf is up with all this vitriol on these forums?

It is the assumption that because I said the game was easy and your response was to ask if I lowered the difficulty to minimum to be able to say that. The implication that a player can and would only play at minimum difficulty in order to say something is easy is what makes that statement insulting.

 

(Edit: For clarification, you did not ask "what difficulty are you playing at?", you asked "Are you playing at -1?", portraying the assumption whether intentional or not that others obviously must be playing at minimum difficulty in order to be saying the game is already very easy.)

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to rewrite a significant portion of the edit.

[Raikao]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It is the assumption that because I said the game was easy and your response was to ask if I lowered the difficulty to minimum to be able to say that. The implication that a player can and would only play at minimum difficulty in order to say something is easy is what makes that statement insulting.

 

(Edit: For clarification, you did not ask "what difficulty are you playing at?", you asked "Are you playing at -1?", portraying the assumption whether intentional or not that others obviously must be playing at minimum difficulty in order to be saying the game is already very easy.)

 

 

Not if you read my entire post. I literally give an example of running through Praetoria on -1/1 since I wanted to have an easier time. I'm referring to my own experience with the diffculty setting. I'm pointing out my disbelief in the game being easy UNLESS one purposely lowers the difficulty.

 

The intent was not to be smug towards someone going "oh you just play on easy then cause you suck". That should also be clear from other comments I made, where I specifically call out such behavior of dismissing someone's opinion cause "they suck at the game" or "don't know the game" or "are stupid".

 

And if anything my point still stands. If the game is easy on 0/1, put it on +1/0 or any other higher difficulty until you personally with your skillset and build feel challenged.

 

What I don't get is what the baseline difficulty is, that we're supposedly balancing the game around.

[Raikao]

On 8/12/2023 at 4:53 AM, Zect said:

There were already 5 thumbs down by the time I came round to add mine. Great work, everyone!

 

For the OP, I suggest exploring build design principles a little. Once you're more familiar with the constraints that builds operate under, you'll appreciate a lot more why this change would be significantly imbalancing.

 

I don't. Now what?

 

It annoys me from a thematic standpoint, it's an unfun design to me. And again: I don't care about tough/weave at all. I want to have SuperSpeed, Combat Teleport and Group Fly.

 

That's what I truly care about. After reading through replies I can see how just adding more slots (by adding more overall or by giving slots to Health&Stamine autmatically) would be powercreep.

 

So I got convinced there by those who engaged in faithful conversation.

 

But "you have to have punch/kick for tough/weave" doesn't make any sense, when restrictions exactly liek this have been lifted or changed everywhere else. I can skip a T1 in my secondary, I can get travel powers earlier. But I can't get GroupFly without TWO pre-requisits. It's not even an optimal pick. I just want to give my robots some rocketbots like once every 2 hours of playtime, because I want to avoid pulling something or have to fight in a giant room and don't want them to fall and jump all over the place.

 

I would be picking this over Assault. I'm nerfing myself. But I have to take shit from some people here because they think it'll ruin the game. Because how they play is the only way anyone plays. Yes, you could swap out Kick for something else and make your char stronger. But you can already to that in 50 different ways.

 

We don't even have a baseline difficulty for our arguments, one guy plays on 0/1 and thinks it'll ruin the game, someone else does +2/4 and the next person does +4/8 and challenge modes solo. But a few are so sure of their opinions they resort to insults, smug statement and just all around being complete forum tyrants and assholes.

 

This isn't aimed at you, but reading through the replies here is just...

 

Disagree, explain why. But NO ONE HERE is deciding anything. So stop pretending you do. Put forward your arguments and your position and let the devs sort it out, Jesus Christ. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Raikao

[Rudra]

37 minutes ago, Raikao said:

 

Not if you read my entire post. I literally give an example of running through Praetoria on -1/1 since I wanted to have an easier time. I'm referring to my own experience with the diffculty setting. I'm pointing out my disbelief in the game being easy UNLESS one purposely lowers the difficulty.

 

The intent was not to be smug towards someone going "oh you just play on easy then cause you suck". That should also be clear from other comments I made, where I specifically call out such behavior of dismissing someone's opinion cause "they suck at the game" or "don't know the game" or "are stupid".

 

And if anything my point still stands. If the game is easy on 0/1, put it on +1/0 or any other higher difficulty until you personally with your skillset and build feel challenged.

 

What I don't get is what the baseline difficulty is, that we're supposedly balancing the game around.

