Lets talk Regeneration Set

[UltraAlt]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:32 AM, liveevil2000 said:

I've been wanting to use the Regeneration set for a while, but after looking it over, it seems to have extremely limited Def/Res. So making a Tank, Brute, Scrapper, etc... utilizing this set seems like it would be tough to survive.

Or am I missing something?

 

Are you skipping over the game and going directly to the end-game by being power-leveled to level 50?

 

I'm not an end-gamer. I'm an alt-jumper.

I'm fine with my regen characters.

 

The different power sets play differently.

If you only want to play one way, then you are limiting the power combinations that you will enjoy playing. If your mindset how sets should play is limited, then so will be your picks for power sets if you want to stay within those limits.

If you play a powerset by leveling up, you learn how new power combinations/archetypes work. If you take time to figure out how to use the powers and tactics that work for those power sets, then any power combination can work especially as part of a team. But you have to go with what the power sets/archetype give you instead of trying to force the power set/archetype to perform based on a preconceived notion of how it should behave.

 

Sure there is less defense and resistance in Regeneration. REGENERATION is about the +Regen and +Recovery. It outperforms the other sets in +Regen and +Recovery.

 

I have no idea how it performs in the end-game, and I really don't a care.

It works fine during leveling.

I can't say it is my go-to pick because I don't have a go-to pick.

I create characters based on character conception. I don't bother with mini-maxing. I playing the game to have fun and not to "beat" the game or be "uber" in some way.

 

Playing different characters based on their character conception and learning/knowing/employing each character's strengths and weaknesses is what keeps the game interesting to me.

That is to say, what keeps me playing is the differences between characters and not the similarities in the characters that I play.

 

 

[Without_Pause]

4 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

That's not how the mitigation calculations work.   IIRC, your actual +DEF calc is 100 - (50%+ (your +DEF)).   The number is capped at 95% so that's why getting 45% +DEF is the "soft cap."   So think of it like this.  If you have 40% +DEF.  10% of the damage is getting through.  When you add 5% more +DEF, you've reduced the incoming damage to by half.  This doubles your survival time. 

 

100 - (50 + 40) = 90% total mitigation.

100 - (50 + 45) = 95% total mitigation.

 

You are already mitigating 90% at 40% Def. You literally can't double it. What you are dealing with in going to 45% is your remaining mitigation.

 

While yes, to get a more accurate read on a set skipping on pool powers helps, but the Fighting pool has long been a default for melee characters even before even IOs. Illusion control has long been judged based on having PA be perma. Try that using SOs and without Hasten. "This set is perfectly fine as a standard as long as no one uses things freely available to them" is a weird flex.

 

Regen not having debuff protection is a failing of Regen. Tough and Weave aren't saving it from that.

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I can offer you a very non clicky defense set that works much better than Regen, and is easier to slot (and use)  Invulnerability.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

Invulnerability works and plays very differently for sure.  It is much more survivable to be sure.  It's not any easier to slot or play, I would argue.   Regen is actually pretty easy to use.  It just doesn't give you as much mitigation as Invulnerability. 

[arcane]

The Fighting pool is sooo 2022

[A Cat]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

As someone who studied to me a Math teacher, no I'm not wasting my time in a spreadsheet.

Pretty sure Blackjoy right. 

[A Cat]

35 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

 

100 - (50 + 40) = 90% total mitigation.

100 - (50 + 45) = 95% total mitigation.

 

You are already mitigating 90% at 40% Def. You literally can't double it. What you are dealing with in going to 45% is your remaining mitigation

You're talking about two different things. Blackjoy is taking about added survival time. You're both right but taking about separate things. 

[Snarky]

43 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Invulnerability works and plays very differently for sure.  It is much more survivable to be sure.  It's not any easier to slot or play, I would argue.   Regen is actually pretty easy to use.  It just doesn't give you as much mitigation as Invulnerability. 

I use Hyperstrike's Invulnerability guides to slot that defense/armor set.  Aside from shopping for the components it just does not get any easier.  

 

If you have not looked at Hyperstrikes work I highly recommend it.  I would place a Hyperstrike Invul Brute as more survivable than anyone else's Tank except a Hyperstrike Invul Tank.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

You are already mitigating 90% at 40% Def. You literally can't double it. What you are dealing with in going to 45% is your remaining mitigation.

They may be looking at it from a different perspective, i.e. if 10% gets through at 40% def, and only 5% gets through at 45% def, then, in a sense, you have halved that amount of damage that can get through.

[Blackjoy]

3 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

100 - (50 + 40) = 90% total mitigation.

100 - (50 + 45) = 95% total mitigation.

