Focused Feedback: Co-Op Striga Isle & New Story Arcs

[csr]

It looks as if the Velho issue has been resolved.  I've played up to Mage-Killer Tatiana and so far my only new feedback is a minor grammar issue.

 

Orpheus - The Most Dangerous Prey - Part 3

 

Orpheus says, "Look for the fetters binding Velho's spirit to this world and destroy it."

 

In this "fetters" (plural) and "it" (singular) don't match grammatically.  There used to be 3 fetters, of course, so I think the term is used elsewhere, so I'd just suggest changing "it" to "them".

[twozerofoxtrot]

I guess it's not really a big deal bit it seems a little incongruous that the Infotab for the Holy Shotgun Shells still references Tobias Hansen, rather than Orpheus.

 

 

As an aside, and totally not the reason for me making this post, those used to be available on the Paragon market. 

Boy, it sure would be swell if we could buy them as a temp power from the P2W vendor...
Dontcha think?

[twozerofoxtrot]

The highlighted portion below is a nice touch to help differentiate the two. I know at one point in learning the lore of the game I thought they might be related.

However there is a minor capitalization error, circled.

[Taxes]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:09 PM, Lazarillo said:

The setup here is not good.  Now, granted, I haven't gotten to the remaining arcs yet, and it's quite possible that this is going to go somewhere pretty fun and interesting (or at least build off of it while maintaining the classic/simple vibe I liked from it), but just going "anyway, so here you are taking a job from a Nazi guy" is not how these arcs need to start.

 

This is something I'm going to echo for entirely different reasons. Even outside of the concept of "my villain/rogue isn't actually evil enough to work with Nazis", this is just not a group that needs to be given more screen-time in the game specifically because they are Nazis. Not even an analogy like Council. There's a reason they got mostly excised from the game fairly early on -- it was in poor taste then, and it's still in poor taste now. There's enough other enemy groups in the game that this shouldn't be necessary.

[Dispari]

[csr]

10 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Fun Facts for the audience!

• "Fetters" when referring to multiple restraints in metaphor is proper use of grammar.
• "Velho" is Portuguese for "old" and is often used to mean "Old Man." Depending on the context, this can be derogatory or endearing.

 

Metaphor or not has nothing to do with it.  If you're referring to destroying multiple fetters it should be "them" not "it".  If you are referring to destroying a single collection of fetters, then "it" is fine.  To me I think "them" sounds better than "it" unless you refer to something like "cask of fetters" or the like.  But maybe I just have the idea that "fetters" is plural because there used to be 3 of them you had to destroy.  It got changed because the mechanics didn't work and Velho ended up with such insane Regeneration in that version that the only way to beat him was to one-shot him.

[twozerofoxtrot]

13 hours ago, csr said:

If you're referring to destroying multiple fetters it should be "them" not "it".

 

The 'it' in the dialog is referring to spirit, Velho. 

Look for the fetters (which bind your target, metaphor; fetters are chains for detaining or binding a prisoner), and destroy it (Velho).

Now, I think there's an argument for the employment of the verbiage 'fetters' here, as the Shadow Crystal is not imprisioning, but rather anchoring Velho.


Or, just re-write the entire clause. It's obviously caused some confusion one way or another.

Edited January 25 by twozerofoxtrot

[Ruin Mage]

22 hours ago, Taxes said:

There's a reason they got mostly excised from the game fairly early on -- it was in poor taste then, and it's still in poor taste now.

I do want to make a note that the 5th Column came back a number of times.. Once with the Khan/Baracudda Task/Strike Force and again with Dark Astoria's Incarnate Arcs. I also point to the Imperious Task Force.

It's not a group that needs to be disappeared anymore - especially if you understand that both the Column and Council are fascist groups and not nazi groups. Paragon Studios understood this:

The excision was from Issue 3 to Issue 11. After which they were fully brought back into the game.

In fact:


https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/5th_Column_Controversy

Edited January 25 by Ruin Mage

[Dispari]

I don't think 5th existing so we can beat them up is a problem, but working for Nazis comes across as an uncomfortable endorsement and is a red flag.