I did read the entire post. I even went back just now to re-read it. Below is the post in question:

 

On 8/11/2023 at 5:25 AM, Raikao said:

 

I know how bodyguard mode works. I'm not sure we play the same game. I play mostly solo too, doing Mayhem MIssions on low level isn't easy. As a Stalker you suddenly get ambushed by mobs who know where you are. As a MM they come straight at you as well.

 

If you play on -1 then sure, the game's easy. But if you play at an appropiate difficulty, you sometimes get missions that are rather tricky. 

 

I just did a run through Praetoria on a Necro/Nature MM. I had it on -1/1 since I just wanted to get through missions faster, and was overlevelling anyway (I had to disable XP to do all the arcs). That was easy. But I also know the game, use the P2W Vendor.

 

I don't think you can generally call the game easy for new players. And as veteran players you can scale the difficulty. So the game is as easy as you make it. Same for challenge modes and hardmode content.

 

I just don't get it. Are you running missions on -1 and then complain about powercreep making the game too easy? What's the baseline here for this argument?

Now, re-reading your post, you open by telling me that you know how Bodyguard Mode works. (Which is what lets MMs tank things amazingly well, as long as the MM gives proper support to the pets.) Then you cite how mayhem ambushes ignore Stalker's Hide ability (use available terrain to force the ambushers to get next to you and you can still get in that first hit, just not an AS hit) and how MMs have to also deal with the ambushes going straight for them (which Bodyguard Mode goes a long way to ensuring isn't a problem), leaving out the fact that all ATs face that. Each AT has their own way of responding to it, and each player with those ATs finds his/her/their own way to do so as well.

 

Then we hit the first part I bolded. The whole "if you play on -1..." section, including the "sometimes" caveat. That portrays the assumption that only by playing at -1 difficulty is the game easy. Then follow that up with the second part I bolded, and then the last part I bolded, and you wind up with a post that basically reads that those of us saying the game is easy are playing at -1 difficulty. Do you see what @Greycat was saying now?

 

With just a few enhancements, and by paying attention to the map and what the mobs are doing, including when ambushes trigger, makes the game very easy. Even at "appropriate difficulty".

[Raikao]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I did read the entire post. I even went back just now to re-read it. Below is the post in question:

 

Now, re-reading your post, you open by telling me that you know how Bodyguard Mode works. (Which is what lets MMs tank things amazingly well, as long as the MM gives proper support to the pets.) Then you cite how mayhem ambushes ignore Stalker's Hide ability (use available terrain to force the ambushers to get next to you and you can still get in that first hit, just not an AS hit) and how MMs have to also deal with the ambushes going straight for them (which Bodyguard Mode goes a long way to ensuring isn't a problem), leaving out the fact that all ATs face that. Each AT has their own way of responding to it, and each player with those ATs finds his/her/their own way to do so as well.

 

Then we hit the first part I bolded. The whole "if you play on -1..." section, including the "sometimes" caveat. That portrays the assumption that only by playing at -1 difficulty is the game easy. Then follow that up with the second part I bolded, and then the last part I bolded, and you wind up with a post that basically reads that those of us saying the game is easy are playing at -1 difficulty. Do you see what @Greycat was saying now?

 

With just a few enhancements, and by paying attention to the map and what the mobs are doing, including when ambushes trigger, makes the game very easy. Even at "appropriate difficulty".

 

No I don't and I explained my intent. Can we not argue semantics now? You misunderstood then.

 

And yes, by doing things you make the game easier or harder for yourself. Lots of different things. Including difficulty settings, how much you pull, using terain.

 

That still leaves us with no baseline to argue about. Which is why we have this divide in understanding. What I consider hard or easy is not the same as yours. Add to that the fact that some people think the game is easy but having mobs with more HP isn't actually difficult either and now no one knows what this "difficulty" we're talking about even is.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Raikao said:

 

No I don't and I explained my intent. Can we not argue semantics now? You misunderstood then.

 

And yes, by doing things you make the game easier or harder for yourself. Lots of different things. Including difficulty settings, how much you pull, using terain.

 

That still leaves us with no baseline to argue about. Which is why we have this divide in understanding. What I consider hard or easy is not the same as yours. Add to that the fact that some people think the game is easy but having mobs with more HP isn't actually difficult either and now no one knows what this "difficulty" we're talking about even is.