So yeah, that  equation is conflating concepts...which leads to confusion

 

100-90=10% Incoming  damage

100-95=5%  Incoming damage.   

 

So you can see that if you get the terminology wrong, it interferes with conceptualization.   There's been years of people looking at how to quantify the different sets.  A popular one is called "effective health."  I use the "I win" equation. In my  method you eventually have to divide your health by the incoming damage per second to determine how long you'll survive.   So as the damage goes to zero, your survival time goes to infinity.  "I win" if the time it takes the mobs to defeat me is longer than the time it takes me to defeat them.

 

Let's look at a simple example:

 

If my health is 100 hps, and the raw DPS is 10 health/sec.  90% defense means I'm taking 1 point per second and I live 100 seconds....on average.   So if I add Weave and now have 95% mitigation, then I'm losing .5 /second and I live 200 seconds....on average.  So you can see that adding  +5% DEF doubles my TOTAL survival time if I'm already at 90%

 

Now let's look at that on a set with no +DEF powers.

100 health.   Losing 10/second.  Base 50% +DEF means I'm lasting 20 seconds...on average. 

Add 5% Weave....I'm getting 55% DEF which means I'm taking 4.5/second.  I live 22 seconds....on average.  

 

So now you see adding that 5% +DEF to someone near the DEF cap adds as much survival time as  all the +DEF before that.

 

The math is simple, but conceptually it can be a little slippery if you conflate terms.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Blackjoy]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Regen not having debuff protection is a failing of Regen. Tough and Weave aren't saving it from that.

/Regen not thaving debuff protection isn't a "failing" of /Regen.  It's an intended consequence of the design.   A developers wants each set to have specific weaknesses that make other sets look attractive.    /Regen has minimal debuff resistance, but it treats all damage types the same.   /SR is totally ravaged by Psi/Toxic, but it avoids lots of debuffs that have to hit.  /SR also doesn't have any endurance management and is very susceptible to big hits from +1/2/3/4 AVs who plow past the passive +RES.

 

Every set has to have an Achilles' heal. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Sarrate]

3 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

That's not how the mitigation calculations work.   IIRC, your actual +DEF calc is 100 - (50%+ (your +DEF)).   The number is capped at 95% so that's why getting 45% +DEF is the "soft cap."   So think of it like this.  If you have 40% +DEF.  10% of the damage is getting through.  When you add 5% more +DEF, you've reduced the incoming damage to by half.  This doubles your survival time. 

 

3 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

100 - (50 + 40) = 90% total mitigation.

100 - (50 + 45) = 95% total mitigation.

 

You are already mitigating 90% at 40% Def. You literally can't double it. What you are dealing with in going to 45% is your remaining mitigation.

 

The actual formula is:

 

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

 

Homecoming Wiki - Attack Mechanics

 

A rule of thumb, you're mitigating double your defense (10% def = 20% mitigation, 45% def = 90% mitigation). It's not always true (in the presence of large +acc where it's hitting the 95% cap, or the presence of +tohit).

 

 

As others have mentioned, you're not doubling your mitigation, per se, but doubling your survivability.

 

Consider that you have 1,000 max hp, going from 0% to 50% res (or 0% to 25% def) would allow you to take ~2,000 dmg before defeat - 2x as much.

Now consider going to 90% res (or 45% def) - that would allow you to take 10,000 dmg before defeat. That is a 5x increase from 50%, and instead of adding 50% res, we only added 40%.

 

Mitigation of the same type increases exponentially in effectiveness. It's why in many other MMOs, they have things like "defense rating", where the more you have, the less mitigation (as a percent) you get.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

/Regen not thaving debuff protection isn't a "failing" of /Regen.  It's an intended consequence of the design.   A developers wants each set to have specific weaknesses that make other sets look attractive.    /Regen has minimal debuff resistance, but it treats all damage types the same.   /SR is totally ravaged by Psi/Toxic, but it avoids lots of debuffs that have to hit.  /SR also doesn't have any endurance management and is very susceptible to big hits from +1/2/3/4 AVs who plow past the passive +RES.

 

Every set has to have an Achilles' heal. 

 

Every set gets a resistance to debuff according to their design...and lots of it. Resistance as some has pointed out, can get 100% Resistance to Resistance Debuffs. SR gets 62.31% and with Elude running, they get another 34.6% on top of that for a grand total of 96.91% Resistance to Defense Debuffs. Regen gets a measly flat 25.95%. Add on top of this no Defense and not much of a Resist to speak of and that becomes a failure within a failed set, IMO.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Solarverse

[Snarky]

and the beat goes on

[Blackjoy]

43 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Add on top of this no Defense and not much of a Resist to speak of and that becomes a failure within a failed set, IMO.

