Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[EnjoyTheJourney]

20 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

I realize my comment is confusing and vague.
Just to be clear:

Domination for the AT as a whole isn't working consistently on Test.
It works fine on secondaries, but primaries aren't functioning correctly in the current build. 

Ah, got it. Thank you for clarifying.

[LastHumanSoldier]

1 minute ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Ah, got it. Thank you for clarifying.

Captain Powerhouse confirmed it works correctly on the Canister though!

 

[Frosticus]

This is Smoke w/ 125% confuse enhancement + domination

 

[Starhammer]

12 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

Arsenal - No niche, feel free to pretend you can put an answer here

My niche is I'll use it to make a Mandalorian Dom. Cryo hold for carbon freeze projected out of a gun (because it just doesn't fit as well being hand cast as a weaponless set, and I don't want such a thing to be All Ice). Arse Assault will get the bulk of the workload, and I'll just hope the character concept ticks the right feels to make it enjoyable during play. Not like I'm gonna run out of character slots to experiment with. Even then, I don't see myself likely to use this on a Controller 😞

[Jacke]

I did look a teeny bit at Arsenal Control.  I'd likely take Tranquilizer at L1 as a damage power (to use with more damage from Cryo Freeze Ray for a good mez and solid Containment, as well Arcane Bolt...that's going to look weird...something to figure out later).  Kind of disappointing its mez can't be stacked and is so easily broken, really needing Cryo Freeze Ray for that....  Something needs to be done.

 

This is a serious suggestion: Replace Tranquilizer with Toxic Web Beanbag:

• Toxic poisoning after a short delay causes autohit Sleep.
• ToHit roll success gives immediate Smashing and Toxic damage, as well 0.5 KB (or vectored KD), after a short delay Immobilize (I think Mag3 and stackable).

Yes, it is the all-singing-all-dancing mez power (not so much dancing after getting hit with it...or singing while Slept).  But I think it would be fantastic.  And can be balanced.

[OverkillEngine]

Played a Arse/Traps controller for a bit yesterday after the reordering patch, and it does help in that we are not getting stuck with a Faustian choice of two sleeps anymore. And I was able to solo Ok'ish using Cryo and Tranq by chaining them and mostly ignoring the sleep on Tranq. And of course I avoided taking Sleep Grenade since now it's effectively meme tier.

But this just somewhat avoids/papers over a fundamental game design problem with the sleep status effect in that it is generally not group friendly and the times where it helps in a group, nearly any other tool would do the the job better while still being group friendly across a far broader range of circumstances. And with other control sets that have multiple sleep powers, they are arranged in such a way so that sleeps can be avoided entirely on power picks, and/or the sleep is paired with another hard control on the same power and as such is not the main point of the power and not a focal point of its balancing (see: Mind/Illusion).

But the current arrangement of powers forces the issue in a way that is avoided on other sets, so of course it is going to be inciting complaints.

 

So here is a set of non-inclusive/exclusive suggestions:


A) Take a real good look at Mind and Illusion and learn from how they dealt with/avoided the problem with sleeps and use them as a template for a solution. Will likely require a fundamental rework of the set or at least a few of the powers. Not the preferred solution but better than nothing.

B) Globally rework Sleep to make it more group friendly or at least not actively antagonistic to the fast paced gameplay the majority of your playerbase prefers. Some of the older grognards here may remember how HORRIBLE Fear was during the early days of Live. It's going to be on that scale of rework. If you want Sleep to stay breakable, then maybe it needs to come with some sort of benefit for breaking it. My suggestion is slept targets grant the attacker, regardless of AT, an autocrit on them similar to a coup-de-grace in other game systems. That would allow it to be helpful in an AoE heavy composition while keeping it on theme as a breakable mezz.

C) The Sleeps status if itself unchanged, needs to come paired with another effect that is still highly desired across a wide range of content if taking powers with them is unavoidable.

Edited January 29 by OverkillEngine

[Kaballah]

No reservations from me about this set, it looks good. Smoke canister is very interesting, good to see a new form of AOE confuse.

[Jacke]

Great post, @OverkillEngine.

 

27 minutes ago, OverkillEngine said:

Some of the older grognards here may remember how HORRIBLE Fear was during the early days of Live.

 

Quite correct.  The original effect was Afraid, which made the mobs run away.  Around Issue 3, in most powers it was replaced with the effect Fear, which has the mobs perhaps run a short distance, then cower in place.  If under Fear and attacked, the mob either does one counter-attack or runs away for 10s, then cowers in place again.  Fear is referred to as Terrorize in many places, like in the status display underneath the health bar.  Fear powers also include a skull in their icon.  I believe most remaining uses of Afraid are in damage/debuff patches to make the mobs want to leave them.

 

Great idea to do something similar with Sleep to better adapt it to more of the game as it is played now.  Having the attack that breaks Sleep get an auto-crit or breaking Sleep create a short-term -Resist debuff (including for the attack that breaks the Sleep) would help make Sleep more appealing.

 

Edited January 29 by Jacke

[...]

