Benefits to going above the soft-cap for Defense?

[Story Archer]

I understand that most power sets do not provide a great deal of resistance to Defense De-Buffs, and going above the soft-cap of 45% can be beneficial in that case.

 

What I don't understand is what benefit it provides apart from that, which is to say that I don't fully understand all the nuances of how Accuracy / ToHit works, especially with regards to relative level between the attacker and the defender. If you are regularly battling foes who are 3 or 4 levels higher than you, does the level difference affect the calculations in such a way that you're really not at the Defense soft-cap, you're actually much lower?

 

At the moment I'm working on a Tanker build (Willpower/) that puts me right at the defense soft-cap for S/L, E/NE, F/C and Psy, but I'm only just there. I'm trying to decide between a final set that will either grant +5 Def to E/NE, F/C and Psy bringing them from 45% to 50% OR a set that will grant a host of other useful benefits that I'd much rather gain if it turns out that I've reached the point of diminishing returns when it comes to buffing my defense (Apocalypse vs. Superior Winter's Bite). It's not just that scenario though, otherwise I'd be on the Tanker forum - the question is applicable to a broader understanding of how defense works and any future builds I might try to put together.

[FupDup]

There are two situations to consider:

 

A. Incarnate content has a much higher softcap at 58.75%. 

 

B. Going over either softcap (normal or incarnate) can give you a little extra wiggle room against defense debuffs. 

 

Most people say "lol no never do it." My stupid opinion is that if you can go a little over without making overly large sacrifices, it's fine to do so. Especially if your armor set doesn't have high resists or other "layers" to fall back on besides raw defense (resist sets probably should never consider the incarnate cap and don't usually even need to hit the normal one either).

 

It also depends on how much you plan to solo vs. teaming (if teaming it doesn't matter much because other people can carry you, but it can help solo, especially if doing the aforementioned incarnate stuff solo or fighting groups with lots of debuffs). 

Edited October 1, 2023 by FupDup

[Story Archer]

2 minutes ago, FupDup said:

There are two situations to consider:

 

A. Incarnate content has a much higher softcap at 58.75%. 

 

B. Going over either softcap (normal or incarnate) can give you a little extra wiggle room against defense debuffs. 

 

Most people say "lol no never do it." My stupid opinion is that if you can go a little over without making overly large sacrifices, it's fine to do so. Especially if your armor set doesn't have high resists or other "layers" to fall back on besides raw defense (resist sets probably should never consider the incarnate cap and don't usually even need to hit the normal one either). It also depends on how much you plan to solo vs. teaming (if teaming it doesn't matter much but it can help solo, especially if doing the aforementioned incarnate stuff solo). 

For the purposes of this discussion, let's exclude Incarnate abilities.

 

So, discounting Defense De-Buffs, if I've got 45% Defense it doesn't really make a difference if I'm being attacked by an even-level foe or a +4 level foe, I've gotten the full defensive benefit I can?

[FupDup]

3 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

For the purposes of this discussion, let's exclude Incarnate abilities.

 

So, discounting Defense De-Buffs, if I've got 45% Defense it doesn't really make a difference if I'm being attacked by an even-level foe or a +4 level foe, I've gotten the full defensive benefit I can?

Enemies will always have a minimum of 5% chance to hit you no matter how high you push your defenses. The only purpose of going over the softcap is to build a buffer against debuffs (or hit the incarnate cap). 

 

Another point I forgot to mention is that the AT probably affects this comparison too. As a WP tanker, you're going to have very high HP, resists, and regen so that you probably don't have much reason to go over the cap. On a class with lower HP/resists it might be more useful. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by FupDup

[Story Archer]

2 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Enemies will always have a minimum of 5% chance to hit you no matter how high you push your defenses. The only purpose of going over the softcap is to build a buffer against debuffs (or hit the incarnate cap). 

