Focused Feedback: Role Diversity Bonus

[Troo]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:55 AM, The Curator said:

Role Diversity Bonus

 More Prismatic Aether for everyone without any action needed! 

 

I am glad folks are still chiming in on this.

 

Potential fixes:

1. Scrap / shelve it.
2. Do all the work necessary to get this addition in line with expectations, documentation and character creator. (the roles are a mess)
3. Adjust it.

Lots of ideas have been presented on how to adjust this change.

If this trooly is a simple bonus that no one should care about, there's no pressing reason to push it out half baked.

 

Doing all the work necessary to align it with archetype expectations and documentation would seem daunting by the release date.

 

It seems logically to therefore take a pause on this. Let folks shift focus to other topics.

 

--- - ---

 

I'm just not sure how the keepers of the game's spirit can say if a player picks one archetype it is more pigeonholed than other archetypes.

It always seemed that at a minimum the villain archetypes were purpose built to cross classifications.

• Corruptors out-of-the-box can be ranged damage, control, and support. CoV manual.. Role: Ranged (not ranged damage)
• Broots aren't out-of-the-box better damage dealers than scrappers or better tankers than tanks.. but they do both. Is that a strength or a weakness.
  • "Brutes live to fight, and as a Brute, you will revel in hand-to-hand combat. With strong offensive power sets designed to inflict pain and impressive defenses to take it, you're the best there is in a straight melee fight. Protracted battles only make you mad, and the madder you get, the more damaging your attacks become. You do lack ranged attacks, which could leave you vulnerable to hit-and-run tactics without allies to cover you." - Page 8 of the CoV manual.. Role: Melee

 

If this is simply a "play the epic archetypes" motivator.. well this blew up in someone's face and I'd like a name. Give me a name. (I don't think this is what happened, but it's fun to say)

 

Edited January 28 by Troo

[BrandX]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

I am glad folks are still chiming in on this.

 

Potential fixes:

1. Scrap / shelve it.
2. Do all the work necessary to get this addition in line with expectations, documentation and character creator. (the roles are a mess)
3. Adjust it.

Lots of ideas have been presented on how to adjust this change.

If this trooly is a simple bonus that no one should care about, there's no pressing reason to push it out half baked.

 

Doing all the work necessary to align it with archetype expectations and documentation would seem daunting by the release date.

 

It seems logically to therefore take a pause on this. Let folks shift focus to other topics.

 

--- - ---

 

I'm just not sure how the keepers of the game's spirit can say if a player picks one archetype it is more pigeonholed than other archetypes.

It always seemed that at a minimum the villain archetypes were purpose built to cross classifications.

• Corruptors out-of-the-box can be ranged damage, control, and support. CoV manual.. Role: Ranged (not ranged damage)
• Broots aren't out-of-the-box better damage dealers than scrappers or better tankers than tanks.. but they do both. Is that a strength or a weakness.
  • "Brutes live to fight, and as a Brute, you will revel in hand-to-hand combat. With strong offensive power sets designed to inflict pain and impressive defenses to take it, you're the best there is in a straight melee fight. Protracted battles only make you mad, and the madder you get, the more damaging your attacks become. You do lack ranged attacks, which could leave you vulnerable to hit-and-run tactics without allies to cover you." - Page 8 of the CoV manual.. Role: Melee

 

If this is simply a "play the epic archetypes" motivator.. well this blew up in someone's face and I'd like a name. Give me a name. (I don't think this is what happened, but it's fun to say)

 

 

I wouldn't call Corruptors a Control Class even if you can pick sets that give some control.  Fire/Empathy isn't giving you control.

 

If anything, I'd move Corruptors to Support, not Range Damage.

 

Tanks:

Tank - Brute - PB - WS

 

Melee:

Scrapper - Stalker - PB - Soldier - Widow

 

Range:

Blaster - Sentinel - PB - WS - Soldier - Widow

 

Control:

Controller - Dominator - WS - Widow

 

Support:

Defender - Corruptor - Mastermind - Soldier

 

I wouldn't let Corruptor's Primary put them as Support.

I also wouldn't put one can turn their character into, to mean it can fall into the group bonus.

However, again, I'll just accept who ever answers the LFM call out 😛  That said, always love it when I get a group of 8 that's all different flavors of skittle 🙂

[Troo]

37 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I wouldn't let Corruptor's Primary put them as Support.
I also wouldn't put one can turn their character into, to mean it can fall into the group bonus.