For confuse:

 

If the choice is between a 25% chance to dominate and a shorter recharge, I would take the shorter recharge.

 

If the choice is between 100% chance to dominate and a shorter recharge, I would take the 100% chance to dominate. 

 

I suspect it is meant to be a soft form of control, hence why it was not offered with 100% chance to dominate.

 

For aoe sleep:

 

I think I prefer the sleep patch. 

 

For single target powers:

 

The set is a little light on damage. Wouldn't mind some increased animation speed. 

Edited January 29 by ...
Typo

[Dispari]

3 hours ago, Starhammer said:

My niche is I'll use it to make a Mandalorian Dom. Cryo hold for carbon freeze projected out of a gun (because it just doesn't fit as well being hand cast as a weaponless set, and I don't want such a thing to be All Ice). Arse Assault will get the bulk of the workload, and I'll just hope the character concept ticks the right feels to make it enjoyable during play. Not like I'm gonna run out of character slots to experiment with. Even then, I don't see myself likely to use this on a Controller 😞

What's unfortunate about this is theme is the main driving force for most people to make characters and try something new. But if they're stuck with sub-par sets, they probably won't enjoy their experience and the characters will be dropped. And if nothing substantial about this set is going to change, it's going to launch as a sub-par set.

[Shin Magmus]

I feel pretty safe assuming we aren't going to get any meaningful buffs or changes before this set goes live so I guess we just pack it in and get ready for mediocrity.  Good effort everyone. 

 

I'll just make a final reiteration of my core criticism: Ice Slick and Arctic Air together just beat Liquid Nitrogen and Smoke Canister cleanly in a very obvious 1:1 comparison... and that's the biggest thing that needs addressing.  We're getting "worse Ice Control" and told we have to stack slows to make it work because we aren't allowed to have an AoE Immob... except Ice Control slows movement better, and slows recharge much better, and has an AoE Immob.

 

Theme is the only answer anyone can give as to why someone would willingly play Arse Control in its current state.  I wonder if the timeline of players trying the new set then dropping it entirely will be faster than Seismic Blast or Symph Control?

[MagicalAct]

31 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

I feel pretty safe assuming we aren't going to get any meaningful buffs or changes before this set goes live so I guess we just pack it in and get ready for mediocrity.  Good effort everyone. 

 

I'll just make a final reiteration of my core criticism: Ice Slick and Arctic Air together just beat Liquid Nitrogen and Smoke Canister cleanly in a very obvious 1:1 comparison... and that's the biggest thing that needs addressing.  We're getting "worse Ice Control" and told we have to stack slows to make it work because we aren't allowed to have an AoE Immob... except Ice Control slows movement better, and slows recharge much better, and has an AoE Immob.

 

Theme is the only answer anyone can give as to why someone would willingly play Arse Control in its current state.  I wonder if the timeline of players trying the new set then dropping it entirely will be faster than Seismic Blast or Symph Control?

I'd like to point out that you're making a pretty disingenuous comparison. Arctic Air you have to survive in melee range and all the perils that come with that, especially on certain controller combos without mez protection. Arsenal control can do this all from range. We had a more interesting version with the sleep patch that made the set "The patch control set" until people complained Sleep Grenade's pulse didn't make sense with the dots in the set.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Liquid nitrogen and smoke canister work well from range, which makes arsenal control a much better fit for a fiery assault dom than ice control could ever be. Also, because of endurance concerns for ice control arsenal control might be easier to match with endurance heavy secondaries such as storm or poison. Considering storm, for example, with KB to KD in place mobs would tend to stay in the liquid nitrogen / smoke canister / freezing rain zone and get defeated by multiple tornadoes and lightning storms. 

The set that arsenal control would probably compare relatively poorly to would be plant control. Seeds plus creepers is hands down better than smoke canister plus liquid nitrogen. The synergy from pairing two controls together at the start of many battles is also in a way a drawback of arsenal control, as for plant control creepers are usually already pre-cast and are following the caster, leaving just seeds to be cast on point of contact with a new spawn. 

Edit: Fold space could be really attractive with arsenal control matched with traps, storm, and poison. Once setup has been done just use fold space to keep inviting more mobs to the party. 

Edited January 29 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Shin Magmus]

5 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

LConsidering storm, for example, with KB to KD in place mobs would tend to stay in the liquid nitrogen / smoke canister / freezing rain zone and get defeated by multiple tornadoes and lightning storms. 

I'm not sure if you know this, but Storm Summoning loves getting paired with Immobs more than any other Controller secondary.  Not only does it convert all KBtoKD, which can save you slots in powers like TStorm (although you'll still almost certainly want an IO in Tornado), but it applies Containment damage to most things you're doing while in the Storm DPS mode frenzy.  However, a significant weakness of Storm as a set is that it drives enemies to flee via multiple unavoidable Fear effects tacked onto core powers.  Enemies fleeing and scattering is bad, and Immobs stop this from happening.  Slows just reduced the effect by a % but the enemies are still moving around and making all of your AoEs worse instead of better.

