ENERGY MELEE

[Lazarus]

So i was thinking of starting a new toon with EM, but with the total focus and energy transfer being only partial crit, is this set less on scrapper then a brute.

 

what are the pros and cons,.of scrapper  vs brute vs tank?

 

rhoughts

[Without_Pause]

EM is likely the best ST damage for any of the melee ATs so to say it is 'lesser' on a Scrapper is incredibly wrong. You haven't overkilled a target until you start overkilling with an EM Scrapper. 😄Damage will go Scrapper > Brute > Tanker with the one notable item being Tankers get bigger AoEs. In short, EM defaults to S tier for any AT which uses it. 

[nihilii]

Pros on Scrappers:

- Scrappers are awesome and deal fantastic damage

- EM structure works well with Scrapper ATOs. You stick the crit ATO in Total Focus, this gives you near guaranteed chance to go off

- which, if you follow up with ET, means you turned ET into a heal instead of selfdamage

- TF will sometimes crit and give you 2 fast ET in a row

 

Pros on Brutes:

- idk. It's still EM so it's going to be good

 

Pros on Tankers:

- Whirling Hands with Tanker extra radius and target cap does solid AoE damage

- Tanker survivability helps you handle ET's -hp

[BrandX]

I can tell you now, I have never had to worry about ET's -HP on any Scrapper, no matter than Secondary.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I like EM on a stalker, controlled crits are amazing

[SomeGuy]

Scrapper. Not sure of any cons compared to how it plays vs other ATs. Tanker gets more AOE in terms of damage. Other than that, it is a VERY large DPS difference.

 

Put the ATO2 in ET. It statistically is better there.

 

Don't worry about HP doing ET a lot. Yes, don't forget about it, but it isn't a factor.

 

The AOE on EM isn't horrible, but it isn't good. The AOE isn't why someone grows to love the set.

 

For scrappers, ET doesn't crit. It instantly refreshes.

[BrandX]

14 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Scrapper. Not sure of any cons compared to how it plays vs other ATs. Tanker gets more AOE in terms of damage. Other than that, it is a VERY large DPS difference.

 

Put the ATO2 in ET. It statistically is better there.

 

Don't worry about HP doing ET a lot. Yes, don't forget about it, but it isn't a factor.

 

The AOE on EM isn't horrible, but it isn't good. The AOE isn't why someone grows to love the set.

 

For scrappers, ET doesn't crit. It instantly refreshes.

 

I thought ET partially critted with the changes.

[aethereal]

On 9/18/2023 at 11:12 PM, BrandX said:

 

I thought ET partially critted with the changes.

You're correct.

[DarknessEternal]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:46 AM, Without_Pause said:

EM is likely the best ST damage for any of the melee ATs

Nope, there's 6 better at ST for scrappers.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by DarknessEternal

[nihilii]

^ I would argue those are "ideal" conditions. i.e., your enemy doesn't have any resistances and you spend the whole fight standing still hitting them.

I find EM pulls ahead *significantly* in practical conditions. Most tough foes have higher S/L resistances than E. More importantly, EM is perfectly built to maximize burst damage on a second per second basis:

- no conditionals like -RES procs/native

- no combos

- high DPA

- high damage per power activation

In practical terms, this means EM might do TF -> ET -> BS/snipe -> (move to next target / use misc click), where the "move" move replaces a low DPA option

While (for example) Claws might be at FU -> Swipe -> Focus -> Zapp -> (move to next target / use misc click), where the "move" move is eating into your effective FU buff, your -RES procs, and so on

I've seen many of my characters do 400 DPS on paper only to watch the 400 paper DPS EM obliterate AVs while the 400 paper DPS Battle Axe (for example, and a favorite of mine for that matter) is comparatively slower.

In general, optionality will be underrated in Pylon testing-ish conditions, but real play tends to fare better. I find another set where this is obvious is Radiation Melee. It's lower end in the charts, but in practice energy damage + DB -> (critical strikes procced) Snipe -> (critical strikes procced) RS (or AS for groups) has excellent fluidity. Another benefit lies in Radiation applying its -RES procs through its passive aura rather than active clicks.

[BrandX]

I still question if Cross Punch would be better than Bone Smasher.  Even if CP can slot a -Resist.  ET > TF > ET > BS > Gloom 

[Without_Pause]

7 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

Nope, there's 6 better at ST for scrappers.

Technically it looks like Claws and EM are tied, and as nihilii pointed out, that doesn't factor in resistances where EM would pull ahead. DB isn't even 7% better than EM in terms of time, and my leaning is that DB is going to be more resisted than 7%. Plus, I always feel like adding Epics in is a bit of a cheat since things like Gloom overperform in terms of DPA. I've never taken a Epic attack for Claws because frankly I don't feel like I need one. There is also the burst damage factor as well. A set with more burst damage is going to take out a minion quicker and move on as where something that has lesser burst is going to take that extra attack to finish off the minion.

 

EDIT: This doesn't change the fact that a EM Scrapper is absolutely going to wreck things and be S tier for Scrappers. I only stopped playing my EM/ea Scrapper because I don't like EM, but it is likely the only S tier build I have played that I won't take to 50.

 

EDIT #2: EM is currently leading the poll for the Best/Meta/etc set for a Scrapper. Ice/Fire/DB combined have half the votes of EM.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Without_Pause

[Frosticus]

Ya I think most people overlook several things.

1. EM's performance is raw damage. It isn't using self buffing things like follow up, or multiple -res powers.

 

2. EM responds better to buffing and debuffing. If a claws is pushing 2x followup and buffed by forge it will see less relative increase. Same goes for builds stacking a bunch of -res to get their numbers.