You are very confusing. The difficulties are all set. I know you understand this, but I am going to state it anyway. The difficulty scale is determined by the mobs'/missions' relative level to your character. The difference in combat level determines a character's baseline chance to hit a target, and to be hit by the target. So against an equal level minion, you have a 75% chance to hit it. This chance scales up if the target's level is lower than yours, and scales down if the target's level is higher than yours. This also applies to the mobs' chances of hitting you. Also, the higher the level of the mob, the more damage their attacks do, and the longer their mezzes last against you. Why did I state all this? Because you said no one knows what "difficulty" is.

 

As for what constitutes baseline difficulty? Back on Live, that was defined as 3 minions of equal level to your character. That was meant to be a manageable difficulty the character could overcome but still suffer sufficient harm as to need to rest, use inspirations, or make use of other means of being able to get back into combat readiness. At low levels on HC, this still holds true, unless you are exemplaring down to that level by some means such as by doing a Flashback or teaming with a lower level character. @Luminara stated that HC has three +3 level minions as the new baseline. I have seen no such statement, so you would have to ask @Luminara for the reference. However, to the best of my knowledge, this new baseline would only apply at higher levels where you would have access to sufficient powers and enhancements to deal with such a threat. And for enhancements, the baseline is SOs. Not IO sets. (So the baseline would scale up as you level.)

 

Now some things skew that baseline. Praetoria for instance. Praetoria was created as a challenge for players, like the original Kheldian HEATs were. The mobs in Praetoria are significantly more dangerous than the mobs available at the same levels in Paragon City and the Rogue Isles. (Which is also why players playing through Praetoria find themselves leveling faster than players playing in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles. More difficult mobs means more xp awarded for their defeat.)

[Ruin Mage]

#1 is just all around a bad idea. Characters are strong enough as is and if you're having issues with builds with what slotting we do get? Ask for help. Otherwise: Skill Issue

#2 is an okay idea, but that's all it is. It's okay.
 

[JasperStone]

On 8/11/2023 at 1:27 PM, Aracknight said:

I just wanted to fly without a jetpack.  I Like all my other powers.  I use all the other powers on my Scrapper.   I even took and use Elude and Warrior's Challenge.  

 

So i wanted to not have punch or kick, so i could fly without a finite, immersion breaking costume altering temporary power.  I wasn't going to shatter the game by taking a power that gives a tiny amount of defense to my soft-capped scrapper.  It might have let me travel places i cant use infiltration to reach slightly faster.  

 

I suppose this doesn't qualify as lateral expansion, but i guess i needed vertical expansion instead.

 

I'm not entitled.  I'm not trying to shatter records for completing things.  Flying vs an attack i neither slot, nor use, will not help me take down a gm av or pylon faster.

 

I dont like the assumption behind my motives for asking for this, specifically for the fighting pool, but i dont slot or use maneuvers either even though i run tactics at all times.  

 

I think some people, who metagame, worry more about what someone could do instead of what they would.

 

And all i wanted, was to fly.

 

Now, i know the obvious answer has to do with trade offs and hard choices.  My reply is that it doesn't have to be.

 

But the suggestion forum cartel convey the appearance, whether intentional or not, that they are protecting the game from our wild ideas because it will destroy everything, and that zeal comea across as unwelcoming, and has a tone that contains "no, stupid.  Because we said so.  Because we know better than you.  Because your idea is so bad, it will literally lead to the destruction of the game.  If you don't like it, leave "

 

And thats fucked up.  And thats why some of you have, whether earned or unearned, gotten the reputations that you have.  You make me not want to log into the forums.  You make me not want to test on the beta.  You make me want to not log in to the game.

 

All because i wanted to fly.

 

So, in the hopes that my part of this request will no longer be seen as a sinister plot to destroy the city with my powermad dreams of...power, im gonna fucking bow out of this.

 

 

 

 

"suggestion forum cartel"

It took me this long to not respond with a vitriol-filled statement.

 

I spent most of Live lurking in the Forums, believing my opinions did not matter.

Saying very little during all those years. That is a long time.

And a good part of Homecoming doing the same.

I have chosen to be more vocal, my opinion has as much value as anyone else.

My opinion does matter, and plenty of my "suggestions" have been shot down.

 

Yes, a number of us are vocal here in a number of Forums.

I wish there was more from the game present.

 

To the OP: Why not open ALL the pools in the same way you want Fighting Pool?

You want just this small change.

I want to change all of them. 

 

 

I am on an Elec/Elec Brute and want Unrelenting from the Presence Pool.

Two choices to get there and I am not sure (yet) how to do it.

Looking forward to figuring it out.

 

This IS a Suggestion forum.

Just because an idea is posted does not mean it needs to be supported.

 

We can certainly change this forum.