[Ruin Mage]

Quote

Formed in 1938 by the fascists Requiem, Vandal and Nosferatu, the 5th Column is an organization that has gone through a great deal of change. From their early days fighting the First Hero Brigade to their rebirth during the Rikti Invasion, they have always been one of the most insidious threats in Paragon City. It's truly ironic that their biggest defeat was at the hands of enemies from within. The Center and his Council cronies beat the 5th Column at their own game, or so it would appear. Not all the loyalists were subsumed by the Council's takeover, and it's only a matter of time before a strong leader brings the 5th Column back to power.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/5th_Column

I urge some reading comprehension. The 5th Column are German-named enemies run by an Italian fascist who seeks to turn Earth into a Nictus homeworld.

Not a single Nazi ideal or thought can, to my knowledge, be attributed to the 5th Column. Nor does their imagery invoke the typical image of a Nazi. People are associating the naming scheme to being Nazis. Which is REALLY REALLY bad to do.

Edited January 25 by Ruin Mage

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Ruin Mage said:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/5th_Column

I urge some reading comprehension. The 5th Column are German-named enemies run by an Italian fascist who seeks to turn Earth into a Nictus homeworld.

Not a single Nazi ideal or thought can, to my knowledge, be attributed to the 5th Column. Nor does their imagery invoke the typical image of a Nazi. People are associating the naming scheme to being Nazis. Which is REALLY REALLY bad to do.

 

I personally think they were meant to be more of a PG-13 stand in for them yet seperated enough to where someone wouldn’t go “they’re just copying nazis”.

 

I don’t necessarily disagree with you but I also can see where people come from with the 5th. 
 

Plus I doubt Paragon or HC would directly attribute hardcore nazi ideals to the 5th, but it doesn’t(or shouldn’t. Im talking CoH players here so maybe it does) take a rocket scientist to see the parallels.

[Ruin Mage]

Anyone trying to equate fascism with Nazis is...not worth the time.

Both the 5th Column and the Council are fascist groups to reiterate. Requiem is a fascist. His group, the 5th Column, is specifically written as a group of super-powered fascists led/founded by fascists.

I have linked and shown this in my previous two replies. Including in the controversy page which has the direct response from Matt Miller on why they did it.

There are no parellels. Inserting them yourself does not make them exist.

Edited January 25 by Ruin Mage

[Starforge]

I just want to run the arc to get the badge lol. I don’t plan to have any character that does it work for a 5th Column character ICly. That kind of foolishness is for the birds.

[KaizenSoze]

Pointing out that Mercy has that horrible Lt. Harris arc. Where you help him stalk and kill his ex-girlfriend which directly helps Arachnos.

 

That arc and the Striga arcs are optional.

[America's Angel]

While it's true that the Fifth Column wasn't directly founded by the German National Socialist party, I'm not entirely sure that discounts them as being Nazis (or at the very least, Neo-Nazis). Mainly because Nazism is also a political ideology, as well as the name of a group. The lore document seems to support this theory, it has Requiem meeting with Hitler, carrying out his orders, and even frequently refers to the Fifth Column directly as Nazis. (It uses phrases like "The Nazi attack on..." instead of "The Axis attack on..." or "The Fifth Column attack on..." when refering to the Fifth Column's actions.) Also, in the "Beliefs" section of the lore document, it specifically states that the Fifth Column preaches that the US Government is "[...]morally bankrupt because it recognizes the rights of women, gays, and non-whites". This is Nazism, verbatim.

From the background section of th Fifth Column page of the Homecoming Wiki. (Emphasis mine):

 

Before they were taken over by the Council, The Fifth Column stood as the last remaining threat from World War II, a group of super powered fascists still fighting a war the rest of the world left behind fifty years ago. The Fifth Column has the nefarious distinction of actually triggering the United States' involvement in the war against Nazi Germany. Hitler first sent the covert super team to Paragon City in 1939, tasked with spying on and sabotaging US shipping and naval development.
 

In 1941, as the navy's Atlantic Fleet mustered in Paragon Harbor with a convoy of supply vessels destined for England, the Fifth Column struck. The attack force destroyed dozens of ships and injured thousands before they withdrew into hiding. The Nazi spies spent the rest of the war wreaking havoc up and down the Eastern seaboard, fighting countless skirmishes with America's own heroes. Under the leadership of the ruthless and deadly Requiem, the Fifth Column killed hundreds and cost the US millions in war materials. In the closing months of the war they became desperate and careless, and heroes like The Statesman brought most of the covert cadre to justice.