Sounds like /Regen is not the set for you.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

Sounds like /Regen is not the set for you.

 

You say that as if you somehow have a better understanding of the set or something. Let's not pretend this game is not almost 20 damn years old or anything and that most of us have a pretty damn good grasp of every last power set in this game by now...

[Snarky]

23 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

You say that as if you somehow have a better understanding of the set or something. Let's not pretend this game is not almost 20 damn years old or anything and that most of us have a pretty damn good grasp of every last power set in this game by now...

I am in this game just so i can pretend 

[Ignatz the Insane]

Regen is great for soloing at minimum difficulty.  When IO'd out it can push the envelope quite a bit at the cost of DPS.  Same as any of the weaker solo classes.  Me?  I'd rather just about any other secondary for Scrappers, and if I'm intent on Regen, I'll play a Sentinel.  I reckon most players are rather casual.  In which case Regen is just fine.  If you want something that is a better performer for Hard Mode content or difficult solo challenges, pick something else.  Not sure why this is so hard.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Ignatz the Insane

[Marshal_General]

17 hours ago, Snarky said:

I can offer you a very non clicky defense set that works much better than Regen, and is easier to slot (and use)  Invulnerability.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

I would call him a sadistic hippophilic necrophile, but that's beating a dead horse.

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Regen is great for soloing at minimum difficulty.  When IO'd out it can push the envelope quite a bit at the cost of DPS.  Same as any of the weaker solo classes.  Me?  I'd rather just about any other secondary for Scrappers, and if I'm intent on Regen, I'll play a Sentinel.  I reckon most players are rather casual.  In which case Regen is just fine.  If you want something that is a better performer for Hard Mode content or difficult solo challenges, pick something else.  Not sure why this is so hard.

I prefer Willpower on Sentinel, but honestly have always avoided Regen (I keep hearing they are going to nerf it...)  I have run a few Willpower Sents.  On a Beam Rifle/Will Sent it was insanely fun run.  Until 50, then you realize you are doing meh team help.  I can run a Brute and "pretend" I am helping.  Sometimes I even rescue a teammate who is not where they are supposed to be. (Which I can do on a good Blaster 75% time...) But after running "real" Blasters and Corruptors it is hard to sit on a Sentinel and sandpaper away at enemies.

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

 (I keep hearing they are going to nerf it...)

 

They need to Set Regen Free!

[Psi-bolt]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

I prefer Willpower on Sentinel, but honestly have always avoided Regen (I keep hearing they are going to nerf it...)  I have run a few Willpower Sents.  On a Beam Rifle/Will Sent it was insanely fun run.  Until 50, then you realize you are doing meh team help.  I can run a Brute and "pretend" I am helping.  Sometimes I even rescue a teammate who is not where they are supposed to be. (Which I can do on a good Blaster 75% time...) But after running "real" Blasters and Corruptors it is hard to sit on a Sentinel and sandpaper away at enemies.

 

Off-topic but when they buffed the Sentinel AT, I think its Team viability went way up.  The Vulnerability debuff and damage changes help a lot.

[Blackjoy]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

I hate to say this, but the fact you see that as a "flex" for the set is downright adorable

Except I'm not trying to "flex", so your comment says more about you than me.   I have no love for /Regen.  I had a Claws/Regen on live and I never got it past 30.  I didn't have any /Regens on HC until someones (some of which are in this thread) started spouting off about how /Regen sucks worse than /SR.   So I went and actually....you know....tested them.   I had no a priori expectations for /Regen.   Contrast that with many people here who are griping about /Regen back on Live before the nerfs.  Of course, if that's your standard, then every scrapper secondary sucks, not just /Regen.

 

What I am trying to do is counter the misinformation about /Regen that comes up in every one of these discussions, namely that /Regen sucks because people can't solo 4x8 with the same investment that they put into /SR or /Shield or /Invul. 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

To add to that, saying that tough and weave were never "intended" for scrappers to use is baffling

Except I never said that in this thread.  So now you're putting words in my mouth because you have an agenda and you're trying to spin it.  But I am skeptical the devs designed the Fighting Pool expecting Scrappers to take it.  I could be wrong.  Either way, it's irrelevant.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

As someone who does not consider my character complete till they can comfortably solo most groups at 4x8

Exactly.  For those of you following the thread...this is where the /Regen sucks people all camp out at.  Let me clue you into something.  The game isn't ever going to be balanced around anyone being able to solo 4x8.   Nor should it.   The developers are never going to modify a set because a BUILD (not a secondary) can solo 4x8 for 300m and another one takes 500m....and they both require Mids to figure it out.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

saying 95% is from outside their secondary is absolutely ridiculous, or else secondary choice would barely matter.

