A little interested but wondering if the mega nerfs are still in this version of the game.

[Oubliette_Red]

8 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Nay. I'm as guilty as some here for the snarky answers (@Snarky ever reaching pervasive influence, mebbe? Lets go with that) but even if Comet may have not done the best introduction they still seem genuine.

 

It's up to us not to fan it instead of paying lip service to being 'one of the best communities around'.

 

This is why I didn't put on my Snarky™ Hat and just said to go play the game.

 

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Oubliette_Red said:

 

This is why I didn't put on my Snarky™ Hat and just said to go play the game.

 

 

You were a better Oubliette than me 😄

[Ignatz the Insane]

It's always a bit perplexing to me just how personally some people take nerfs...in any game.  Especially ones that are 20 years old.  Maybe let it go?  Seems like a waste of emotional energy.

[ZemX]

Seriously, the back and forth about this academic argument is beyond useless.   It sounds like it was a hyper-specific problem with an out-of-date build after a bunch of big changes to the early game.  

 

Ancient History.

 

@CometCometh, here's what you do:

 

(1) Read @Sovera's Fire Armor Tanker guides to learn the what's what of today's Fire Tanker.

 

(2) Join us for...

And (3):

[Snarky]

Cosmet half of what you talked about was before i started the game. Good versus Evil. I played for years on live until shutdown 

 

Maybe the HC staff have nerfed a couple things.  They have un nerfed a couple more.  AR just recently.  Stone armor. 
 

HC staff cares for the game and, I believe, are trying to stay true to the last published copy. With careful and small changes to balance and develop play.  My two inf

Edited January 18 by Snarky

[Doc_Scorpion]

23 minutes ago, CometCometh said:

Really? I'll just leave this nugget. 

You mean the nugget that completely fails to match your specific claims?  (Those specific claims being that you were unable to handle mobs -10 to your level, and that "most builds at higher levels couldn't handle basic mobs of equal level without taking forever or risk of being defeated".)

 

24 minutes ago, CometCometh said:

The fact that burn had been given a tohit check and i didn't slot accuracy probably would lend credence a bit to my claim there.

If you didn't slot accuracy, that lends credence to the people who've pointed out that you likely had a bad build and/or failed to adapt to the changes.

Anyhow, I'll repeat what's been said before:  Whatever your mistaken beliefs about the past are, they're are not applicable to the current game.  All but the crappiest build and most incompetent player can handle -10 mobs.  Any reasonable build and decently played toon has a decent chance against standard spawns.  (It's always been possible to get in over your head depending on specifics - but that's not necessarily a flaw in the game.)

The path forward is one of your choosing...  Go hunt.  Kill Skuls.  Or stew over the perceptions of past injustices.

Me?  I'm gonna go kill Skuls.

[CometCometh]

23 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You mean the nugget that completely fails to match your specific claims?  (Those specific claims being that you were unable to handle mobs -10 to your level, and that "most builds at higher levels couldn't handle basic mobs of equal level without taking forever or risk of being defeated".)

 

If you didn't slot accuracy, that lends credence to the people who've pointed out that you likely had a bad build and/or failed to adapt to the changes.

Anyhow, I'll repeat what's been said before:  Whatever your mistaken beliefs about the past are, they're are not applicable to the current game.  All but the crappiest build and most incompetent player can handle -10 mobs.  Any reasonable build and decently played toon has a decent chance against standard spawns.  (It's always been possible to get in over your head depending on specifics - but that's not necessarily a flaw in the game.)

The path forward is one of your choosing...  Go hunt.  Kill Skuls.  Or stew over the perceptions of past injustices.

Me?  I'm gonna go kill Skuls.

 

The nugget being that he agreed I was gimped. I didn't say I couldn't "handle" lower level mobs either. I said it took minutes at a time trying. Meaning I could "handle" them, it was just a waste of time. I think you and others have completely misread what I wrote and came to your conclusions. The character could still function, it was just GIMPED as Fonebot even agreed and a few others stated there was a period where the nerfs to my character would have made it under performing. That is you and others screwing up and making strawmen. There was more to it then the simple answer of "slot accuracy" even back then. I'll point to the one period of time where ice patch had a single check for slipping per mob ever. That made ice patch basically worthless as a power at one point. You couldn't slot anything in to fix it. I specifically remember it. It was also I think later fixed back up to a more reasonable check for slipping in between its original super slippage checking of 4 per tick versus one check ever. 

[CometCometh]

38 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

It's always a bit perplexing to me just how personally some people take nerfs...in any game.  Especially ones that are 20 years old.  Maybe let it go?  Seems like a waste of emotional energy.