A suggestion is made and then implemented. 

And happiness ensues.

We find ourselves with the FreeForm Builds on Champions Online

Much happiness.

 

Side note to yes to everything:

I was hired for a job many years ago, with many duties attached to it.

The last one was to be a "Yes man".

The new director was replacing a much-loved one and was facing pushback. A Lot of pushback

After a few years in the job, she thanked me for all my support and for believing in her.

"It is my job"

"So you believe in what I am doing?"

"It is my job"

Long stare, long silence

She dropped the topic.

 

[arcane]

10 hours ago, Raikao said:

Wtf is up with all this vitriol on these forums?

 

 

Disagreement is not vitriol. 

[Dryfter]

I don't want all of the crazy things that are being asked (demanded) for on this thread, but I WOULD like 4 slots at level 50 vice 3.  Just one extra little rounding out the toon slot. I know we can't all have all slots full and all powers for everything. That would make everyone Superman and make the game MUCH too easy, and it already IS pretty easy.
And to the guy who thinks he can't have his Scrapper fly while having all of the other powers he wants, I have dozens of fully decked out bad arse Scrappers and ALL of them have a travel power. Not to offend, but you're doing something wrong.

On another subject... I really really really REALLY want dual auras. PRETTY please?

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Dryfter

[Arbegla]

Please give my already overpowered and over tuned character less restrictive power choices and more power slots. Please. I would kill for like 1 more slot. Seriously, I can push a lot of power out of one slot.

 

This is a joke post. and all i can say to the OP is /powercreep.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Arbegla

[SwitchFade]

Please Santa, all I want for Xmas is a red rider bb gun.

 

I promise, I won't shoot my eyeballs out.

 

Please don't make me eat soap!

[honoroit]

 

/emote protest

/emote tantrum

 

no punch! no kick! only tough/weave!

 

 

enjoy monday AMV.

[Akisan]

17 hours ago, Raikao said:

But "you have to have punch/kick for tough/weave" doesn't make any sense, when restrictions exactly liek this have been lifted or changed everywhere else. I can skip a T1 in my secondary, I can get travel powers earlier. But I can't get GroupFly without TWO pre-requisits. It's not even an optimal pick. I just want to give my robots some rocketbots like once every 2 hours of playtime, because I want to avoid pulling something or have to fight in a giant room and don't want them to fall and jump all over the place.

 

*sigh*
I really wish people would stop looking/pointing at the travel power pools - they're a bad example.  The early travel power was a VIP/P2W reward on the Live servers; free (and low-tier premium) players still had to wait until 14, and have another power from that pool (just like all the other pools). Those got grandfathered in, along with a bunch of the other P2W stuff - Mystic Fortune, Inner inspiration, unstable mutation, the various attacks, etc.  As far as I'm concerned, taking an early travel power is still a P2W gimmick, even it it's been granted to all of us for free.

 

As for the lowered level requirements for primaries and secondaries (and skipping the T1 in secondaries) - As I recall, the main force there was to prevent players from being forced to take pool powers in their earlier levels (a level 24 character had to have at least one pool power).  Plus, nice QoL there on the secondaries since some builds just don't use their T1 secondary.  At least with Kick/Boxing, you chose to have a dead power, instead of being forced into it.  Yes, there was some power creep involved there, but not nearly as much as we'd get by freeing up those prerequisite power pool picks.

 

 

[Chance Jackson]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:21 AM, honoroit said:

 

yes. same crew.

Every. Single. TIME

[OverkillEngine]

Ima skip past the multiple pages of pointless bickering and chip my shillings into the pond on the Fighting Pool, and by extension, all the general pools:


I don't mind the concept of prerequisites in the general pools. What I mind is the execution. To put it nicely, Boxing and Kick both suck outside of some very extenuating circumstances, even if you burn an additional power pick on Cross Punch. Sure they don't suck as bad as they used to, but they still suck (unless your idea of fun includes 6 slotting Brawl), and investment in them mainly just makes them suck less at the expense of slots that could be been far better spent elsewhere even on builds where melee attacks is at least within theme.  Which is extra galling when if all you wanted to do was to pick up a bit more personal mitigation due to a lack of it in your primary and secondary, but it is being gatekept behind garbage.

At least some of the other pools do it right and one of the two early picks performs adequately as a one slot wonder if one so desires, while still also being worth slotting.