 

I would never pair Storm with a Control set that lacks Immobs: defeats the entire potential of the set.  Pylon Test results don't count because Pylons are permanently Immobilized: those just make my point stronger.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

2 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

I'm not sure if you know this, but Storm Summoning loves getting paired with Immobs more than any other Controller secondary.  Not only does it convert all KBtoKD, which can save you slots in powers like TStorm (although you'll still almost certainly want an IO in Tornado), but it applies Containment damage to most things you're doing while in the Storm DPS mode frenzy.  However, a significant weakness of Storm as a set is that it drives enemies to flee via multiple unavoidable Fear effects tacked onto core powers.  Enemies fleeing and scattering is bad, and Immobs stop this from happening.  Slows just reduced the effect by a % but the enemies are still moving around and making all of your AoEs worse instead of better.

 

I would never pair Storm with a Control set that lacks Immobs: defeats the entire potential of the set.  Pylon Test results don't count because Pylons are permanently Immobilized: those just make my point stronger.

I haven't played storm on a controller for a couple of years and had totally forgotten that key point. You are correct. 

A controller secondary that can provide at least some measure of containment, like TA, might be a better fit for arsenal control. That's a pretty narrow niche, though. 

[arcane]

Lol you don’t need an AoE immobilize to make Storm viable. That’s another noob statement.

[Jacke]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

Lol you don’t need an AoE immobilize to make Storm viable. That’s another noob statement.

 

An AoE Immob may not be necessary to make Storm viable.  But it would likely make it much better.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

15 minutes ago, arcane said:

... you don’t need an AoE immobilize to make Storm viable. 

Come to think of it, my last storm controller that I played for a fair while was illusion / storm. That was a solid endgame build and that character did just fine. It's true that containment isn't required for storm to work well. 

Still, not sure what arsenal control / storm brings to the table that would be meaningfully better than plant / storm (roots FTW!). Shinmagmus does have a point in that /storm tends to be noticeably more damaging when paired with sets that have containment. 

Edited January 29 by EnjoyTheJourney

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Come to think of it, my last storm controller that I played for a fair while was illusion / storm. That was a solid endgame build and that character did just fine. It's true that containment isn't required for storm to work well. 

Still, not sure what arsenal control / storm brings to the table that would be meaningfully better than plant / storm (roots FTW!). Shinmagmus does have a point in that /storm tends to be noticeably more damaging when paired with sets that have containment. 

Well he’s trying to make said point to beat a dead horse. The facts are (1) we’re not getting an AoE immobilize and (2) Ill/Storms, Mind/Storms, Storm Corruptors, Storm Defenders, and Storm Masterminds all demonstrate that that’s okay.

[Spectre7878]

So the bottom line for focused feedback is that the set is what it is and we should just not give feedback. What’s the point of these forums if we are not being heard. With in reason they should try to listen to the players. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Doing a bit of theorycrafting for arsenal / poison ...

Smoke canister to start, reduce mobs' vision.
Start jumping into the center of the spawn with venomous gas activated.
Cast envenom while jumping into the spawn. 
Land, and drop a procc'd up poison trap to damage mobs and trigger confusion. 

Drop liquid nitrogen for a bit more damage, to make mobs trip and fall, and to debuff their movement so it's hard for them to run away. 

Fold space when it's available to keep the area filled with mobs. 

Perhaps other primaries can make this kind of gameplay work better. But, mitigating the alpha by reducing mobs perception range seems like it could mechanically work fairly well. 

[Shin Magmus]

1 minute ago, Spectre7878 said:

So the bottom line for focused feedback is that the set is what it is and we should just not give feedback. What’s the point of these forums if we are not being heard. With in reason they should try to listen to the players. 

Well you're not the only one having some thoughts like this right now.  I can't understand why they'd say things like "power swaps are off the table" when Open Beta testing period just started.  Even before they did the release candidate 2 patch notes, they were already adamant that we weren't going to get any meaningful changes.  It does feel pointless.

[Dispari]

2 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

Well you're not the only one having some thoughts like this right now.  I can't understand why they'd say things like "power swaps are off the table" when Open Beta testing period just started.  Even before they did the release candidate 2 patch notes, they were already adamant that we weren't going to get any meaningful changes.  It does feel pointless.

 

I will also say the criticisms of the set and suggested changes here in open beta are identical to what closed beta looked like. Aside from the pet glow-up (which I do appreciate) and some power order changes, the set has not substantially changed.

[Rand0lk]

So, this is it. Not going to have a GOOD control set, with just a few changes. Just the one everyone requested, actually.

As a side but sad note, Arsenal Control will be the ONLY control set in the game with an AOE disorient AND without any meaningful aoe or cone immobilize. Heck, not even a single, lol.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

1 minute ago, Rand0lk said:

So, this is it. Not going to have a GOOD control set, with just a few changes. Just the one everyone requested, actually.

As a side but sad note, Arsenal Control will be the ONLY control set in the game with an AOE disorient AND without any meaningful aoe or cone immobilize. Heck, not even a single, lol.

Illusion control on doms?