 

Because I enjoyed the game when it wasn't over nerfed? I don't want to waste energy and time on a game I do not enjoy. I specifically left back then for a reason. Several patches had crushed several builds in particular. I was asking if the game was still in that state or something more playable and thus enjoyable. It is a fair and relevant question. Why even make this snarky and elitist comment in the first place if you have nothing valid to input?

[High_Beam]

Logistics!

 

[Heatstroke]

On 1/17/2024 at 3:03 PM, CometCometh said:

 

It was awhile ago, and yah, I power leveled by fire/ice tanker level 30+ killing level 50+ enemies at a time. Whole zones. Literally I remember going around a max level hazard zone at 30ish, running through the map hitting provoke on every stupid group I saw and generating a massive train of enemies until I basically had the whole zone. Jump in a dumpster, watch everything jump in after me stacking in the same spot, and then die to burn and ice patch. It was quite silly OP even back then. They nerfed it down through the years and many patches. At one point mega nerfed it to the point that when I logged on later at level 50, I couldn't kill lower level 40 regular mobs with the character. 

 

I played this game since Issue 2. And there is  no way you couldn't beat a mob -10 level from you. 

 

Here is what I would do if I were you. Log onto the test server. On the test server you can make a level 50 character and outfit in with basic S0's

 

Then go fight some mobs... 

 

Then decide if you want to play again or not

Edited January 18 by Heatstroke

[PeregrineFalcon]

Thanks for that, High Beam. Man, it's been a long time since I've seen those trucks. *signs for fuel delivery*

 

Ok, Comet I'm sorry that you're still upset over Enhancement Diversification. I don't think that anyone was happy with it, for a lot of reasons. However...

1. None of us had anything to do with it, we're players just like you are.
2. The current developer team didn't have anything to do with it either.
3. Yes, the game is very playable and enjoyable.
4. It's been explained to you multiple times in this thread that with IOs and Incarnate powers you can make your character just as powerful as they were before ED, except for the aggro limit.
5. It happened 18 years ago. Get over it already. Walk it off.

 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, CometCometh said:

 

Because I enjoyed the game when it wasn't over nerfed? I don't want to waste energy and time on a game I do not enjoy. I specifically left back then for a reason. Several patches had crushed several builds in particular. I was asking if the game was still in that state or something more playable and thus enjoyable. It is a fair and relevant question. Why even make this snarky and elitist comment in the first place if you have nothing valid to input?

I have to ask

Just how long would you have enjoyed a game where you could easily herd and kill an entire map of +20 enemies?

 

Sure it would have been fun for a little while, but I have to imagine you would have eventually wanted some type of challenge

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

All but the crappiest build and most incompetent player can handle -10 mobs.

 

It's literally impossible to build a character that takes minutes to defeat a mob ten levels lower.

 

The purple patch means that a character's base, unslotted ToHit caps out at -4 levels, at 95%.  No amount of bad slotting will stop them hitting with the lowest accuracy powers in the game.

 

The purple patch also means that attacks are doing 2.10x their base damage.  Even entirely unslotted attacks will be performing better than if they were slotted with three level 50 Common IOs.

 

This has all been true since Issue 1.

 

Edited January 18 by Grouchybeast

[tidge]

FWIW, it is possible to face +20 level enemies in CoV, but you have to do it at level 20.

 

(Inside an instanced mission, I mean)

Edited January 18 by tidge

[Crysis]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

I have to ask

Just how long would you have enjoyed a game where you could easily herd and kill an entire map of +20 enemies?

 

Sure it would have been fun for a little while, but I have to imagine you would have eventually wanted some type of challenge

 

To be fair, and it’s not for everyone mind you but….

 

It’s 20+ years later and I -immensely- enjoyed being able to herd an entire map, pull them all to a dumpster, Ice Patch + Burn and maybe a little buddy pocket Kin would jump in to help out.

 

Would I have done that forever?  I mean, I did do it for months, maybe more than a year, i don’t really remember.  And the nerfs bothered me a bunch…but I’m still here!

 

Part of the real PVP of any MMO was always Players vs. The Devs.  They’d code a nerf, we’d compensate.  They’d code another, we’d exploit.  On an on until some Dev gets pissed that you aren’t playing the game the way they intended and they ban your accounts.  I actually had that happen to one of my three accounts (Yes I was one of the monkey exploiters if you remember that time period).  But I kept two paid accounts.  And…20+ years later…I’m still here.  Am I reformed?  Nope…I just adapted.  There’s some stuff I really disliked but not enough to make me rage quit.  Others….they rage quit.  