 

/dark corruptors out-of-the-box just on SOs would beg to differ. One could argue Corruptors are control, support, and/or damage (scourge = damage).

But, that's part of the issue, isn't it? Trying to pigeon hole whole archetypes would seem to be folly.

Me coming up with a list of who goes where based on my opinion would be foolish.

 

 

Edited January 28 by Troo

[BrandX]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

/dark corruptors out-of-the-box just on SOs would beg to differ. One could argue they are control, support, and damage (scourge = damage).

But, that's part of the issue, isn't it? Trying to pigeon hole whole archetypes would seem to be folly.

Me coming up with a list of who goes where based on my opinion would be foolish.

 

Goes back to what I said.  You're picking a specific set.  That's not the Corruptor as a whole.  That's picking specific sets and then going "I'm a Troller now"
 

[ranagrande]

Controllers, Corruptors, and Masterminds all have support for their secondary sets.  In many (if not most) cases, masterminds have the weakest version of these powers.  Yet they're classified as support while the other two are not.

[golstat2003]

15 minutes ago, ranagrande said:

Controllers, Corruptors, and Masterminds all have support for their secondary sets.  In many (if not most) cases, masterminds have the weakest version of these powers.  Yet they're classified as support while the other two are not.

 

ding ding ding

[Andreah]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

If this is simply a "play the epic archetypes" motivator.. well this blew up in someone's face and I'd like a name. Give me a name. (I don't think this is what happened, but it's fun to say)

 

I don't want a name! :D

 

I do want to address this, since my read of the grapevine hints this direction too. If there aren't enough players playing any specific archetype, then address what may be putting them off from it -- don't obliquely address it in a manner like this system would seem to do. If there are specific mechanics or features of the class that most people don't like, see what can be done about them. 

 

If it turns out the theme or foundational mechanics of an archetype cause it to not be as popular as others, well so be it. Not every one likes the idea of being a merged kheldian in their character concept, nor does everyone find being a spider minion equally appealing. And the few who do are happy, or even proud, to march to that different drummer. I'd rather we not try to dangle carrots to get people to play things, all other things being equal, they'd rather not. And certainly not try to entice third parties to give those archetypes spots on teams that would otherwise go to people happily playing characters they do like.

 

Let's stop trying to make people play they way we want them to, and let them play what they want, and especially who they want to play with. 

[Wavicle]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:28 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

If Warshades and PB get to be across multiple roles then Masterminds need to cross ranged damage, tank, and support. 

 

WS and PB are Epics, and so they cover 3. MMs are not an Epic, so they only cover 1, in this system. MMs aren't Ranged Damage or Tank anyway. They are Pet Damage.

Which brings me to my point:

To aid Clarity for new players, the Role Diversity Bonus should ideally include ALL SIX of the roles mentioned in character creation. Currently Pet Damage is not one of them.

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, ranagrande said:

Controllers, Corruptors, and Masterminds all have support for their secondary sets.  In many (if not most) cases, masterminds have the weakest version of these powers.  Yet they're classified as support while the other two are not.

 

Yes, but it was explained, that the basic ATs count in one category.  Only the VEATS/HEATS count in three.  So, they have to go somewhere.  It's not based on strength in meta numbers on it.

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Andreah said:

I don't want a name! 😄

 

I do want to address this, since my read of the grapevine hints this direction too. If there aren't enough players playing any specific archetype, then address what may be putting them off from it -- don't obliquely address it in a manner like this system would seem to do. If there are specific mechanics or features of the class that most people don't like, see what can be done about them. 

 

If it turns out the theme or foundational mechanics of an archetype cause it to not be as popular as others, well so be it. Not every one likes the idea of being a merged kheldian in their character concept, nor does everyone find being a spider minion equally appealing. And the few who do are happy, or even proud, to march to that different drummer. I'd rather we not try to dangle carrots to get people to play things, all other things being equal, they'd rather not. And certainly not try to entice third parties to give those archetypes spots on teams that would otherwise go to people happily playing characters they do like.

 

Let's stop trying to make people play they way we want them to, and let them play what they want, and especially who they want to play with. 

 

I've never seen a lacking of ATs.  See them all, all the time.  Do I get them all on my team at one time?  Not always.

[ranagrande]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

Yes, but it was explained, that the basic ATs count in one category.  Only the VEATS/HEATS count in three.  So, they have to go somewhere.  It's not based on strength in meta numbers on it.