 

Another point I forgot to mention is that the AT probably affects this comparison too. As a tanker, you're going to have very high HP and resists so that you probably don't have much reason to go over the cap. On a class with lower HP/resists it might be more useful. 

Gotcha. I didn't know if 45% was 45% against even-level foes but was maybe 42.5% against +1's, 40% against +2's , etc., so I would need to go over the soft-cap to ensure that +4's continued to only have a 5% chance to hit me.

[WumpusRat]

For defense-focused builds, I almost always aim to get as close as I can to the incarnate softcap, since I like running the incarnate content. It's more challenging than endlessly farming Council in PI.

 

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Story Archer said:

What I don't understand is what benefit it provides apart from that

If you look at this page on the Wiki, enemies higher level than you will have a greater chance to hit, so that "50% chance to be hit" will actually be higher, vs a +4, and even more so if they are of LT, Boss, or any higher rank...

[Story Archer]

13 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

For defense-focused builds, I almost always aim to get as close as I can to the incarnate softcap, since I like running the incarnate content. It's more challenging than endlessly farming Council in PI.

 

I can appreciate that perspective, I'm just trying to find out how the mechanic actually works, more than the best way to build various power sets. Too many subjective factors come into that.

 

FWIW, I can't technically call this a 'defense-focused' build. It's definitely as mutli-layered as it comes...

 

Defense:

• S/L - 44.8%
• E/N - 45.0%
• F/C - 45.0%
• PSI - 43.9%
• TX - 21.1%

Resistance:

• S/L - 90% (91.8%)
• E/N - 20.6%
• F/C - 36.4%
• PSI - 67.4%
• TX - 34.1%

Max HP: 2919

 

Healing:

• 1 Foe in melee range: 542%
• 2 Foes in melee range: 589%
• 3 Foes in melee range: 636%
• 10 Foes in melee range: 965%

Darkest Night + Rise to the Challenge (AoE toggles):

• All foes suffer in area suffer -18.5% ToHit DeBuff and -30% Damage DeBuff

 

 

 

[Story Archer]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

If you look at this page on the Wiki, enemies higher level than you will have a greater chance to hit, so that "50% chance to be hit" will actually be higher, vs a +4, and even more so if they are of LT, Boss, or any higher rank...

Thanks - that's what I was trying to figure out. So straight up, without worrying about Defense DeBuffs, when fighting higher level foes you benefit directly by exceeding the soft-cap.

[Hedgefund]

Might want to re-read.  For the moment let's ignore DefDebuffs.  Specifically look at the table named "Level-Based Accuracy and ToHit Modifiers
for Critters Attacking Players"

 

 

Their to-hit modifier doesn't change but the accuracy for level difference does.  

 

Meaning, in a straightforward encounter (no def debuffs on you, no enemy to-hit buffs) against a +3 with 45% def you get

(50 - 45 ) * 1.3.

 

No additional def is going to modify that parenthetical part.  

 

So when people talk about a min of 5% chance to hit, it's really 5% * accModifier.  For +3s that means they'll have a minimum 6.5% chance to hit (5 * 1.3).  I'm not going to paste it but note the next table named "Rank-Based Accuracy Multipliers for Critters Attacking Anything" so lieuts and above get additional acc modifiers.  Again, no def is going to counter that.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Hedgefund

[WumpusRat]

4 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

So when people talk about a min of 5% chance to hit, it's really 5% * accModifier.  For +3s that means they'll have a minimum 6.5% chance to hit (5 * 1.3).  I'm not going to paste it but note the next table named "Rank-Based Accuracy Multipliers for Critters Attacking Anything" so lieuts and above get additional acc modifiers.  Again, no def is going to counter that.

Yeah, I believe bosses have something like a 9.25% or so chance to hit you regardless of how much defense you have. I remember testing it with my SR tanker one night (she's got around 60% defense to all positionals), and while the rank and file +4 minions only had a 5% to hit, the bosses had a bit over 9%. 