 

--

 

Reichsmann, the group's former leader, is from Axis America. From his bio on the Homecoming wiki:

The Reichsman, an alternate version of Statesman, led the Amerika Korps, an elite super powered hero organization that helped preserve Nazi rule over the former United States in a dimension explored by Brian Webb. Intrigued by these other-worldly interlopers, The Reichsman captured Dr. Webb and his explorers, tortured them to death, and ended up extracting a great deal of data about Webb's home dimension. Data is all well and good, but the Reichsman decided he wanted to see for himself, and so he led Amerika Korps through the portal and back to Paragon City.

 

Based on the above, I wouldn't want to say that the Fifth Column were just fascists who were aligned with the Nazis and did their bidding. Much like modern-day Neo-Nazis, they believed in the ideology of Nazism, even if they weren't members of a German Political party formed in the 1920s. This belief in Nazism typically is what defines someone as a Nazi. At least post-WW2.

That's just my interpretation on it, though. I imagine others may differ.

In terms of actual Focused Feedback, though - perhaps use this new contact as a chance to clear this all up? Maybe change the modern-day story slightly, saying that the modern-day Fifth Column has moved on from "putting up with" or "giving lip service to" the beliefs of their "former allies" in Germany? You could even riff on Homelander, here. In The Boys comic, there's a line where Homelander reveals he's not racist...but only because he views all of humanity as equally beneath him. So, the idea of placing humans on a hierarchy based on race is absurd to him. I imagine Requiem and the other Nictus types would view humanity the same way. If you took this approach, then the idea that the Fifth Column never really believed in Nazism (because they saw it as beneath them) could make a lot of sense, story-wise. That the Fifth Column used the Nazis to get what they wanted, but ultimately didn't share their White Supremecist views, would make them a great deal more palatable as contacts to do missions for.

Just a thought. This could be a chance to "turn a bug into a feature" as they say.

**EDITED TO ADD**
For those interested, see attached for the CoH lore bible. It has lots of detail on the Fifth Column's Nazi ties.

CoHBible.pdf

Edited January 25 by America's Angel

[Ruin Mage]

22 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Reichsmann, the group's new leader, is from Axis America

Quick correction. As of Dark Astoria (which is the last time we see him + Requiem before shutdown) he's now considerably depowered and Requiem (A Fascist who was notably a Mussolini lapdog) is back in charge. Requiem, in this cutscene, is even stronger than before I believe.

This happens in Max's arc when you're retrieving members of Malta from sticky situations.

I know too much about this game, help me.

 

[lemming]

12 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

Quick correction. As of Dark Astoria (which is the last time we see him + Requiem before shutdown) he's now considerably depowered and Requiem (A Fascist who was notably a Mussolini lapdog) is back in charge. Requiem, in this cutscene, is even stronger than before I believe.

This happens in Max's arc when you're retrieving members of Malta from sticky situations.

I know too much about this game, help me.

Beat me to it...    It should be noted if you do that Max mission at "No Boss when Solo", Requiem is a boss, while Reichsman is an Elite Boss.  (Based on cutscene and such, I think it should be swapped)

[America's Angel]

28 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

Quick correction. As of Dark Astoria (which is the last time we see him + Requiem before shutdown) he's now considerably depowered and Requiem (A Fascist who was notably a Mussolini lapdog) is back in charge. Requiem, in this cutscene, is even stronger than before I believe.

This happens in Max's arc when you're retrieving members of Malta from sticky situations.

I know too much about this game, help me.

Good catch! Edited.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

While it's true that the Fifth Column wasn't directly founded by the German National Socialist party...

Originally they were, and the Requiem and Fascist thing was a retcon. Either way they were a Nazi Super Group who took their orders directly from Der Führer.

 

4 hours ago, Dispari said:

I don't think 5th existing so we can beat them up is a problem, but working for Nazis comes across as an uncomfortable endorsement and is a red flag.

Don't play this story arc if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

My villains are members of the VG The Fifth Column: Warwolf Division. This VG was started on Virtue back around Issue 8 or so, back before the Fifth Column returned, and are currently on Torchbearer. They were a division of the Fifth Column that survived the war against The Center and went into hiding.

 

That being said I in no way endorse or condone The Fifth Column's beliefs or Nazi beliefs. Sometimes it's fun to play the villain in a video game specifically because I would never act like that in real life. Not because I'm afraid to, but because I see those beliefs and actions as evil and I choose to not be evil.

 

Having villainous video game characters and teaming up with other bad guys isn't endorsing their actions. I used to play GTA all the time, IRL I would never condone stealing someone's car. And what exactly does "red flag" even mean in this context? Does that mean I have to sit in a penalty box for 3 minutes if I like this story arc?