Yes, I saw the explanation, and I object to it.  Forcing ATs into categories this way is not good design.

[BrandX]

35 minutes ago, ranagrande said:

Yes, I saw the explanation, and I object to it.  Forcing ATs into categories this way is not good design.

It's not forcing anything.  It's giving a little meaningless reward that's getting people all tied in knots because it puts an AT in a category for the reward.  Like "Ahhh...my Dark/Dark Defender should be a Troller!"  

If your team happens to get make the requirements, then you can just go "Oh look at that.  Wheeeeee."  If not, shrug it off and go "No reward never bothered me anyways." (<---sing that to the tune of Let It Go tho...it'll make you smile).

 

[Wavicle]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:15 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

One role per AT for simplicity & fairness; There are too many ATs that would count for more and others that would count for less.

 

I understand and appreciate this idea, but if the goal, as stated, is to clarify team roles for new players, perhaps you should let go of this idea and let some ATs fill more roles than others, as they actually do in the game itself?

[Wavicle]

Something more like this:

 

Tank:
Tanker, Brute, Peacebringer, Warshade

 

Melee:
Scrapper, Stalker, Brute, Peacebringer, Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow

 

Ranged:
Blaster, Sentinel, Corruptor, Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow

 

Control:
Controller, Dominator, Warshade, Arachnos Widow

 

Support:
Defender, Corruptor, Controller, Mastermind, Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow

 

Pets:
Controller, Dominator, Mastermind, Warshade, Arachnos Soldier

[BrandX]

19 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Something more like this:

 

Tank:
Tanker, Brute, Peacebringer, Warshade

 

Melee:
Scrapper, Stalker, Brute, Peacebringer, Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow

 

Ranged:
Blaster, Sentinel, Corruptor, Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow

 

Control:
Controller, Dominator, Warshade, Arachnos Widow

 

Support:
Defender, Corruptor, Controller, Mastermind, Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow

 

Pets:
Controller, Dominator, Mastermind, Warshade, Arachnos Soldier

 

Honestly, I'm starting to think people are just looking to make it easier to get the reward more than anything.

Scrappers can have Confront and Taunt Aura.

[SupaFreak]

I haven't been through every single page yet, but has anyone mentioned that due to Power Pools and some Powersets - one could argue any AT could technically fill the role of Control (for example) in some capacity if the right powers are present?

 

I mean, I know my main - DP/Martial has 2 stun/hold that can keep most Bosses locked down.  And is KB considered control?

 

Then I think about my Ice/Energy Sentinel with 2 holds, a lot of slows and a PBAoE Sleep vs my Illusion/Time Controller who has 3 holds, a confuse and a little bit of slows.  They almost rank evenly in Control.  The Sentinel Tanks better than Ranged and the Controller actually Supports better than Controls.

 

Then I ask myself... well isn't Taunt a form of Control too?  My Tanker with 2 Taunts (1 from Presence) can keep 2 AVs that are spread apart "controlled" by focusing on him.  *shrug*  I mean, it is considered a Status Effect under Resistance, isn't it?

 

I see both sides of the argument on this but to me CoH seems like such a complex web of power possibilities to bring someone on and say "you're X and you're Y" when sometimes my /MA blaster who's IO'd out does more melees damage than an upcoming Scrapper who's defense focused.

It don't matter to me whatever the decision ends up being.  I'll form teams and tell them we're not going to worry about the bonus - if we get it, great - if not, oh well.

 

Then it makes me wonder "Are there plans to do the opposite down the line for those of us that love themed teams/TFs?  Like all-Blaster, etc?"  o.O

[Shin Magmus]

I am just amazed people are this mad about this change and still asking for it to be scrapped, when it's this inconsequential.  I get it, most ATs are a mix of different roles and the mix is even more varied based on specific powersets... but like this is a minor change and small potatoes compared to fixing new powersets and other aspects that affect the game in the upcoming patch. 

 

From the beginning I've been in the "1 PA reward lul, I will mostly ignore this" crowd and it's not going to ever affect me as much as gutting my Stalker's performance will for example. 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, ShinMagmus said:

I am just amazed people are this mad about this change and still asking for it to be scrapped, when it's this inconsequential.  I get it, most ATs are a mix of different roles and the mix is even more varied based on specific powersets... but like this is a minor change and small potatoes compared to fixing new powersets and other aspects that affect the game in the upcoming patch. 