 

At first, ED and then GDN and then all the fury directed at AE really pissed me off.  And IO’s were confusing as hell to me originally.  Until I realized IO’s were kinda the Dev’s way of saying “You can have SOME nice things…but you have to work for them.”

 

Regardless, never underestimate what defines “fun” for someone else versus yourself.  There are many who would still be here even with “City of Blasters” or “City of Regen Scrappers” were the meta.  Heck, the memories I have of perma-MOG builds and literally HERDS of flaming monkeys are what kept me coming here all these years.  Yes, they are but memories…but memories make nostalgia and that makes for pleasant gaming.  

 

After all…why do so many of us still play retro games with craptacular graphics?  Because its a pleasant pastime.  So was herding and burning once upon a time in Paragon City.

[Sovera]

9 minutes ago, Crysis said:

 

To be fair, and it’s not for everyone mind you but….

 

It’s 20+ years later and I -immensely- enjoyed being able to herd an entire map, pull them all to a dumpster, Ice Patch + Burn and maybe a little buddy pocket Kin would jump in to help out.

 

Would I have done that forever?  I mean, I did do it for months, maybe more than a year, i don’t really remember.  And the nerfs bothered me a bunch…but I’m still here!

 

You've hit it. At some point I found the peak gaming was doing endless runs of Mephisto in Diablo 2. I would wake, sometimes early, then grab my crapstatic amazon, teleport to the map, wander around to find the entrance to the third level, kill the boss, collect my crap loot (I wasn't even geared for magic finding, or had the fancy teleport armors, or a good fast killing character), log off, repeat until midnight.

 

And to the me at that time that was the best thing EVER!

 

I don't think it's going to be fair comparing our 20 year ago selves to our present selves.

[Cyri]

On 1/18/2024 at 6:39 PM, Crysis said:

 

To be fair, and it’s not for everyone mind you but….

 

It’s 20+ years later and I -immensely- enjoyed being able to herd an entire map, pull them all to a dumpster, Ice Patch + Burn and maybe a little buddy pocket Kin would jump in to help out.

 

Would I have done that forever?  I mean, I did do it for months, maybe more than a year, i don’t really remember.  And the nerfs bothered me a bunch…but I’m still here!

 

Part of the real PVP of any MMO was always Players vs. The Devs.  They’d code a nerf, we’d compensate.  They’d code another, we’d exploit.  On an on until some Dev gets pissed that you aren’t playing the game the way they intended and they ban your accounts.  I actually had that happen to one of my three accounts (Yes I was one of the monkey exploiters if you remember that time period).  But I kept two paid accounts.  And…20+ years later…I’m still here.  Am I reformed?  Nope…I just adapted.  There’s some stuff I really disliked but not enough to make me rage quit.  Others….they rage quit.  

 

At first, ED and then GDN and then all the fury directed at AE really pissed me off.  And IO’s were confusing as hell to me originally.  Until I realized IO’s were kinda the Dev’s way of saying “You can have SOME nice things…but you have to work for them.”

 

Regardless, never underestimate what defines “fun” for someone else versus yourself.  There are many who would still be here even with “City of Blasters” or “City of Regen Scrappers” were the meta.  Heck, the memories I have of perma-MOG builds and literally HERDS of flaming monkeys are what kept me coming here all these years.  Yes, they are but memories…but memories make nostalgia and that makes for pleasant gaming.  

 

After all…why do so many of us still play retro games with craptacular graphics?  Because its a pleasant pastime.  So was herding and burning once upon a time in Paragon City.

 

CometCometh, I quit when gdn hit.  But, I am here now, due in large part to the Homecoming team.  The Homecoming team did a good job and introduced a lot of quality-of-life features (and at least a few buffs that I know about) that make the game even more enjoyable.  Give it a try. 

 

Whatever your choice, best wishes.

Edited March 9 by Jynu

[Crysis]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I don't think it's going to be fair comparing our 20 year ago selves to our present selves.

 

No, it wouldn't.  20 years ago I suffered -immensely- from Anxiety.  Like....cripplingly so.  Herd-and-burn/rinse/repeat was an incredibly (mindless to some) calming playstyle for me.  Something about completing the entire map, knowing nothing was left, and done so efficiently.  It let me relax the way others might do so from alcohol or drugs.  I would glaze over, feel calm coming over me and do it repeatedly, sometimes during the day while otherwise tending to work/life stuff.  It was therapuetic.

 

20 years later, I don't need that, I've found many other healthy (sometimes FAR more healthy) means to deal with my lifelong battles with anxiety.  I'm actually very thankful this game came back in 2019...just before COVID.  Because COVID lockdown drove me bonkers with anxiety.  I'm sure I wasn't alone for that.