 

3. Some sets require a static enemy to get anywhere close to top performance. Not all scrappers have a taunt aura, or tools to keep mobs still. TW taking 2 steps to chase and having momentum drop is tedious.

 

4. Almost all scrapper sets can dish out great damage, so you should generally play what you like.

 

5. As nuts as EM is on scrappers, stalkers crank it up several notches. Consistent and predictable double focus, fast AS and buffed power crash. 

[aethereal]

A lot of it is just, "-res is massively more impactful on pylons than it is on the rest of the game."

 

If you look at the pylon portion of the spreadsheet that the guy there linked, he noted how many -res procs he included.  It's, uh, pretty stark.

[Troo]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:17 PM, DarknessEternal said:

Nope, there's 6 better at ST for scrappers.

 

HAHAHAHAHA.. cough HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[SomeGuy]

9 hours ago, Troo said:

 

HAHAHAHAHA.. cough HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

 

 

Ummm....ok. Not sure if you're laughing cause you think this is absurd.

 

But factually, EM is definitely not the best at ST for scrappers (is it REALLY good in that department, most definitely yes). There has been data collected about this from MULTIPLE sources, including one in this thread. And myself. Ston is one of the few people I will listen to when it comes to dealing DPS in this game. I know that they and I can just look at a number, the AT and combo, and make some real fast guesses how it was built. What buffs they used. If it's an average or a best run. Etc.

 

So yea. EM is not the best at ST. But it's fun and really good at it.

Edited September 24, 2023 by SomeGuy

[Without_Pause]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:21 PM, SomeGuy said:

 

 

Ummm....ok. Not sure if you're laughing cause you think this is absurd.

 

But factually, EM is definitely not the best at ST for scrappers (is it REALLY good in that department, most definitely yes). There has been data collected about this from MULTIPLE sources, including one in this thread. And myself. Ston is one of the few people I will listen to when it comes to dealing DPS in this game. I know that they and I can just look at a number, the AT and combo, and make some real fast guesses how it was built. What buffs they used. If it's an average or a best run. Etc.

 

So yea. EM is not the best at ST. But it's fun and really good at it.

The problem is all of that testing is done against pylons and Council. I'm not even saying EM is the highest, but it certainly isn't tied for 6th on a Scrapper. 

[SomeGuy]

5 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

The problem is all of that testing is done against pylons and Council. I'm not even saying EM is the highest, but it certainly isn't tied for 6th on a Scrapper. 

 

 

You'd be surprised. Then again, a lot of people think regen is good and that DM is top tier DPS.

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

You'd be surprised. Then again, a lot of people think regen is good and that DM is top tier DPS.

 

By good, they totally mean COOL!

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

You'd be surprised. Then again, a lot of people think regen is good and that DM is top tier DPS.

You can't convince me that Energy is more resisted than S/L. Not as someone who has taken Claws to 50 multiple times. 

[SomeGuy]

17 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

You can't convince me that Energy is more resisted than S/L. Not as someone who has taken Claws to 50 multiple times. 

 

 

Oh, that's definitely not what I'm trying to convey. I've actually put a lot of thought in to this. I suspect why some of the more heavy S/L damage sets run away in DPS is because of the fact they can slap procs in them with varying damage types. I haven't found sets like DM or EM to benefit much from procs, whereas sets like Claws and Kat just become ridiculous monsters.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U/edit#gid=905771942

 

Not sure who slapped this together or where I found it. It is useful though.

Edited September 29, 2023 by SomeGuy

[A Cat]

Based on the testing criteria, it seems that sets with the ability to proc things up like crazy are probably better in dps testing than a "real" build would perform. You wouldn't likely be able to fully proc more than one or two attacks while still meeting other build goals, such as survivability. Every other attack would likely just have one or two procs, which every set can do. Frankly, even given all that, I'm amazed ice was that good. It has like one good ST attack!

[aethereal]

Again, the pylon results are incredibly skewed not by procs in general, but by -res procs in particular.  Two of the top six contenders have fifteen instances of -res procs firing.  Against the "always on-level" pylons, this produces considerably outsized results compared to the "usually +3 or more" level of most other hard targets.

[tidge]

I've only played Energy Melee (from all eras, Day 1 thru Homecoming today) on a Tanker... on Homecoming, I find Energy Melee to be a very satisfying offensive set. There is always a possibility of "corpse punching", but the fast/focused attacks mitigate this rather well. The Total Focus mechanic/ i27 revamp isn't what I wanted, but it was a good set of changes.

 

Any HP cost from Energy Transfer is rather meaningless IMO. Have the Reactive Defenses %Scaling Damage Resistance piece slotted (in addition to %+HP pieces) and you will never notice.

[Without_Pause]

On 9/29/2023 at 4:40 PM, SomeGuy said:

 

 

Oh, that's definitely not what I'm trying to convey. I've actually put a lot of thought in to this. I suspect why some of the more heavy S/L damage sets run away in DPS is because of the fact they can slap procs in them with varying damage types. I haven't found sets like DM or EM to benefit much from procs, whereas sets like Claws and Kat just become ridiculous monsters.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U/edit#gid=905771942

 

Not sure who slapped this together or where I found it. It is useful though.

1. That speaks more to the power of procs than it does the sets themselves.

2. I went and did a comparison of two builds. Mine is a non-proc heavy build. The other is posted on the forums is proc heavy. Both use the same Def based armor. They have different melee sets so not a 1:1 comparison. My build has 27% more S/L Res. 16%-17% more E/N Res. It also has more Regen, ToHit, etc.

 

So yes, by all means due to the power of procs some sets can overperform, but they are also sacrificing a rather noticeable amount of mitigation for it as well.