[SwitchFade]

Over cap is really good against def debuff.

 

Also, keep in mind that WP is easily gutted when faced with Regen debuff, so you can't rely on it and want as much def/res layering as you can with balance 

 

I've pushed WP to it's extreme and any foe that hits you with -regen just neuters the set.

[Story Archer]

13 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Over cap is really good against def debuff.

 

Also, keep in mind that WP is easily gutted when faced with Regen debuff, so you can't rely on it and want as much def/res layering as you can with balance 

 

I've pushed WP to it's extreme and any foe that hits you with -regen just neuters the set.

What enemies tend to feature Regen DeBuff?

 

I get that Regen is a big part of what Willpower does, but I wouldn't call soft-capped Defenses and 90% S/L Resistance exactly neutered...

[SwitchFade]

18 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

What enemies tend to feature Regen DeBuff?

 

I get that Regen is a big part of what Willpower does, but I wouldn't call soft-capped Defenses and 90% S/L Resistance exactly neutered...

WP offers no def debuff, and S/L is not a coverall.

 

I've pushed WP tanks, brutes and scraps as maxed as they can be and when the Regen debuff hits, the set folds much faster than Invuln, Stone, Shield, EA, Rad or Dark 

 

On the other hand, it's a very beginner friendly set and no maintenance; the trade off is, it doesn't reach the heights of other sets, which is ok. It is what it is, a set and forget beginner to intermediate set.

 

As for which foes do -regen, I would have to look it up again, but quite a few late game do, I found the set lacking in end game content ability 

Edited October 2, 2023 by SwitchFade

[WumpusRat]

1 hour ago, Story Archer said:

What enemies tend to feature Regen DeBuff?

 

I get that Regen is a big part of what Willpower does, but I wouldn't call soft-capped Defenses and 90% S/L Resistance exactly neutered...

Vhaz, Arachnos, Longbow, Carnies, Malta, and Banished Pantheon are ones I can think of off the top of my head. I think some Nemesis might be able to as well, though I don't fight them enough to know for sure.

 

And as SwitchFade said, Willpower has zero defense debuff resist, meaning the moment an enemy tags you with a debuff your defense crumbles. And while smash/lethal being capped is good against groups that only deal that kind of damage, Willpower doesn't really have much else in the way of resists other than psi. Fire and energy are two other extremely common damage types, and Willpower doesn't offer much resistance to them at all. My heavily tricked out Willpower brute gets absolutely MELTED by Banished Pantheon out in DA, because her non-physical resists are only around 50-60%. 

[Snarky]

[ScarySai]

Overpowering tohit buffs or higher difficulty settings, having a buffer for defense debuffs, and because monkebrain likes bigger numbers.

[Snarky]

Softcap Defense is good.  Depending on your AT/Build/Powersets it can be VERY good, or good, or meh not bad.   This depends on the type of Def you softcap, your play strategies, any synergies between your powers and that defense, and (of course) defense debuff resistance. It is NEVER bad.

 

Softcap Defense is a build goal.  That will eat up valuable slots and choices as you place I/O enhancements.  So the question becomes how much more resources you want to devote.  The question should not be is more than softcap defense good. That answer is always yes.  

 

The question is "Will adding more Defense past softcap to this particular AT/Powerset combo be worth the I/O enhancement investment?"  

 

I would venture the response.  F-ing rarely.  If you are building a toon for pure incarnate content where higher than traditional softcap is necessary, you are almost always on a league throwing around defense buffs like crazy. After making the necessary I/O picks to get softcap defense you are probably neglecting a few other build goals that your AT/powersets might want/need.  Should you completely neglect those build goals to chase an elusive number that may or may not be necessary?  Maybe if you build a toon to solo incarnate content.  That is the only reason I could think of.  There are probably a few more.  I am not massively creative until after I drop my 2nd or 3rd cup...  