Makes me kind of wish the Fighting pool had been split into two pools instead, Close Quarters Combat and Defensive Training. But it's a bit late for that, so best compromise that I could see is maybe swapping the position of Kick and Tough. And then doing a review of how Tough and Weave might need rebalanced if not being forced to waste a power pick makes it too easy for melee AT's to become immortal.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, OverkillEngine said:

Ima skip past the multiple pages of pointless bickering and chip my shillings into the pond on the Fighting Pool, and by extension, all the general pools:


I don't mind the concept of prerequisites in the general pools. What I mind is the execution. To put it nicely, Boxing and Kick both suck outside of some very extenuating circumstances, even if you burn an additional power pick on Cross Punch. Sure they don't suck as bad as they used to, but they still suck (unless your idea of fun includes 6 slotting Brawl), and investment in them mainly just makes them suck less at the expense of slots that could be been far better spent elsewhere even on builds where melee attacks is at least within theme.  Which is extra galling when if all you wanted to do was to pick up a bit more personal mitigation due to a lack of it in your primary and secondary, but it is being gatekept behind garbage.

At least some of the other pools do it right and one of the two early picks performs adequately as a one slot wonder if one so desires, while still also being worth slotting.

Makes me kind of wish the Fighting pool had been split into two pools instead, Close Quarters Combat and Defensive Training. But it's a bit late for that, so best compromise that I could see is maybe swapping the position of Kick and Tough. And then doing a review of how Tough and Weave might need rebalanced if not being forced to waste a power pick makes it too easy for melee AT's to become immortal.

Since we're skipping the whole... Balance portion of the discussion...

 

Fine. No prereqs, but tough costs 2 powers if taken alone. Now you don't have to take kick or punch and tough can be taken alone. But it still costs you the same 2 power picks.

 

That strikes a middle ground, now balance is maintained and kick or punch doesn't clutter up the power tray.

 

Compromise is fun.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

Every. Single. TIME

Except on Sunday.

[Glacier Peak]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:26 AM, Raikao said:

Of course I'd love to hear what others think.

Your suggestion would make the game boring. I already have the tools to do anything in the game with ease. Superman is a pretty boring comic book character when nothing can kill him. Risk of defeat is part of the way game mechanics work in this game. Big picture, this is not a suggestion I'd support.

[Akisan]

5 hours ago, OverkillEngine said:

I don't mind the concept of prerequisites in the general pools. What I mind is the execution. To put it nicely, Boxing and Kick both suck outside of some very extenuating circumstances, even if you burn an additional power pick on Cross Punch. Sure they don't suck as bad as they used to, but they still suck (unless your idea of fun includes 6 slotting Brawl), and investment in them mainly just makes them suck less at the expense of slots that could be been far better spent elsewhere even on builds where melee attacks is at least within theme.  Which is extra galling when if all you wanted to do was to pick up a bit more personal mitigation due to a lack of it in your primary and secondary, but it is being gatekept behind garbage.

 

Right there with you on this.  In general, I'd like for a review of all pool power attacks :

 

They're all balanced to be weaker than our core powers, often too much so.  I pretty much only see them used as A) gimmick powers (fighting pool, spring attack), or B) have other utility (excellent control with Air Superiority's KD), or C) Mules/ Prereqs.  If they were strengthened to the point where they were equivalent to some of our mid-tier powers (i.e. Jump Kick being roughly a T2/T3 scrapper attack), we'd probably see more build variety (since they'd be alternate choices, instead of weak/dead choices).  As a bonus, they'd probably be worth slotting at that point, too!

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Akisan said:

 

Right there with you on this.  In general, I'd like for a review of all pool power attacks :

 

They're all balanced to be weaker than our core powers, often too much so.  I pretty much only see them used as A) gimmick powers (fighting pool, spring attack), or B) have other utility (excellent control with Air Superiority's KD), or C) Mules/ Prereqs.  If they were strengthened to the point where they were equivalent to some of our mid-tier powers (i.e. Jump Kick being roughly a T2/T3 scrapper attack), we'd probably see more build variety (since they'd be alternate choices, instead of weak/dead choices).  As a bonus, they'd probably be worth slotting at that point, too!

T1 attack? Okay. T2 attack? ... maybe.... T3 attacks? Too strong for a pool attack. (Edit: At least for a pool attack that lacks prerequisites of its own.)