 

From the beginning I've been in the "1 PA reward lul, I will mostly ignore this" crowd and it's not going to ever affect me as much as gutting my Stalker's performance will for example. 

it’s because there has never been something in the game that encouraged specific team layouts before. It is a minor thing, but if there’s going to be something like this, it would be nice if it reflected the actual diversity of approaches to playing the game.

 

 To be honest though, although there are adjustments to it I would like, I’ll also be happy with it implemented as is. I think it’s a neat idea.

[Wavicle]

Maybe the only change that I would actually suggest, only a small one, would be Corruptors go into Support so that no Role has fewer than 4 options covering it?

Yea, that looks good. Move Corruptor to Support and call it a day.

 

Oh but I see that would mess with the "original villain ATs hit all roles" thing...

Edited January 29 by Wavicle

[PoptartsNinja]

I suspect the reason why Defenders and Masterminds were put in support is because they're comparatively rare, while a lot of teams run a lot of corruptors anyway. Which, I suspect, is the same reason why the EATs/VEATs count towards multiple things.

 

I think this misses the mark, because it prioritizes some rare ATs over others. Stalkers and Sentinels are uncommon too, but they get put in the same categories as blasters and scrappers.

 

I don't think this is the right way to encourage people to play rare ATs, but I'm not sure what I'd do instead. If corruptors are overperforming, maybe their buff/debuffs need a slight nerf. If Defenders are underperforming maybe they need some sort of buff? Masterminds are good but unforgiving, maybe they need some scaling pet resistance below level 20 or 30 to make the early game less frustrating so people can see them start to shine? A 'teamed with a rare AT' bonus would be more straightforward than this, and the 'rare ATs' could be adjusted over time (or even per server) based on what server stats say people are actually playing. And if an AT suddenly turns rare again the moment it's not on the 'rare AT' table, then that AT probably needs some sort of buff.

 

I just know the bonus isn't enough for me to ever worry about team comp; but at the same time I know it will make some of my SG mates anxious or not play characters they'd prefer to play because they'd be "letting everyone down" by not getting the bonus. And I'm sure we've all teamed with people who no amount of saying "we're fine, you don't need to switch" will convince to not switch, even over something so small.

[Wavicle]

But hey, if there's not enough support for this idea to go through, maybe instead reevaluate the listings in the Roles in the Character Creation screen?

Like, add Warshade and Widow to Control, add Warshade to Pets, add Peacebringer to Melee, that sort of thing?

[Wavicle]

Or, you could add a line to each of the Roles in the listing that explains just a little:

 

Tank: A primary function of your Archetype in a team is to attract as much enemy attention as possible to protect your teammates.

 

Melee Damage: A primary function of your Archetype in a team is to do damage in hand to hand combat with the enemy.

 

Ranged Damage: A primary function of your Archetype in a team is to do damage to the enemy from a distance.

 

Control: A primary function of your Archetype in a team is to prevent enemies from taking action, or even turn them against each other.

Support: A primary function of your Archetype in a team is to lend aid to teammates or pets, directly or by debilitating the enemy.

Edited January 29 by Wavicle

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Maybe the only change that I would actually suggest, only a small one, would be Corruptors go into Support so that no Role has fewer than 4 options covering it?

Yea, that looks good. Move Corruptor to Support and call it a day.

 

Oh but I see that would mess with the "original villain ATs hit all roles" thing...

 

That's what I put as the suggestion just a few posts up.

[SupaFreak]

5 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

I am just amazed people are this mad about this change and still asking for it to be scrapped, when it's this inconsequential.

My feedback (as shared by others):  It's not inconsequential at all.  The AH value of PAs is nothing to sneeze at...

 

I'm very much a Rewards-focused guy - but one who loves the CoH community more than the Rewards, so unless that day I'm after PAs - I won't exclude anyone from my team.

 

Not every Rewards-focused type is going to be like me though and I would venture to say this is *very likely* going to encourage a behavior we don't typically see here in CoH - despite its good intentions.

 

If this does make it out of Open Beta, I'll do everything in my power not to let it affect my approach to the game... but I won't be surprised if it ends up being detrimental to what it was hoping to accomplish in the first place.

PSA:  If you do sneeze at Prismatic Aether AH values, please wipe it down with a soft cloth afterwards... soiled, if need be.

 

[kenlon]

The sad part is, if this had been called something like "Archetype Diversity Bonus", it probably would have gone over fine. But people saw "role" as constraining what the archetypes could do, and started flipping out.