It sounds ridiculous when you're wholly ignorant of how the math works in this game.  Secondaries, largely don't matter.   Builds matter.  There are any number of Defender, Controller, Tanker, Mastermind, Blaster builds that can solo 4x8.  Some do it faster than others, but many can do it.   /Regen can do it, it just takes a lot of more effort and money than most.  Far beyond what the average player is going to invest.   And that's true for all the 4x8 builds...unless you're using someone else's build and your farming to get your csh.  Neither of these things are what the game is ever going to be balanced around.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

If that was even remotely the case wouldn't that make regen better then the rest, as it's "more powerful" without outside mitigation.

Again, this statement is born from  ignorance on how the game is designed.   +DEF is the THE most effective method of mitigation until you start getting into 4* TFs and running 802 missions.    But this is only true because there is so much off-set +DEF you can grab.  Without power pools and Set IOs offering +DEF, nobody would be talking about how great /SR and shield are.

 

+RES works great as well....but you'll kindly note there are NO pure +RES sets.  Any +RES set also tacks on other forms of mitigation in the form of +Heal +Hit Points +DEF +Regen, etc.   +DEF is so effective that for years, /SR only had +DEF.   It wasn't until many of us complained about /SR having no other form of mitigation that they added the scalling +RES...which you can't boost and is largely useless against +4 AVs/EBs...and still doesn't work against Psi or Toxic.

 

I will say that in teams with lots mitigation, like Bubbles or Ice Armor, etc.  /Regen is dominant because no other set can get comparable amounts of +Heal  +Regen.  So in a team seting, /Regen has a much higher ceiling than /SR or /Ninjitsu.  But now, with Set IO's and Incarnates, you don't need support unless you're running 4* TFs.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

Regen being considered bad isn't a new thing, it's been considered that ways since IH got nerfed effectively, long before IOs and incarnates.

That's right.  IH as a toggle was essentially "God Mod."  I was there, I saw it in action.   So of course people are going to complain about that being taken away and bemoan the fact that it's never coming back.  That doesn't mean the complaints are valid in the context of what CoH is about.  What's ridiculous is people are refusing to accept how problematic that was for the game.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

To say "a small vocal minority of players" are calling it bad is just incorrect,

It's not.  The amount of people who complained and are still complaining about /Regen sucking are probably 1% of the total player population.   But they  come out in force whenever someone asks about /Regen.

 

/Regen doesn't even remotely suck for doing what scrappers are designed to do.  But it does require a specific playstyle that not everyone either enjoys or is good at.   There are a lot of AT's and sets I don't like and am not effective with.  For me, I feel they suck.  But that is a subjective opinion, not an empirical one.  

 

/Regen isn't ideal for soloing 4x8.  But the set is never going to be balanced around doing that content.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

 started spouting off about how /Regen sucks worse than /SR. 

 

 

I love SR, it's actually my favorite Stalker and Scrapper Secondary. As far as I am concerned, Regen doesn't even come close to SR...not even remotely close. I guess SR isn't for everybody...

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Exactly.  For those of you following the thread...this is where the /Regen sucks people all camp out at.  Let me clue you into something.  The game isn't ever going to be balanced around anyone being able to solo 4x8.   Nor should it.   The developers are never going to modify a set because a BUILD (not a secondary) can solo 4x8 for 300m and another one takes 500m....and they both require Mids to figure it out.

 

Then clearly every power in game is by far overpowered and should be nerfed to be in line with Regen then. Hell, that's the best idea I have heard all day, thanks for pointing that out. You're not so bad after all! I think I'm going to end up really liking you.

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

That's right.  IH as a toggle was essentially "God Mod."  I was there, I saw it in action.

IH as a toggle was 'God mode' when the devs tested it on their internal test server and found that a Claws/Regen Scrapper could solo +8 content... without realizing that the internal test server didn't have the 'purple patch' incorporated, so their test character was doing 10x the damage, hitting 10x as often, and taking 1/10 the damage it should have -- and rebuilt Regen based on those test results.

 

Now, I will admit that Regen as it was built was balanced around SOs and HOs, when the ability of a Regen Scrapper to build in significant Resistance and Defense was limited, and was going to need rebalancing after the introduction of Inventions, but I feel that the devs took a brute force "have to fix it fast" approach based on their internal test -- and then continued to implement that hack job even after they'd admitted that their testing was done on a server whose environment didn't match Live. But they should have taken the time to do it more cleanly.