Edited August 18, 2023 by Rudra

[SwitchFade]

51 minutes ago, Akisan said:

 

Right there with you on this.  In general, I'd like for a review of all pool power attacks :

 

They're all balanced to be weaker than our core powers, often too much so.  I pretty much only see them used as A) gimmick powers (fighting pool, spring attack), or B) have other utility (excellent control with Air Superiority's KD), or C) Mules/ Prereqs.  If they were strengthened to the point where they were equivalent to some of our mid-tier powers (i.e. Jump Kick being roughly a T2/T3 scrapper attack), we'd probably see more build variety (since they'd be alternate choices, instead of weak/dead choices).  As a bonus, they'd probably be worth slotting at that point, too!

Air sup outperforms some t1s for damage and has guaranteed KU

 

Spring attack has mobility and is on par with t1s for damage

 

The whole game is balanced around the limited choices you have, giving one more free power, or two more, by removing prereqs would mean tuning down powers, removing powers.... A whole host of issues.

 

Further, there are many builds and combinations that don't even need to take all the powers they are allocated to max out potential. For example, SR doesn't need elude. Pair SR with Katana... Don't need elude, don't need the attack that "parries" and adds defense, if I'm a scrap I don't need my taunt, I don't need my T1 or T2.

 

In fact, my Kat/SR scrap has tough, weave, maneuvers, tactics, epics, SJ and SS and is min/maxed at 58-62% def to m/r/a, maxed out damage, 60-75 s/l resist, tons of end recovery natively.... She's dope, and my last power picks were.... Meh, didn't need them. And that's with prereqs and epics and min maxing.

 

Same on stalkers, controllers, blasters... Plenty of toons that 2 of my power picks are basically not for anything and I still max out the toon.

 

This theory that we need those power slots because we're starved doesn't play out in practice because I often have more power choices than I need and I push every build to the extreme.

 

Sorry, no vote.

Edited August 18, 2023 by SwitchFade

[Akisan]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

T1 attack? Okay. T2 attack? ... maybe.... T3 attacks? Too strong for a pool attack. (Edit: At least for a pool attack that lacks prerequisites of its own.)

 

IIRC, many pool attacks (like Jump Kick & Flurry) have a long animation time. 

 

And, regarding T1/T2/T3 eqivalency - lots of players skip either their T1 or T2 attacks.  For a pool attack to be a viable pick it needs to be equivalent or better than the power it replaces (CC, utility, DPA, whatever) - so these attacks need to be T2 equivalent minimum, OR bring something else to the table (like there are no ranged attacks in the basic pools)

 

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Air sup outperforms some t1s for damage and has guaranteed KU

 

Spring attack has mobility and is on par with t1s for damage

 

I did mention AS for its excellent utility.  SA's less common though - it requires 2 other powers, but the mobility is nice to have (though, I tend to favor Acro instead on my squishies - that 2 Mag hold protection is criminally underrated).

 

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

The whole game is balanced around the limited choices you have, giving one more free power, or two more, by removing prereqs would mean tuning down powers, removing powers.... A whole host of issues.

 

So not advocating for prereqs to be removed.  I'm asking for pool attacks to be reviewed so the majority aren't widely regarded as wasted picks.

 

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Same on stalkers, controllers, blasters... Plenty of toons that 2 of my power picks are basically not for anything and I still max out the toon.

 

This theory that we need those power slots because we're starved doesn't play out in practice because I often have more power choices than I need and I push every build to the extreme.

 

 

And my blaster has 3 powers from the Medicine pool (Injection's so worth it on Posi 1!).  We don't need all of our power picks, but if I'm going to give up utility for a basic attack, it needs to count.  And if the price of the boxing attacks actually mattering is a nerf to Tough/Weave, that's fine - it's poor design for Boxing/Kick to be a tax on people taking Tough/Weave.  

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Akisan said:

And, regarding T1/T2/T3 eqivalency - lots of players skip either their T1 or T2 attacks.  For a pool attack to be a viable pick it needs to be equivalent or better than the power it replaces (CC, utility, DPA, whatever) - so these attacks need to be T2 equivalent minimum, OR bring something else to the table (like there are no ranged attacks in the basic pools)

 

This is where we disagree. While some players may skip their T1 and/or 2 attacks doesn't mean the baseline for comparison for pool powers is the T3. Bringing pool power attacks with no prerequisites up to par with primary/secondary pool T1/2 attacks should be more than enough for parity. Like you acknowledged earlier, pool power attacks are meant to be inferior in some way to primary/secondary attacks. I'm fine with closing the gap for some powers. Not with boosting them to match T3s though. Though I should point, from what this thread is focused on, when the Fighting Pool's attacks are all taken, their synergy does make them superior to several primary/secondary attacks. It's not the devs' fault that players refuse to invest in them to fully utilize them.

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add "/or" and correct "pol" to "pool".