 

But when the dev team upset my anxiety-reducing style of gameplay I sort of freaked out as there wasn't much else on the market to scratch that itch.  Luckily for me...I perservered.

 

At any rate, people who compare to the glory days often totally miss the glory right in front of them.  You can't go through life navigating through memories of the past with your eyes closed to the abundance of the present.  It doesn't work that way.

[CometCometh]

12 hours ago, Jynu said:

Perfect!

 

Typed out this long post adding my own thoughts, but in the end you hit most of the key points I would have addressed, and probably with more positivity than I would have done. 

 

CometCometh, I quit when gdn hit.  But, I am here now, due in large part to the Homecoming team.  The Homecoming team did a great job and introduced a lot of quality-of-life features (and at least a few buffs that I know about) that make the game even more enjoyable.  Give it a try.  You may find yourself surprised, as I did. 

 

Whatever your choice, Happy Gaming and best wishes.

 

I am. I have hit 16 already in a few hours. Took me a bit to relearn stuff though. Still feel like I am relearning. All these new quests lines and cut scenes are NOT from when I last played. They are quite enjoyable. The fact I have like 6 "attacks" to rotate through with the prestige stuff is game changing in the early levels right now. Because early levels back in the day sucked for everyone. Most builds couldn't get their "build" going until they reached between level 18 through 24 depending on the build. 

 

I don't  mind grinding. I actually had a blast clearing whole hazard zones with different builds before all the nerfs. I also had a lot of fun after the initial nerfs because I expected them. I had no problem for the first year+ of the game. When they brought out PVP I literally was number 1 and dominated all the matches back then. Why? Prescence was so OP in pvp for tankers back then. Literally NO ONE ELSE TOOK IT, but I did. Why? Fear in PVE sucks for tankers. Fear back then in PVP literally allowed me to kill everyone by myself in an arena when combined with provoke and the damage output of burn. It was dumb. I know why they nerfed it. The original nerfs though gutted the abilities completely though so they couldn't actually be used in PVP when people were complaining about me in the forums. I had huge ass threads literally complaining about me and my build specifically in PVP when it came out. As @Crysis mentioned, while I had fun, when the build got completely gutted along with other builds I had going on just about as strong then I stopped having fun. I am fine with BALANCE. I am not fine with knee jerk nerfs that gimp builds and play styles. That did happen. I know most of the players in this thread can't believe what I am talking about, but I doubt most of them had over a dozen level 40-50 characters in the first year like I did. I left from boredom, other games out there, and the over nerfs to several specific builds I had back then. 

 

I think I know where the disconnect with my post and other posters is happening here. I know the exact state of the game when I left it. Why? It was my last memory of the game. Other posters here either didn't play during the time I played or they played the game for longer. Think of it like that. I bet everyone here can remember their high school graduation day and ceremony right? Can you remember every day or even a specific date fully 100% from a random day in highschool from 20 years ago? If for some reason high school wasn't over 20 years ago, then use middle school, or elementary school as a substitute. Point being, you will remember the last memory of a given thing far longer than something accumulated at random in the middle. I know the nerfed/gimped state several of my characters and builds were last left in. I remember the reason for leaving was for mostly the heavy handed nerfs.

 

Also, I hated playing MMOs that basically only cater to group play and screw over solo play. That was the reason I originally fell in LOVE with City of Heroes. I could make a build that could solo 99% of the content and be heroic feeling in doing so. Games like WoW, Neverquest, Neverquest2, and a crap ton of other games basically stopped people from soloing fairly early on in the level progression. Take Neverquest for example. I hated the fact that you literally started a character at level 1 running around a forest solo killing rats, bats, and goblins. You reach max level and the high end dungeons are full of rats, bats, and goblins that will wipe you out solo and even whole parties sometimes. Lots of games were the reverse power fantasy. The higher level you get the actual worse any given character's power is in relation to what they fight. Its a dumb concept. City of Heroes didn't have that. I mean I still love group content and the idea of raids, big boss battles, and epic siege style combat. That is fun too. 

 

I was pointing out that at one point the devs of the game of City of Heroes had decided to try undo what made them stand apart from the competition and nerf the power fantasy. They literally stated in the forums what I said earlier about trying to balance all builds and power sets around being able to only solo 3 regular equal level mobs. I am glad that design philosophy eventually changed after I left. It was a dumb philosophy they had for awhile. 

 

Right now I am having a blast with my newly minted Fire/Ice tanker. Liking all the content I never experienced before. I don't feel under powered or over powered. I hope that continues through the progression of the character up to max level. 

Edited January 19 by CometCometh