[Andreah]

The thing about even small defense debuffs when you are just barely over the softcap is that each one makes the next more likely. You're cruising around great with only your 5% chance to be hit, and then something hits you and debuffs your defense by, say, 5%. It took a while for that attack to land. But now, you have a ten% chance of being hit. The next 5% debuff is likely to hit in half the time. And then you're 15% likely to be hit, and the third one lands even faster. Before you know it, your defense is below zero and romans or whoever are chopping you to bits. This is commonly called Cascading Defense Failure, or CDF.

 

If your defense is above the softcap by some modest margin, you can take a hit or two and not get into a CDF situation, and possibly stay above the softcap long enough for the earliest debuffs that hit you to expire.

[Scarlet Shocker]

On 10/3/2023 at 10:22 AM, Snarky said:

 

 

I bought myself a new Legolas amplifier the other day. It goes up to elven

[aethereal]

On 10/1/2023 at 3:21 PM, Story Archer said:

For the purposes of this discussion, let's exclude Incarnate abilities.

 

So, discounting Defense De-Buffs, if I've got 45% Defense it doesn't really make a difference if I'm being attacked by an even-level foe or a +4 level foe, I've gotten the full defensive benefit I can?

 

45% defense gives you the most defense you can get, against opponents that do not have to-hit buffs.

 

Enemies do not get to-hit buffs for being +1 to +4 to you, and they do not get to hit buffs for rank (that is to say, lt/boss/ev/av).

 

Enemies do get to-hit buffs for being incarnate or hard mode.

 

Some enemies also just get to hit buffs from their powers (or the powers of their allies).  This is fairly rare, though far from unknown.  For example, Nemesis Lts give to-hit buffs to their allies when they die.  The quartz pet gives to-hit buffs to Devouring Earth.

 

So the upshot: having above 45% defense does not help you against normal bosses or normal +4 enemies, except as buffer for defense debuffs.  It can help you against a smattering of enemies who get to-hit buffs.

 

Just trying to clearly answer your initial question.

[Frozen Burn]

@Story Archer, if you, as a Tanker are at/near the defense soft cap - you're fine.  You have other layers of defenses to compensate.  Don't forget, you have inspirations you can take to fill in the occasional gap when needed.  Just one small purple insp can carry you far for the time you need.  So, I would opt for your other set bonuses and take the benefits you'd rather have.  

[Gobbledigook]

45% soft cap will do for most normal content. Higher more difficult content will find more Def debuffs/to-hit debuffs and more accurate mobs but also keep in mind you will probably be teamed and buffed even more with +defense/resists etc. Quite often just chaining Barrier.

 

For Willpower i would say 45% defense is good and maybe build some more resists instead of more Def. Without decent DDR, the Defense will get stripped anyway, probably.

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

 

I bought myself a new Legolas amplifier the other day. It goes up to elven

Been studying German since march.  1 = eins, 2 = zwei, 3, =Drei, .... 11 = Elf.  I shit you not.

[Story Archer]

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

45% defense gives you the most defense you can get, against opponents that do not have to-hit buffs.

 

Enemies do not get to-hit buffs for being +1 to +4 to you, and they do not get to hit buffs for rank (that is to say, lt/boss/ev/av).

 

Enemies do get to-hit buffs for being incarnate or hard mode.

 

Some enemies also just get to hit buffs from their powers (or the powers of their allies).  This is fairly rare, though far from unknown.  For example, Nemesis Lts give to-hit buffs to their allies when they die.  The quartz pet gives to-hit buffs to Devouring Earth.

 

So the upshot: having above 45% defense does not help you against normal bosses or normal +4 enemies, except as buffer for defense debuffs.  It can help you against a smattering of enemies who get to-hit buffs.

 

Just trying to clearly answer your initial question.

 

This is exactly what I was looking for, clearly and concisely - thank you so much. 

 

And thank you everyone for taking the time to answer on this thread. I love how helpful and knowledgeable this community is.