[Lazarillo]

2 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Pointing out that Mercy has that horrible Lt. Harris arc. Where you help him stalk and kill his ex-girlfriend which directly helps Arachnos.

 

That arc and the Striga arcs are optional.

You also have the option to call Harris out for this and/or betray him yourself. If players could similarly kill Strax and keep all the stuff you took, that'd be acceptable.

 

And for that matter, Harris is also optional (as is all content), but if you find him distasteful and choose not to work with hom, it doesn't matter because he's the last arc in a chain, so thr choice does not cut you out of anything else. If you don't want to help nazis, you don't get to do Striga at all.

Edited January 25 by Lazarillo

[Taxes]

On 1/25/2024 at 8:26 AM, Ruin Mage said:

It's not a group that needs to be disappeared anymore - especially if you understand that both the Column and Council are fascist groups and not nazi groups. Paragon Studios understood this:

 

Paragon's intention with the group is 100% irrelevant, for one. I'm speaking purely from a "should Nazis continue to be glorified in a modern video game" standpoint.

 

Also, I understand that both are fascist groups. That's fine. Especially as an enemy group, it makes sense in the general theme and history of comic books. But I will correct you on one point: the 5th Column are 100% actual Nazis, with direct historical ties to Hitler. From their wiki entry (emphasis mine):

 

Before they were taken over by the Council, The Fifth Column stood as the last remaining threat from World War II, a group of super powered fascists still fighting a war the rest of the world left behind fifty years ago. The Fifth Column has the nefarious distinction of actually triggering the United States' involvement in the war against Nazi Germany. Hitler first sent the covert super team to Paragon City in 1939, tasked with spying on and sabotaging US shipping and naval development.

 

I won't debate the nuances of having them as an enemy group at all. But absolutely players should not be encouraged to interact with a group of literal Nazis in a supporting role (ie. doing missions for this contact).

[Lunar Ronin]

Villains shouldn't interact with other villains is certainly a new one.  If you don't like it, you don't have to play it.

[Super Atom]

Buried Secrets:

 

I think overall, as an introduction arc it does the job of introducing enemy groups on Striga quite well, however the arc itself is a little bare. The choice of villain group used to me is only really an issue because the contact isn't really living up to the villain group he's apart of.

 

 

In the intro he says right away "Our presence on the Island should remain a secret". To me, this part should be the first big hint that at the end the 5th column member is going to try and kill you to ensure nobody directly is aware of their involvement. That is probably what the 5th would do anyway. Further in the arc, he makes note of

 

 

The motivation for the villain taking on the job is entirely money based. The Reichsman strikeforce is basically a larger scale version and the villains main motivation for going after Reichsman once betrayed is entirely money based again. This to me is more than enough given the world City of Heroes takes place in, it's extremely different from our own.

 

From the Baracuda SF "I can't believe we got cheated out of our payment by that Reichsman clown, Character. We gotta do something about this, especially since it sounds like those 5th Column chumps are gunning for us. I've been reading over that information you found, and it sounds like Reichsman is planning something big back in Boomtown. We can get our revenge by messing with Reichsman's invasion."

 

Much like in that Strikeforce, I believe the ending to the storyarc should be betrayal once again. In the Buried Secrets finale, when you're sent into the 5th column base that is entirely  robots, when you finish the objective, in my opinion, a 5th column kill squad should arrive to dispatch you, even if not directly including the contact. Given most of the conversations you have with him are a tad "Muahaha im evil" toss in a throw away line about "Do you think the 5th would actually allow you to continue living?" or something and the arc's primary issue would be solved. You can keep the final thing you retrieved as the "payment".

 

No friendship with the 5th for anyone, you get to punch more 5th, and they get to live up to their truly evil nature in thinking they can use and kill whoever they please. Unless you intend to keep this contact for further story line involving the player working with the 5th column.

Edited January 26 by Super Atom

[Megawatt]

When did 'Nazis bad, dont work for them' become a point to be argued rather then every one just nodding and going back to punching them ?

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Hey guys!

 

I appreciate that a thread discussing Nazis within the game has not blown up but has been a pretty respectful discussion.  Your concerns have been noted, but I cannot guarantee whether any changes will be made on that issue.  That's a decision for folks higher up the food chain.

 

Since the Nazi point has been made and received, can we go back to testing the arcs and finding other possible bugs and text errors? 

 

Please?

 

Thanks!